Need advice on my situation

[Vaughn]

Василисочка, thank you for those links. They contain a treasure trove of new vocabulary for me.
 
There is another no-no of which I'm aware, because I've been guilty of doing it, or at least I gave that impression  -  and that is counting one's money, especially after having just settled a bill, as at a cafe or restaurant. My wife's friends noticed me doing that and perceived me as being miserly, cheap. In fact I am not - but lesson learned.

[Daveman]

For this type of the girls you'd better go to Western Europe, USA, Scandinavia.
Because Russia is the country where there the local girls start threads about Russian guys like:
"How to teach the guy to spend money on his girls friend"(he buys me the presents but doesn't give money)
http://www.woman.ru/relations/men/thread/4231007/

"Do you ask your boy friends to give you money?"
http://www.woman.ru/relations/men/thread/4230810/

"I left the guy who presented me a cheap gift"
http://www.woman.ru/relations/men/thread/4230822/

"I asked my boy friend to give me money to buy the dress I liked... and he didn't give it"
http://www.woman.ru/relations/men/thread/4230952/

"Is he greedy or is this normal?"
http://www.woman.ru/relations/men/thread/4229680/

"Is it normal to pay 50/50 with the boy friend?"
http://www.woman.ru/relations/men/thread/3978101/

"my boy friend wants to pay an apartnment rent 50/50" is that normal?!
http://www.woman.ru/relations/men/thread/4230104/
"my lover doesn't make presents to me"

http://www.woman.ru/relations/men/thread/4217605/

And that all is about the RUSSIAN men who actually PAY, but don't pay as much as they are supposed to pay according to the RW, and the FOREIGN men are supposed to pay more as they are expected to be  richer than the Russian ones, so keep looking CDW, keep teaching them!!!

Thanks for the links, Vasilisa. There does seem to be a common theme there.. 


Now just for kicks and curiosity, are there any threads there concerning what a woman should give or bring into the relationship? Or are they all about what she should strive to get?

[Vasilisa]

Thanks for the links, Vasilisa. There does seem to be a common theme there.. 


Now just for kicks and curiosity, are there any threads there concerning what a woman should give or bring into the relationship? Or are they all about what she should strive to get?

Of course. But it's mainly non-material things about raising the kids, taking care of the house, cooking, sex, looking great. Women are expected to bring more.

[Daveman]

Of course. But it's mainly non-material things about raising the kids, taking care of the house, cooking, sex, looking great. Women are expected to bring more.

Excellent. That's pretty normal from what I've seen in reality there as well.  I agree, normal FSUW bring a LOT into a relationship/marriage.  The roles are just more separated. Men are more responsible for material and women for family/maternal/emotional/cozy etc.   It's something that is discussed here often but keeps coming up again and again. 


Too many westerners are hung up on the money aspect (not accusing the OP here) without realizing (or forgetting, or refusing to believe/accept) that there is a difference in expectations resulting from a difference in role definitions. 

[JayH]

Excellent. That's pretty normal from what I've seen in reality there as well.  I agree, normal FSUW bring a LOT into a relationship/marriage.  The roles are just more separated. Men are more responsible for material and women for family/maternal/emotional/cozy etc.   It's something that is discussed here often but keeps coming up again and again. 


Too many westerners are hung up on the money aspect (not accusing the OP here) without realizing (or forgetting, or refusing to believe/accept) that there is a difference in expectations resulting from a difference in role definitions.

 I dont think expectations are any different to normal western arrangements--
MAN   EARNS MONEY--- WOMAN SPENDS THE MONEY !!!!
Only half joking!!  realistically is basically how it does work-- so what is different?

[JayH]

Thanks for the links, Vasilisa. There does seem to be a common theme there.. 

Also thanks--it is interesting reading. I am using Google Translate-- anyone think there is better  to use-- I would say Google T is giving me the jist of posts-- not necessarily accurate .

Going Dutch( sharing payments) may be ok at Uni student age(both parties!!)  but I think any western guy that goes to FSU and is on western income-- and chooses not to pay for EVERYTHING--is being mean.,tight,greedy.
Sure there are situations where there is potential to be misled( often referred to as scamming) -- but the solution is to be somewhere else-- and not treat every situation like that.
In my culture-- accepting the responsibility for the bill and to "shout"(pay) is considered normal hospitatilty.If you do the inviting-- do the paying.

