Dependence and Diamonds in the rough

[IAmZon]

Interesting point and deserves a separate discussion ...

"There is another concept in Russian, something along the lines "man who seeks to marry an orphan," in a milder version - "wants to marry provincial girl"/"осчастливить провинциалку." By definition, a man who fits into this category has something wrong about him. Basically this is a man who is intentionally looking for underprivileged woman, not necessarily a woman with bad manners, more of a "diamond from the dirt" who would have poor prospects in life otherwise, and who would be eternally grateful for him, but most importantly - he will be able to believe that he gave this woman everything. In return, (in the extreme version) the woman should "kiss his feet" and worship him, be an ideal homely wife, etc etc.   
Of course, things do not usually work out that way, sooner or later the woman turns out to be not what he expected, or the guys outgrows his dreams and marries someone more compatible with himself, but the instances when men from cities have the mindset "I will make this poor, humble, but noble in her virtues girl happy whereas city girls are all spoiled" is not that seldom among Ukrainian guys. Cannot speak for Russian guys because I know only several of them, but I'd suspect the same happening in Russia.


Why is it not very normal? Imagine for a moment that otherwise fine woman (professional, good looking, etc.) specifically wants to marry a disabled man. She finds a man, whom she considers to be disabled, and she always reminds the man that he is disabled. The only problem is that the man isn't really disabled, and he isn't staying with this woman because he needs her, he married her because  - maybe because he was stupid, and he is helping her with everything.

ON DEPENDENCE:  This comes in degrees as a result of career and family.  A brain surgeon is very pre-occupied almost all the time. A woman with 5 children is similarly occupied - but in very different directions.   On a separate thread I suggested that I would not be too excited with the prospects of marrying a woman who had a 60 hour a week job.  The idea of us at the diner table both checking our text and emails does not interest me LOL.    The polar opposite idea is that a woman is KEPT, and dependent for everything by the man.   What happen to normal?   How about being a teacher or working for government:)  Or an online business?  There are many ways to earn a few grand a month and occupy 30 hours a week, so a person feels like they are useful and not TRAPPED in a house. 


ON DIAMONDS IN THE ROUGH:  In the USA, anyone with effort, has a chance - if one is beautiful, even more so.   Not so in South America.  It is VERY classist.  When I first saw this, it offended my sensibilities and ideas of fairness.  But, after I spent more time in Brazil and Colombia, I began to accept the sad truth that many / most of those that are brought up in poverty are damaged at the core.   That is why often times when a man sees a Beauty Queen, Drop Dead Gorgeous, young woman - the first impression is "little devil".   Again this is a sad generalization, but grounded in more than a little truth.   How does Eastern Europe / Russia differ?


I recently registered on a Russian dating site and was contacted by a woman that is gorgeous.  She is 40.  She is well educated.  She knows more languages than I (which is not that difficult).  She is well traveled.  She has a nice job.  She has a grown daughter of 20 years.  She is divorced.  She seems interesting.  TO ME, she would make an excellent neighbor or friend.  But, I have not had any children.  I am not ready to shift gears into middle age, semi-retirement.  I am not crazy about the idea of having a 20 year old step daughter.  I want a DO-OVER:) 

[Doll]

So, you want a younger woman with no kids? There are many of them.
How old are you,rivardco?

[Doll]

What happen to normal?

Nothing- it is still there.

[mies]

So, you want a younger woman with no kids? There are many of them.
How old are you,rivardco?

his profile says he is 47.

[mies]

But, after I spent more time in Brazil and Colombia, I began to accept the sad truth that many / most of those that are brought up in poverty are damaged at the core.   That is why often times when a man sees a Beauty Queen, Drop Dead Gorgeous, young woman - the first impression is "little devil".   Again this is a sad generalization, but grounded in more than a little truth.   How does Eastern Europe / Russia differ?

this part is somewhat unclear.
- do you mean that there are no drop dead gorgeous women in the upper socio-economical classes?
- do you mean that all beautiful women, no matter what class they are from, are spoiled from the core?
- do you mean that only girls with very low socio-economical background are drop-dead gorgeous, but they are damaged at the core because they grew up in poverty?

Please, explain 

No, in Russia or FSU drop dead gorgeous women are not perceived as "little devil," definitely not always, and the perception of "beast in beautiful shell" highly correlates with how do you define the "beauty" and whom you consider to be drop dead gorgeous.

For example, this girl:

will be perceived as a little devil no matter if anyone thinks she is gorgeous or not.

This one:

if dressed modestly and acting appropriately, most likely will not be perceived as "little devil"

[Doll]

his profile says he is 47.

Then what's the "middle age" in the USA?
 rivardco is not ready " to shift gears" 

[IAmZon]

Guilty! 47.  However, I have grown younger over the last 4 years. My age has grown to be a peculiarity to me in the USA!

