How Many RW are Psychologically Damaged?

[calmissile]

Olga, you are so right on with your posts.  Maybe you can become the forum 'shrink' 
I also thought it a little crass for BC to make the stinging remarks about Maxx2 especially since there was nothing in this thread that warranted it.

While Eduard makes a good point about the language barrier, your comment that you actually have to spend a lot of time together to really get to know their personality is very important.  I think both points are well taken and is one of the reasons the risks are so high in this adventure.  By the immigration laws, and geographic constraints, it is nearly impossible to get those answers until after you are married and living together.

Maybe we should send a MMPI test to all the ladies we are courting.     

That video you posted is something everyone should watch!  It so aptly describes so many characteristics of some FSU women that we should not discount as being 'cultural differences'!

If appropriate, please post the web site of Maxx2.  I would much rather read the stories there without all the critics chiming in. 

[Gator]

back on topic... I say that a lot, if not most of these train wrecks can be avoided if both a man and a woman can communicate without the language barrier from the very beginning. Trying to save money on this puts you at risk of not only marrying the wrong person or you been the wrong person for the woman, but also marrying some one with BPD or another psychological or psychiatric disorder. Like in everything else in life, it's pay now or pay later, but you will pay one way or another. Eliminate the language barrier and your chances for success will increase dramatically.

Words mean far less than actions in deciding if a man or woman has BPD or someother untreated psychological condition.   Actions do not require an interpreter.

BPD can  be diagnosed only by a psychiatrist and only then after the person has disclosed everything including dark secrets.  And you believe a RW will reveal all of this to a man she has just met via his interpreter?     
 
Words are very important when both people are normal and are evaluating the degree of compatibility regarding goals, values, etc. and reconciling differences.   A BPD person will lie to you without flinching, telling you what you want to hear.   .

[Eduard]

Words mean far less than actions in deciding if a man or woman has BPD or someother untreated psychological condition.   Actions do not require an interpreter.

BPD can  be diagnosed only by a psychiatrist and only then after the person has disclosed everything including dark secrets.  And you believe a RW will reveal all of this to a man she has just met via his interpreter?     
 
Words are very important when both people are normal and are evaluating the degree of compatibility regarding goals, values, etc. and reconciling differences.   A BPD person will lie to you without flinching, telling you what you want to hear.   .

Phil, I'm glad we agree that words are important to evaluate compatibility, but in the case of mental illness, as I posted before, there is no need for me to diagnose the women. Sensing that something is "off" is usually enough to know that the best course of action is to move on. Whether it's BPD, Bipolar disorder or paranoid schizophrenia isn't really important because we won't be there to find out what it was.


PS. sorry I still haven't called you, just been swamped. But I will call

[Gator]

Regarding Maxx, I believe it wrong to think he derives pleasue from seeing a marriage fail. 
 
IMO he resembles mothers of MADD, yet unlike drunk driving, few people really care about false DV claims.   Mothers who have lost a child take no pleasure upon learning of a traffic fatality.  They are there to offer sympathy, and they naturally will inquire whether alcohol was a factor.  That seems to be exactly what Maxx is doing, including some modest initiatives to inform the world.   
 

For sure we can kick Maxx for being such a basketcase and not getting back in the saddle.   However, there is no reason to suggest that he is a divorce ghoul. Frankly, I am stunned at the suggestion.  Speaking of not having any empathy.   

[OlgaH]

Maxx did help one of our friends who married a wrong person, an immigrant who took advantage of our friend,  we got to know about the person's borderline personality disorder later after their marriage and the person's first GC.

[groovlstk]

That was mean spirited.

LOL, that's a lot kinder than the PM you sent me 

Maxx, your prose positively glows when you write about scheming dyevs and the poor men who unwittingly, through no fault of their own, with no help from their government, without an ounce of sympathy from the RW's family, etc. etc., get the shaft.

You're the first to show up in every disaster thread, drop hints about the fate of other members' marriages -- I mean, c'mon, I don't dispute the value in what you do for people in awful situations. I'm simply pointing out that you enjoy it a lot more than is healthy, nor am I the first person to do so.