[Klangfilm]

To all who replied my thanks for you're input.

It shure gave me a lot of things to think about.

Call me crazy maybe, but i'm flying back today to Kiev to see her again, she's very sorry and sad about all this and so am i.
It's not only me or here to blame for this, but the both of us.
For the record she's 38 and 5 years younger as me.

[Shadow]

To all who replied my thanks for you're input.

It shure gave me a lot of things to think about.

Call me crazy maybe, but i'm flying back today to Kiev to see her again, she's very sorry and sad about all this and so am i.
It's not only me or here to blame for this, but the both of us.
For the record she's 38 and 5 years younger as me.

MAke sure you exchange some Hrivna's at the airport to pay for dinner..

[Vaughn]

Good luck to both of you, Klangfilm. Here's hoping you both can dispense with all the petty stuff and enjoy one another's presence throughout your visit. Let her see you put some of the excellent advice here into practice.
 
Safe journey.

[CDW]

1)  "I left the guy who presented me a cheap gift"

2)  "I asked my boy friend to give me money to buy the dress I liked... and he didn't give it"

3)  "my lover doesn't make presents to me"

1)   It shows that this girl is a materialistic (or maybe a gold digger) Cheap gift or not, it is the thought that count.  It also shows that it is the real reason why she was looking for a foreign man.

2)  It depends on how much she was asking him.  $100, $200?  And, why does she want the dress for?

3)  Well, did she give him the presents too?  A small souvenir, perhaps. 

After all, women complain complain complain!!  Women need to remember that men have to pay for the air fares, accomodation, food, entertainments money to meet them, but women complain about cheap gifts, no new nails, so on....

These sort of women - I stay away from.  Materialistic girls are bad news!!  What's next?  A $5,000 Louis Viutton handbag ??

[Vasilisa]

1)   It shows that this girl is a materialistic (or maybe a gold digger) Cheap gift or not, it is the thought that count.  It also shows that it is the real reason why she was looking for a foreign man.

2)  It depends on how much she was asking him.  $100, $200?  And, why does she want the dress for?

3)  Well, did she give him the presents too?  A small souvenir, perhaps. 

After all, women complain complain complain!!  Women need to remember that men have to pay for the air fares, accomodation, food, entertainments money to meet them, but women complain about cheap gifts, no new nails, so on....

These sort of women - I stay away from.  Materialistic girls are bad news!!  What's next?  A $5,000 Louis Viutton handbag ??

Well, those were the threads of different RW and I'd say the majority of other RW there sided with them, so the conclusion is not to date RW.

It is not seen as "cheap" by many people here, the cost of the present I mean, it's a different type of mentality, more asian/middle eastern one, Russia has never been fully European/Protestant, it has always been that way, even before the Revolution of 1917, when a rich guy is expected to spend more and to buy more expensive presents, buy expensive clothes, etc. If you are well-off it's not normal to present a post-card with a cheap souvenir for BD or a wedding to close friends or relatives. People will not understand.  And you can't change the mentality, that is a part of the society where the people are raised. If the girl has traveled a lot and lived abroad and knows the details of life in and attitutude towards the money in the West she would probably understand why you didn't get her something expensive, but a regular RW would see you as a greedy person. Some young RM get into debts to impress a girl-friend giving her something really nice for her Birthday and here comes the "rich western guy" with his bottle of cheap perfume...
What I am doing is I am trying to explain you the rules of the society and you are trying to persuade me that you are not greedy, you don't have to, I understand many rules here.
I read that forum from time to time. Sometimes the girls are trying to discuss the Western rules there, to explain them, but most RW see it this way: if you don't spend a lot of money on me it means you are spending them on other girls.
 And yes, you will look cheap if you will explain Western mentality  to many young RW there.

[Daveman]

I dont think expectations are any different to normal western arrangements--
MAN   EARNS MONEY--- WOMAN SPENDS THE MONEY !!!!
Only half joking!!  realistically is basically how it does work-- so what is different?

Vasilisa does a good job explaining it here...

Well, those were the threads of different RW and I'd say the majority of other RW there sided with them, so the conclusion is not to date RW.