I don't care one way or the other.  I live mostly in Colombia, South America.   There, my age really does not matter at all.  My friends are professional, businessmen, academics, or in the arts.  My peer group is 30's / 40's.  Rarely do I meet or date a woman older than 32 - mostly significantly younger.  If these women were to guess my age, they say 35 - 40.  I don't think their young minds can envision 45 LOL

HOWEVER, When I am in the USA, it is a very different world.  I will be 48 later this year, and that number just does not seem to fit me.  I met in Vegas a couple weeks ago.  I have known him for 20 years.  We were talking to some girls and he said "I am 40".   I thought WTF?!?!?   I asked him later about this and he said, "Yeah, I have gotten to that place where it is best just to cut off 8 years."


SHHHH.   Am I at that same place:)

[IAmZon]

this part is somewhat unclear. - do you mean that there are no drop dead gorgeous women in the upper socio-economical classes?- do you mean that all beautiful women, no matter what class they are from, are spoiled from the core?- do you mean that only girls with very low socio-economical background are drop-dead gorgeous, but they are damaged at the core because they grew up in poverty? 

Very important clarifications are needed ...


1, There are certainly very beautiful women from upper stratas.  In fact only these women are eligible for serious beauty contests.  And there are contests and shows ALL THE TIME.
2, Spoiled is different from Damaged.  Again, only 30% of the population is middle to upper class, so the mass of humanity is poor or damn poor.  The rich people do not mix with the rest of the population.   But, in parks you will see poor girls that are very very pretty trying to get attention from those in the other classes.  It surprised me that these girls would think they hit a gold mine if they met a drug dealer with multiple girl friends.  Many of these girls would prefer that to meeting a local lawyer or surgeon - one example of why I said "Damaged" - not Spoiled.
3, MANY of these people are not damaged by poverty, but the affects of poverty.  Brutality, rape, abuse, lack of education, lack of love and formation of core values and decision- making abilities, for example.

[Doll]

Well, girls, go ahead now.

[Doll]

I understand that you're Colombian?
So, you live in Colombia for months. Where are you going to "keep" your Russian wife?

[Doll]

Ok, I see now- rivardco is Colombian with the US citizenship. He is looking for a Russian wife.
Do you tell these RW that you "live mostly in Colombia"?
I don't know many women in Russia who want to move to the country of your origin.
You will find a woman but we don't guarantee you she will stay.   Though, who knows...

[mies]

Very important clarifications are needed ...


1, There are certainly very beautiful women from upper stratas.  In fact only these women are eligible for serious beauty contests.  And there are contests and shows ALL THE TIME.
2, Spoiled is different from Damaged.  Again, only 30% of the population is middle to upper class, so the mass of humanity is poor or damn poor.  The rich people do not mix with the rest of the population.   But, in parks you will see poor girls that are very very pretty trying to get attention from those in the other classes.  It surprised me that these girls would think they hit a gold mine if they met a drug dealer with multiple girl friends.  Many of these girls would prefer that to meeting a local lawyer or surgeon - one example of why I said "Damaged" - not Spoiled.
3, MANY of these people are not damaged by poverty, but the affects of poverty.  Brutality, rape, abuse, lack of education, lack of love and formation of core values and decision- making abilities, for example.

Thank you. Which strata do you come from (your childhood, parents, etc), if you don't mind me asking?

I understand the difference between "damaged" and "spoiled." In the description of females these two words can antonyms, but in a very long term, "spoiled" can gradually transform to "damaged" too, although in a different way than "damaged" by poverty.

And I still do not understand why do you look for Russian women if there are many drop dead gorgeous Colombian women, and American women too, from all strata (according to you) willing to make you their husband.

[mies]

Ok, I see now- rivardco is Colombian with the US citizenship. He is looking for a Russian wife.
Do you tell these RW that you "live mostly in Colombia"?
I don't know many women in Russia who want to move to the country of your origin.
You will find a woman but we don't guarantee you she will stay.   Though, who knows...

IMHO, definitely fewer, than women who want to move to USA.

[Doll]

(just to talk)))))
Mies, some men are disappointed in women who they know (in this case Americans and Colombians), so they think that it is very different in some other culture.
Russia seems so unknown and exotic so they hope.....
Sorry, rivardco, these are just my educated observations.
Russians are definitely different but not the way you're seeking.
Though, again, all depends on your personality (that we don't actually know).
 

[mies]

Rarely do I meet or date a woman older than 32 - mostly significantly younger. 

You must be leading a very interesting lifestyle if you rarely meet women older than 32 
Also, I didn't know that in academics, and in professional circles they retire female faculty/employees when they turn 33. Gosh, good that I don't live in Colombia, or they'd make me retire in less than 3 months 

Rivardco, I am teasing you, but some of your words are really funny, in a cute sort of way.

[mies]

(just to talk)))))
Mies, some men are disappointed in women who they know (in this case Americans and Colombians), so they think that it is very different in some other culture.