[calmissile]

The title of this thread got a lot of attention, but the question was never answered.  Why it is important?  The real answers might be helpful in understanding better the statistics of finding a UA wife without psychological problems.  The symptons of these disorders are pretty well described in the YouTube video that Olga posted.  The statistics might raise awareness of what to look for during the courting process.  The articles are quite good and not full of medical terminology making it difficult reading.  At least this might shed a little light on the original question of the thread as well as providing a history of why these disorders exist in such quantities.



http://pb.rcpsych.org/content/30/12/456

"A recent survey of 14 countries, conducted over a 12-month period by the World Health Organization World Mental Health Survey Consortium (2004), indicated an overall 20.4% prevalence of mental disorders in the Ukrainian population, with a 4.8% prevalence of serious mental disorders. Compared with the other countries, the Ukraine had the highest prevalence of mood disorders (9.1%) and the second highest prevalence of substance misuse disorders (6.4%). Only a small proportion (4.9%) of those with any mental disorder had received any treatment during the preceding 12 months, including 19.7% of those who had a serious mental disorder."


http://www.springerlink.com/content/vp1429570p665438/
" Results Close to one third of the population experienced at least one Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth Edition (DSM-IV) disorder in their lifetime, 17.6% experienced an episode in the past year, and 10.6% had a current disorder. There was no gender difference in the overall prevalence rates. In men, the most common diagnoses were alcohol disorders (26.5% lifetime) and mood disorders (9.7% lifetime); in women, they were mood disorders (20.8% lifetime) and anxiety disorders (7.9% lifetime). The odds ratios for most pairs of disorders were highly significant. Age of onset was primarily in the teens and early 20s. Age, education, and living in the Eastern region of Ukraine were significant risk factors across disorders, with respondents older than 50 years having the highest prevalence of mood disorder and the lowest prevalence of alcoholism and intermittent explosive disorder. Only a minority of respondents talked to a professional about their symptoms."



http://www.bunews.com.ua/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=358:staying-sane-in-ukraine-&catid=25:industry-&Itemid=34
"Regional inertia taking its toll on rural mental health
The relative emotional bouyancy of Kyiv is not reflected regionally and the truism that Kyiv is not Ukraine is immediately evident when you travel beyond the city limits to areas where unemployment and depopulation have taken their toll of emotions. Whilst in Kyiv the media and some enlightened doctors openly recognise the effect of psychological illness on the country’s health, in most of Ukraine the idea of suffering from clinical depression remains stigmatised and regarded as a shameful personal failing. I have met country doctors who have refused to diagnose depression because they say their patients would no longer trust them or are afraid that the diagnosis would be indelibly entered on their work records. General medical education in Ukraine does not recognise the importance of psychological illness and many polyclinic doctors feel a lack of confidence and basic skills in making diagnoses of emotional illness, further compounding the problem."

[OlgaH]

You're the first to show up in every disaster thread, drop hints about the fate of other members' marriages -- I mean, c'mon, I don't dispute the value in what you do for people in awful situations. I'm simply pointing out that you enjoy it a lot more than is healthy, nor am I the first person to do so.

groovlstk , I don't think that such words as "pleased" and "enjoy" are correct choice. Maxx does a right thing with his hints reminding that it is not just theories and not a single fact or an exception but the cases that people should be aware of.

[groovlstk]

groovlstk , I don't think that such words as "pleased" and "enjoy" are correct choice. Maxx does a right thing with his hints reminding that it is not just theories and not a single fact or an exception but the cases that people should be aware of.

I will respectfully disagree, Olga. I'm a writer by profession and I've been reading Maxx's posts for years. I have equal amounts of respect -- and distaste -- for what he does and how he goes about it. There's an expression about "drinking the tears of others" that escapes me at the moment...

To add something useful to this thread besides ragging on Maxx, I will say based on what I've seen and experienced over the last 10 years, there is absolutely no question that the incidence of mental illness is higher among UW and RW compared to their Western sisters. My wife was very fortunate but she saw and experienced some things during the 90s that were pretty awful, the stories she tells me sometimes raises the hair on my neck. The ironic thing is that guys who buy into the marriage agency hype are quick to write off the men of that generation as drunks and do-nothings while praising the women as pillars of strength (all while managing to stay slim and sexy!). It's not logical to believe that the same set of circumstances that reduced many men of that generation to mere shadows somehow had a miraculous affect on women, making them simultaneously sexy, submissive, family-loving, penny-pinching, and faithfully devoted. (And scratch the surface on any of those qualities, and what you'll find underneath isn't likely to have sprung from some Betty Crocker-inspired philosophy, but simple survival.)