It is not seen as "cheap" by many people here, the cost of the present I mean, it's a different type of mentality, more asian/middle eastern one, Russia has never been fully European/Protestant, it has always been that way, even before the Revolution of 1917, when a rich guy is expected to spend more and to buy more expensive presents, buy expensive clothes, etc. If you are well-off it's not normal to present a post-card with a cheap souvenir for BD or a wedding to close friends or relatives. People will not understand.  And you can't change the mentality, that is a part of the society where the people are raised. If the girl has traveled a lot and lived abroad and knows the details of life in and attitutude towards the money in the West she would probably understand why you didn't get her something expensive, but a regular RW would see you as a greedy person. Some young RM get into debts to impress a girl-friend giving her something really nice for her Birthday and here comes the "rich western guy" with his bottle of cheap perfume...
What I am doing is I am trying to explain you the rules of the society and you are trying to persuade me that you are not greedy, you don't have to, I understand many rules here.
I read that forum from time to time. Sometimes the girls are trying to discuss the Western rules there, to explain them, but most RW see it this way: if you don't spend a lot of money on me it means you are spending them on other girls.
 And yes, you will look cheap if you will explain Western mentality  to many young RW there.

We relate to this mentality as being between men/women because of the nature of what we did/do - meet and date.  But it transcends gender -- If, for example, you have money and don't help the family there is something wrong with you (even if they are 'ok'). 


It's a natural progressive dating/family tax system - the more money they perceive that you have, the more is expected from you... and there are no shelters or deductions.   

[BillyB]

OK, time for an update and a new question.

I've been in contact with a lady from Zaporozhye now for 6 months.
Visited her twice, one time in Zaporozhye and this week in Kiev.

On Skype everything is fine, we talk almost 1 hour every day.
But our 'live' meetings are something else.
Today was the second time that I cut short my visit and came home because of the same discussion.
Money ....

What is the problem ? Because I let her pay 2 times in a restaurant(payed her back promptly the same or following day) she was not happy and says I not care for her since I let her pay in the first place.
On Wednesday we had the second time this 'problem' and yesterday she let me alone for 4 hours in our rented apartment in Kiev.
When she came back she said it was best we ended everything so I bought a ticket on the flight back home this morning, had to pay full price because my original ticket was non - refundable and could not be changed.
She go stay with her niece and would come at 06:00 am with a taxi to let me go on to Boryspol airport.
To my surprise this morning she arrived at 05:15 am, made me breakfast and said she still loved me.
Came with me to the airport to send me off and stayed with me for 90 minutes before I had to go.

Now, I'm home and confussed ... am I the reason off all this (cfr. let her pay and pay her back) or is she playing some kind of game with me ?
My feelings for her are very strong but this is not a healthy situation I think or am I'm wrong ?
Have now agreed to take some cool off time and talk to hear at the end of the week on Skype.

I wrote a thread of my many dating experiences and you could've picked up on some tips because you and women tend to create drama. I once dated a RW living here in America and on the first date she said she'd pay for half the meal. I thanked her but told her I believe if a man asks a woman out, he should pay. After the date she told me one RM did accept her invitation for her to pay half and she never went out with the guy again. YOU let a woman pay for the full meal. Maybe you had money in your pocket or short of money because you came unprepared? You are supposed to be the MAN. You are supposed to make life go smooth because you're supposed to have more life experience than the lady you're dating. You're 43 yo and not supposed to make the mistakes of an 18 yo.
 
Some people criticized your woman for her actions but I don't think it's fair because you caused the problem with bad dating etiquette. If you create a bad situation, you're going to get bad results. If you keep this up, you will continue to have problems and drama with women all your life.
 
Your lady doesn't want to dump you. She sucked up her pride and maybe there are things about you that she likes so she's going to stick with you but truth is she doesn't consider you 100% MAN. You have work to do. If a woman considers a life with you, spending money on her is not your money you're spending, it's the family's money and if you can't take care of your family with this money, you're considered selfish or not marriage material.
 
Your problem is that you aren't prepared to date women. Other men's problem is that they over do it trying to show how much they can care about a woman and end up getting used by gold diggers. Be smart but don't give the appearance you're greedy. Don't get used but don't let your dating experience with good women go bad. You are the MAN and you're supposed to be in control of the situation.

[GQBlues]

First off...