I think so too.
and some people (men or women) look for the cause of their "hard to please" nature in the wrong place 

[Doll]

 Ну шо- будем лечить больного или пусть живет?

 

[pitbull]

Ну шо- будем лечить больного или пусть живет?

I'd say there is a good chance he'll find what he's looking for. Stranger things have happened in this MOB business. Look at BillyB for example

[IAmZon]

Again, clarification.  I am an American.  I divorced 4.5 years ago.  After divorce, I dated three girls in the USA from Eastern Europe and Russia.  I decided to travel and see what's up.  I traveled extensively in Central, South America ... learned different cultures, language dance, you name it.   I am able to work where there is internet.  I would not mind living in Panama 50% (or the isle of Nevis in the Caribbean, or some similar place) of the year and St. Petersburg, Florida, 50% ... where my life time friends live and my every growing family; dad mom, sisters, brother in laws, nieces and nephews.

1,

Also, I didn't know that in academics, and in professional circles they retire female faculty/employees when they turn 33. Gosh, good that I don't live in Colombia

  Yeah, Colombia can be a majore TURN ON for some people.  It has been for me.  I leave again on Tuesday for a month.

2,

Well, girls, go ahead now.

  I certainly do not intend to offend, or insult.  Those are just my observations from a variety of countries in this hemisphere ... and the only purpose in my raising them was to receive comparisons. that is all.

3,

So, you live in Colombia for months. Where are you going to "keep" your Russian wife?

  WOOO .... slow down. I would prefer to start at an honest friendship, and move from there.

4,

Thank you. Which strata do you come from (your childhood, parents, etc), if you don't mind me asking?

  I was raised in St. Petersburg, Florida.  Middle class.  I  have been an entrepreneur for the last 25 years, and accordingly have been well off at times, and less well off in other times.   I am on the upswing now, but I do not want to become imbalanced in pursuit of more wealth as I have done in the past.  I would prefer to work less, have less stress, and make do with good income - but, that is subject to change.

HARD TO PLEASE -  Well, I am more selective than I deserve to be - that is for sure.  Having said that, timing plays the biggest role. Certainly it is possible for me to find a good woman in Colombia - OR USA for that matter - but harder than you think! Please remember, I am hope to marriage thus sincere.  But, I am not desperate to find a wife this year from Russia - or my head will explode. I think people here often take themselves and their preoccupation with finding a wife too seriously.

[Doll]

Pit, what about BillyB? What did I miss?

[SMS60]

Is the "pink forum" broke down this week

[Doll]

He is looking for honest friendship on Russian international dating sites.
I find it very interesting.

[Doll]

Is the "pink forum" broke down this week

It is still there.

[Gator]

Rivardco,
I am beginning to worry about you.  IIRC, you told me years ago that you were never married.  However, you did say you were in a long relationship in which you lived together.  I also recasll you saying something about her being Hispanic and having a child.
 
If that is indeed the case, I understand why you call the separation a divorce. Yet, for some reason, you never took the big step of marriage.

I mention this not tobelittle you or even to criticize you, but to help.  You have attracted the attention of several RW.  They can offer you some special insights that men, even experienced men may miss.  The RW at RWD need to understand the truth to make valid suggestions.   Otherwise, they may come up with some baloney such as thinking you are Columbian.   
 

[Lily]

ON DIAMONDS IN THE ROUGH:  In the USA, anyone with effort, has a chance - if one is beautiful, even more so.   Not so in South America.  It is VERY classist.  When I first saw this, it offended my sensibilities and ideas of fairness.  But, after I spent more time in Brazil and Colombia, I began to accept the sad truth that many / most of those that are brought up in poverty are damaged at the core.   That is why often times when a man sees a Beauty Queen, Drop Dead Gorgeous, young woman - the first impression is "little devil".   Again this is a sad generalization, but grounded in more than a little truth.   How does Eastern Europe / Russia differ?
 

On the 'diamonds in the rough', I think that the people who may be called diamonds would be to a large extent those who was brought up under the Soviet times. At that time everyone, irrespectively from their means, received a first class education and had easy and free access to learn and enjoy arts, sports, literature and the other things who build and form a well roundeed, educated person. People from the remote areas had fewer of that, though. My point would be that an average Russian in the cities was indeed of a higher cultural level than their peers in the West, let alone the South America. Isn't it what you call 'diamonds in the rough', is it?  First class education and culture to the poor, this was a definite Soviet phenomenon which is unprecedental, purely Russian, and will likely not be repeated anywhere any more.
 
Now the situation in the FSU changes rapidly. Unlike the Soviets, the market system does not give education for free. The former Soviet students can not always supply their children with the same opportunities as they had a while ago. This leads to the situation where younger generation comes closer to what we probably have in Southern America, that is, no money, no opportunities. In order words, no conditions for diamonds to pop up and to grow in the rough!