We have quite a few Russian friends after 5 years of marriage, and pretty much every one has overcome huge odds to make it to the US and build stability. There are no stories about boring suburban upbringings.

FWIW, I'm among many of my graduating class (which also includes simoni, kuna, i/o, hi-tech, and plenty of others) who don't post much anymore, not because our marriages failed but because we're too busy enjoying the lives we've built.

[Gator]

Calmissile,

Interesting data.  Given your incidence data, the fact that few FSU people have access to professionals, and the outlet of MOB agencies, I would say the odds are not small of encountering a FSUW with an untreated psychological disorder.

What can we do?  None of us are capable of diagnosing disorders.   Further, the professionals still debate the sources of some of these disorders.  Some might say it is inherited and another claim it derives from childhood experiences which interfered with normal development.  And none of these conditions are black or white - disorders are on a continuum. 

Of course if the relationship does not pass the smell test, we should walk.  Yet it can take a long time for abnormal behavior to manifest itself.  Unless you have become true friends, no woman will reveal dark secrets.  And if she had severe childhood experiences, she may have involuntarily repressed them.

I offer some simple guidelines.  Before anyone becomes upset, I admit there are many exceptions.  Further, the guidelines do not guarantee success.   

Family and Childhood:  Does she have loving and happy mama and papa who are still together?  Does she spend time with them?  Is she close with her parents?  Does she show childhood photos and talk freely and happily about childhood memories?  How about siblings  (and cousins too because the Russian word for sister and cousin is the same)?
 
Adult Life:   Stable life?  Comments about ex-husband?   Educational and professional achievements (i. e. is she competent)? 
 
Social Life:  Active?   Plenty of friends?  Not just acquaintances but good friends and diverse?
 
Attitude:  Optimistic?  Adventurous but not risky?   Happy?  Not reticent?  Many interests? 
 
 
Reason for Dating Foreign Men:  If she says all RM are bad, that is a big red flag.  That is akin to an AM saying all AW are fat bitches.
 
These guidelines would seem to apply to AM as well?
 
 
 

[Steamer]

I believe that we're all damaged to one degree or another but isn't this endeavor meant to meet someone with a matching insanity? If I think I'm a teapot and my wife thinks that she's a cookie aren't we still having a fine tea party?

[BdHvA]

I offer some simple guidelines.  Before anyone becomes upset, I admit there are many exceptions.  Further, the guidelines do not guarantee success.   

Family and Childhood:  Does she have loving and happy mama and papa who are still together?  Does she spend time with them?  Is she close with her parents?  Does she show childhood photos and talk freely and happily about childhood memories?  How about siblings  (and cousins too because the Russian word for sister and cousin is the same)?
 
Adult Life:   Stable life?  Comments about ex-husband?   Educational and professional achievements (i. e. is she competent)? 
 
Social Life:  Active?   Plenty of friends?  Not just acquaintances but good friends and diverse?
 
Attitude:  Optimistic?  Adventurous but not risky?   Happy?  Not reticent?  Many interests? 
 
 
Reason for Dating Foreign Men:  If she says all RM are bad, that is a big red flag.  That is akin to an AM saying all AW are fat bitches.
 
These guidelines would seem to apply to AM as well?

+1

[newjason]

It seems I am the Poster Child  for dating crazy girls. LOL

Nice!  It has always been my dream. 

Perhaps the  Hi. I  am Jason  thread should become a sticky?

[OlgaH]

I will respectfully disagree, Olga. I'm a writer by profession and I've been reading Maxx's posts for years. I have equal amounts of respect -- and distaste -- for what he does and how he goes about it. There's an expression about "drinking the tears of others" that escapes me at the moment...

So, let us respectfully agree to disagree. While you are a writer by profession, I'm a producer by profession (among my other degrees) where literature, dramaturgy theory and psychology were among the main subjects, and your "drinking the tears of others", "pleased to see the failed marriages" no way is applicable to Maxx. Every time when Maxx and I chat about different topics on the phone I don't notice how a hour or two hours fly by.