...Call me crazy maybe, but i'm flying back today to Kiev to see her again, she's very sorry and sad about all this and so am i. It's not only me or here to blame for this, but the both of us. For the record she's 38 and 5 years younger as me.

I sincerely wish you good luck in your chosen relation.

Of course. But it's mainly non-material things about raising the kids, taking care of the house, cooking, sex, looking great. Women are expected to bring more.

That's really no different than what AWs are. At least largely what they used to be. Apparently the vast majority of them mindlessly submitted themselves to such *traditional* roles until these women got sick and tired of AMs bitchin' about how useless they are, how they only want *his* money, only married him for *his* money, etc...and when a divorce happen, how wicked these women are because they mostly went after *his* money he earned while *he* worked and *she* "stayed home" their entire married life. Because now she realized she's uneducated, no career, no work experience plus a handful of kids and the prospect no viable man could ever want an aged woman with that much baggage in her back pocket (sound familiar?)

I personally wouldn't know this era of course as these were all before my time, but the majority of our membership have apparently lived through these times. LOL.

It took decades but AWs got smart and yes, making something of themselves and establishing a career BEFORE remotely contemplating marriage to these Archie Bunkers does make a whole lot of sense. Then these women (AWs) reached places they never knew before. They realized not only are ceilings available for them to reach, they can break thorough them and reach newer heights. Then they got even smarter and realized AMs come in very distinct variety and being where AWs are today, they are in a much better place to be chosey. No longer are they part of the society that were branded *useless*, good-for-nothing-money-hungry Mrs. Bradys.

Now they just became the *Obese - Wicked Witches of the West *. 

Knowing that, many of these Archie Bunkers men flock to places like the FSU for their wives so they can attempt to re-live the good ol' days. If it pans out the gals aren't conforming to their grand design, they advice each other to drop her at the airport Ay-Sap!, LOL.

In FSU, *bling-bling* still rules and the FSU landscape still house an entire population of these women. But that will change. It changed in CE, Baltics, Japan, China, SK and in many moderate Muslim countries. It will change in R/U. This is another example why I believe W-are-W. It's just a question of where they are in their respective cultural/societal's progressive clock.

[CDW]

Vasilisa

Money should be well spend.   For example, if a girl wants a $5,000 Louis Viutton handbag, and a non-wealthy man worked very hard to buy it for her, and how long will she be happy with that handbag?

My ex-girlfriend from Colombia whom I was engaged to was a very materialistic woman.  I bought her some expensive gifts that she asked for, but she was only happy for 5 minutes!  After that, it was well forgotten!

Materialistic women are very sad, because they want more and more.... never satisfied!  Simply they do not know how to make themselves feel happy.  They only love themselves!!

[ML]

. . . I believe W-are-W. It's just a question of where they are in their respective cultural/societal's progressive clock.

Excellent post GQ.  I agree with most of it.

The RW who are clinging to the past model will be changing over time.
Whether this will be good or bad for the total relationship with RM or WM is yet to be determined.

Many, many of the FSUW I have dated and had relationships with are nothing like the type that Vasilisa has described here regarding money and the seeking of gifts, etc.  So their clock has moved quite a bit from the past model.

[ML]

And back to the OP . . .

Please tell us what the real situation was regarding your gal paying twice and you reimbursing her.  This has never been cleared up.

1) You  simply didn't have the local currency and both you and she knew this to be the case and that you would reimburse her as soon as possible.

2) You and she fully intended that she would pay without reimbursement; and later you decided to reimburse her.

3) Something else . . . .

[Daveman]

... It will change in R/U. This is another example why I believe W-are-W. It's just a question of where they are in their respective cultural/societal's progressive clock.

Agreed. It will change -- when the environment changes.  W-are-W but mentality is a product of environment, so W-are-W (similar) within their respective environmental bubbles yet also diverge from other bubbles.  Change the environment, change the opportunities, change the level of equality and of course the mentality will progressively change over time as well.


Also, we need to keep in mind, Russians are the only humans who have "soul"... 

[Daveman]

...

Many, many of the FSUW I have dated and had relationships with are nothing like the type that Vasilisa have described here regarding money and the seeking of gifts, etc. 

Perhaps they were/are just more subtle when you're watching..  what women speak about among themselves can be considerably different.   


Remember that old adage ... Men shoot; women poison.   