[ghost of moon goddess]

...
Perhaps the  Hi. I  am Jason  thread should become a sticky?

Congratulations!

Newjason, it has already become a sticky story - you could capture the readers and held their attention to the end. Although the story of Jason and Yana seems to be over, I believe it will be played around with "what if" scenarios many times, so your characters will live on and will be remembered and referred to by RWD members for years to come
P.S.
It may sound strange, but I feel sorry for Yana. She seems to have lost one of the most precious things in life – the gift of loving someone and being loved back -  deeply, truly and passionately...

My very best wishes to you. Newjason!

[ECOCKS]

I guess it's possible to feel some bit of compassion for Hitler, Nero, Ted Bundy and that Ukrainian serial killer for the things in their lives which turned them into the monsters they became but in the end each person is responsible for what they do.

Maybe if you're raised in a world of desperation and want, tormented by Hollywood's depiction of how the rest of the world lives and the elite who drive around in their black SUVs with drivers and shopping bags, then you develop this fanatical view that you're damn well going to get the things you have been denied in whatever way possible.

I notice that all but one of the Russian wives I have met face-to-face in the US seem a bit concerned (surprised, disconcerted, whatever) that they look around and see women working 40 hours a week, driving around without the fur coats, no drivers for the SUVs, husbands working 45-50 hours a week, household staff a rarity and that only crazy people carry little dogs around in their purses.

Some cope with it, others just seem to go crazy that there is no pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Greener pastures to be sure, but they have to stretch to get the fruit hanging from the trees and that is too much for some.

Reality can be disturbing.

 

[XMan]

Reality can be disturbing.

Especially reality TV.
 

[BC]

I just can not understand why some people feel such a strong itch to make their stinging remarks towards him when he speaks of his experience especially in such threads regarding "dark sides".

Olga,

First, there is a distinct difference between addressing the effect vs cause.

Maxx has always thrived on the former IMHO.  Yes he does provide folks in trouble with relief, even with excellence but does little to address and even ignores the latter.

Reactive vs proactive.  Sorta like a dentist supporting those that do not feel the need to brush their teeth.

Second,  'stinging remarks' do not necessarily connotate negativity.  It's much more a BTDT kind of thing thus my 'history' remark.  I don't specifically recall your input back then but please do feel free to point out any input you may have provided a the time.

Lastly, Maxx's failure to address or defend his POV's is repetitive.  His typical answer is:

I'm out of here. I will not be answering any PMs.

Not the first time, nor the second... and doubt even third...

I can only speak for myself, but those like myself and maybe groovlstk who have followed Maxx's story(ies) and personae over many years see a different picture than you do. 

Facit my response to you:

Quite ok.

You can take it from there..

[newjason]

Congratulations!

Newjason, it has already become a sticky story - you could capture the readers and held their attention to the end. Although the story of Jason and Yana seems to be over, I believe it will be played around with "what if" scenarios many times, so your characters will live on and will be remembered and referred to by RWD members for years to come
P.S.
It may sound strange, but I feel sorry for Yana. She seems to have lost one of the most precious things in life – the gift of loving someone and being loved back -  deeply, truly and passionately...

My very best wishes to you. Newjason!

Thank you.
To you as well Ghost.

[OlgaH]

I can only speak for myself, but those like myself and maybe groovlstk who have followed Maxx's story(ies) and personae over many years see a different picture than you do. 

BC, you, groovlstk, I and other members as well we all have our subjective opinion.  I know Maxx from different side through our personal conversations with him I enjoy. Just tell me a reason that pushed groovlstk and you to make your remarks towards Maxx in this particular thread "How Many RW are Psychologically Damaged?" where he was just a participant as other members including me, but he had a first hand experience, and he even was not an initiator of Scott's failed marriage discussion. But the very first post by groovlstk in this thread was his very personal remark towards Maxx. I would understand if it would be a thread about happy successful marriages, couples, women and so on and Maxx would jump with his experience crossing the line. But this is not such thread and he did not.

So why did groovlstk and you feel such need to throw your personal remarks towards Maxx when he involved himself in the discussion about psychologically damaged women? Was it really necessary to do it in this thread or you and groovlstk just took the opportunity? Do you both feel better now?

[onus]

So some here haven't had the experience of dating someone with Border Line Personality Disorder. It is not fun at all. I can go on for days about it. I pretty much was in that for 2 and a half years. She ended up finding another guy who i'm guessing listens to every unreasonable demand. I myself stand up for myself, i guess that is unliked. She did smooth out at the end to somewhat bearable level. Now i know many other girls here like that and i avoid them like the plague. It's so easy to spot now that you've lived it. Never will i ever ever live that life again.

[ECOCKS]

Especially reality TV.
 

Yeah! don't you just hate "Staged Reality"!?! It's like dating and FS.....uh....it's like reading Jason's, Scott's, ________'s (fill in the blank) stories.

I'll be damned!

[groovlstk]

So why did groovlstk and you feel such need to throw your personal remarks towards Maxx when he involved himself in the discussion about psychologically damaged women? Was it really necessary to do it in this thread or you and groovlstk just took the opportunity? Do you both feel better now?

It's amazing how some of you folks can't let a topic die a proper death.

Olga, was it necessary for Maxx and some other regulars, who should know better, to trash scottincrimea's wife in this very same thread? She never posted on this forum nor was she a pole dancer, as far as I can recall, but when someone pointed out this simple fact, the only response was maxx's bitter joke about not being able to keep his trainwrecks straight.

I seem to recall Scott trying to reconcile with his wife before he disappeared. I have no illusions about his chances, but I'm not so goulish to talk about him as if he's in the grave.

If Maxx or some of the other posters know how things ended, wouldn't it be wiser to keep that to themselves, since Scott obviously didn't feel a need to share this info publicly? And further, was it necessary to drop gossipy hints about other failed marriages on this forum?

You may not notice it, but I do: a distinct pleasure.

Also, as BC pointed out, you don't have to worry about Maxx disappearing. The next time there is blood on the moon, maxx will resurface, he's drawn to it like a moth to flame. Maybe he'll speculate publicly that the poster's wife was unfaithful, like he did when GregfromGa made a desperate-sounding post about his failing marriage and most people with an ounce of compassion were urging Gregg to take a step back. I'm a little surprised that BC is the only other person who notices maxx's eagerness to welcome men to the false-DV fold.

[OlgaH]

Groovlstk, maybe it would be better if you addressed your very first post to all members in this thread who were trashing Scott's wife 

As you mentioned GregfromGa here are some of his posts

For the record, I've always thought Maxx was one of the good guys. I've known of his story for years and I always felt bad for the guy. I've spoken to him on the phone on more than one occasion and he's always been helpful to those who were going through the same ordeal. This board is lucky to have him here posting.

Maxx just strikes me as the kind of guy that would be quick to help out a women in distress just as quick as he would some guy.

[Ade]

It's amazing how some of you folks can't let a topic die a proper death.

Olga, was it necessary for Maxx and some other regulars, who should know better, to trash scottincrimea's wife in this very same thread? She never posted on this forum nor was she a pole dancer, as far as I can recall, but when someone pointed out this simple fact, the only response was maxx's bitter joke about not being able to keep his trainwrecks straight.

I seem to recall Scott trying to reconcile with his wife before he disappeared. I have no illusions about his chances, but I'm not so goulish to talk about him as if he's in the grave.

If Maxx or some of the other posters know how things ended, wouldn't it be wiser to keep that to themselves, since Scott obviously didn't feel a need to share this info publicly? And further, was it necessary to drop gossipy hints about other failed marriages on this forum?

You may not notice it, but I do: a distinct pleasure.

Also, as BC pointed out, you don't have to worry about Maxx disappearing. The next time there is blood on the moon, maxx will resurface, he's drawn to it like a moth to flame. Maybe he'll speculate publicly that the poster's wife was unfaithful, like he did when GregfromGa made a desperate-sounding post about his failing marriage and most people with an ounce of compassion were urging Gregg to take a step back. I'm a little surprised that BC is the only other person who notices maxx's eagerness to welcome men to the false-DV fold.

Glee at someone else's misfortune is never a good thing, however, frank disclosure of the premature failure of cross cultural marriages may be a well needed slap of reality to those that have glamorous fantasies about MOB marriages.