[ML]

Perhaps they were/are just more subtle when you're watching..  what women speak about among themselves can be considerably different.

Could be; but . . . they kept coming back for more (of me) without complaint, scowling, bad mood, lack of smiles and passion, etc.

Under that scenario, if they later blow off steam with other women (just as men do with other men,) no harm - no foul.

I remind again . . . we are the ones in short supply.  Be the best man possible for the woman . . . but don't take sheeeeet or be PWed.

Football now calls.  My Gal already has the game turned on and telling me to get the fock beside her.  Well, now I am (temporarily) PWed, so must run to her.   

[Vaughn]

Perhaps they were/are just more subtle when you're watching..  what women speak about among themselves can be considerably different.    

I can offer confirmation of that presumption. Sometimes when I'm home (or at a gathering elsewhere) my wife will be amongst her girlfriends, numbering anywhere from three to six or so....  either they forget I can understand, or just grow oblivious to my nearby presence, but they will at times converse about generosity, practicality, and yes, miserliness. That generosity is highly valued is very evident, and conversely, stinginess looked down upon. Yet none of these women IMHO are "materialistic" or "gold diggers" - they simply are comparing notes. I imagine forum threads by FSU women tend to be much in the same vein.
 
Yeah, material girls do exist, but for the bulk of FSU gals, discussions as above seem to be normal behavior, as Daveman noted, among themselves. Even with me lurking nearby.      

[LAman]

Agreed. It will change -- when the environment changes.  W-are-W but mentality is a product of environment, so W-are-W (similar) within their respective environmental bubbles yet also diverge from other bubbles.  Change the environment, change the opportunities, change the level of equality and of course the mentality will progressively change over time as well.


Also, we need to keep in mind, Russians are the only humans who have "soul"... 

Yes, an environment can change one...but it is what is really inside of one that can come out in this new environment....what I call 'the real person'. You cannot tell how anyone can react in another environment.
I have seen girls in a not well off situation, come to USA and some may continue a frugal type of living situation while others become spenders...it is what is inside that comes out!!!
 

[mendeleyev]

Wishing you the best, Klingman.

[Gator]

When asked why they seek a woman from the FSU, many men will speak highly of RW's traditional values.
 
Klingman's woman behaved liked a traditional FSUW.  So why would some men find fault in her behavior?   I guess they are dating FSUW for something other than values.
 
 

[Vasilisa]

Perhaps they were/are just more subtle when you're watching..  what women speak about among themselves can be considerably different.   


Remember that old adage ... Men shoot; women poison.   

I completely agree, a polite mature woman would not show her dissapointment but will remember that later. That happened to me before with foreign men and I smiled and looked happy, but was extremely dissapointed and didn't have any respect for those guys.
There is also a chance that they were GCG and later they would remind him of all those things after moving to his country.

Also there is another Russians thing: "наше дело-предложить, ваше-отказаться", which means that it is considered to be politely to offer to do something but the opponent is expected to refuse

My Russian friend dated a Russian student, she was older and worked as an accountant and he didn't work anywhere, so she paid for him somewhere and later when we were sitting and talking she said that she needed to find the man and all those "poor boys" were not for her.

Here is another proof of my words:
The story from the same forum. It started by the russian man named Sergey.
The story is:
A russian girl invited a guy to a restaurant, she was inviting but he saw that the bill was big and offered to share it, but the girl said that it was ok and she would pay as she was inviting, so she paid. 
Once upon a time, there was an argument between the 2 and the girl brought up that episode!
http://www.woman.ru/relations/medley4/thread/3835976/

You may want to read the comments. I have counted a couple, including another man where the Sergey was supported but the rest of the girls told him he was an idiot and that he should have paid the full bill instead of offering to share it or letting her pay it.

By the way, the comment number 12 may look especially interesting:
"  касабланка  |  04.06.2008, 00:27:39 [278667260]  я бы обидилась за то что полностью не предложил оплатить и больше бы не встречалась. даже если бы я настояла сама платить потом и оплатили. не мужской поступок. скоро все америкосами станете ..а не мужиками. пускай фрося бежить от вас"
"I would be offended that he didn't offer to pay the full bill and wouldn't like to see him anymore, Even if I insisted on paying the bill myself. That's not the man's behavior. You all are going to turn into  Americans pretty soon instead of being men. Let Frosya run away from you".