Unrealistic Expectations - Women - Entitlement Mentality

[Boethius]

I am certain you will find a woman from Ukraine, unlike any Canadian woman, to be meek and compliant.

[Gator]

Besides, I am not talking about the men's expectations, I am talking about their attempts to persuade young women that they are old, losers, nobody wants them, etc, at the same time these men know that the same quality of women in the US would not even look at them......They can't do anything to achieve something significant, so they bring a young woman from a poorer country and persuade her that she is so bad that nobody except for him would have married her, so she should be very thankful to him as he was her last chance or something.

If this is a true story, it is not a common one.  To win the heart of a woman, any man should know to make the woman feel that she is perfect when with him.  That is done with positive reinforcement, genuine compliments, attention....etc.  It is not done by putting her done.   Even if she reluctantly married him, she will not stay if constantly belittled. 
 

Respectful men who are sure in themselves and wants truly equal relationships
will never do that, only losers will.

Agree.  However, who are such men? They sound like miserable curmudgeons.   Bad men!   I don't know any man this way.   I can not imagine that with such weak people skills that they have been successful enough in their chosen career to afford the expense of a FSUW wife..   

I am not trying to pry Vasilisa; however, if this were your personal history  I understand why you divorced him and I understand your current attitude.  If true (and please don't respond to me), I strongly suggest that you forget this bad experience and just enjoy dating without looking for a husband.  It reminds me of men who go to the FSU paranoid about scams.  Such men look for red flags everywhere and never relax and enjoy the pleasure of spending time with a woman.   Guess what?  This makes the women think that he is an oddball.

Also if you read the conversation between the OP and the woman you can see that it was him who started saying how "very, very expensive" it is to go to college in the US as soon as she mentioned that her daughers go to college.  To me it sounded like :"hey, don't even think of bringing them here!!!"

This is called "converse in reverse."  A man and woman skip the typical startup chatter of courtship and jump into frank discussion of how they want to live your lives, i. e. their expectations.  Rather than conversing with Calmissile for months, she discovered immediately that they are incompatible.  Neither Cal not the woman is unreasonable;  they simply are wrong for each other.   Good to discover that early. 

 

[Gator]

 Ahh, you caught that did you? Just my little way of saying she's been here a long time... and maybe picked up a few bad habits!!!   

Whoooooosh!    Did you hear the whooooooosh?   That is the sound made by a clue that went right over your head.

[Gator]

Vasilisa,

I have to agree.  I think you have a sick mind.  I hope you  are not the postergirl of most Ukraine women.  If so, a lot of WM could save a lot of money by staying home!....Why don't you go back home and enjoy the men and culture of your own country?

Calmissile!    FSUW  everywhere can make you lose your self-control as you just demonstrated. 
 
This endeavor is at times the clash of the titans cultures.  Patience, my man, patience.  Listen to their opinions and respect them.  It does not mean that you must agree with them.  And forget that crazy thought that you can get them to agree with you.  Impossible, even when you are right.  However, many times you will be wrong.  But most of the time the two of you simply will be different. 

 

[onlyFSU4me]

I am certain you will find a woman from Ukraine, unlike any Canadian woman, to be meek and compliant.

 Lol, meek and compliant? Hardly! But I haven't seen too many that are so stubborn that they would never admit they are wrong, or would lower themselves to insult someone just to try to show their superiority. That is one trait I really admire and respect about them. But I have seen a lot of that from a lot of Canadian women over the years!

[Boethius]

A California resident, who actually paid tuition, posted that my numbers were not inaccurate, and I'm the stubborn one? 

Telling you your numbers were inaccurate is hardly an insult.

[Gylden]

LaMan,

The costs of college is really not relevant to the original post.  Had the chat evolved into a relationship, then of course the details of education costs would be important.  At this point in the correspondence, I was more interested in how the lady would propose having a marriage develop out of the existing circumstances.... two non-English speaking teenagers in the middle of their college education, not graduating for two years, and she is ready for marrige now!  It was nothing more than exploring how she deemed this could work.

When she changed he mind about working after telling me how tired of working she is and wants a man to support both her and her kids, that's when my curiosity ended since that alone was not acceptable to me.

She is a very nice lady and I believe that Mies assured us that she can find the man of her dreams.  I hope so.

I hope you all realise that her kids are most likely not in college, but in high school, which makes it more understandable why she would like to bring her kids as soon as possible. IMO just an example of a missunderstanding due to language/culture differences.

[calmissile]

Gylden,

You could be and probably are, correct.  It is amazing how a single word can create mistunderstandings on both sides.  It would not have changed her mind about working, but it certainly would have clarified the education issue.

[newjason]

Vasilisa,

I have to agree.  I think you have a sick mind.  I hope you  are not the postergirl of most Ukraine women.  If so, a lot of WM could save a lot of money by staying home!

All of your complaints about the US and US men in particular, makes me wonder.  Why don't you go back home and enjoy the men and culture of your own country?  Perhaps we can take a collection for your ticket.  I would hate to see a damsel trapped in a foreign country she does not like and not be able to return to her homeland.

If WM were resident in your country of origin, and made all the insulting remarks you do, do you think we would be well received by the locals?

Just a thought!

calmissile
She has been rather overbearing and outspoken, especially toward you.
It's even gotten a little uncomforatble.
I think Vasilisa has been busting your balls a lot lately, and you for the most part, took it like a man.


But seriously,

 what you said above

   That was just uncalled for.     

     Not Cool.   

       ничего хорошего

[The Natural]

To win the heart of a woman, any man should know to make the woman feel that she is perfect when with him.  That is done with positive reinforcement, genuine compliments, attention....etc.  It is not done by putting her done.   Even if she reluctantly married him, she will not stay if constantly belittled. 

This is gold. 

[calmissile]

Quote from: Gator on Yesterday at 09:48:50 PM
To win the heart of a woman, any man should know to make the woman feel that she is perfect when with him.  That is done with positive reinforcement, genuine compliments, attention....etc.  It is not done by putting her done.   Even if she reluctantly married him, she will not stay if constantly belittled. 


Agree, and also true for the reversed situation!

[happyandstable]

  I know that college cost had nothing to do with the original argument. Again I just did it as an exercise to show two things. One, how much it would cost me (I do not live in California). Two, how easy it would be to post the facts and not base ones college cost figures on speculations.

   Just for the record I went to UC Berkeley and got the facts there too!

http://registrar.berkeley.edu/Registration/feesched.html

Not to rebuild the whole table I’ll just state the yearly cost.

Resident $7,320.25 Non Resident $18,669.25

Now these costs do not include room and board like UVM estimates did. Now room and board is the lion’s share of the expense. And I would wager that it cost way more to live in California then it does to live in Vermont. 

Now if expecting someone to pay these cost for children that are not his while insisting on not contributing to the effort is not a sense of “entitlement” I refer you to this:

An entitlement is a guarantee of access to benefits based on established rights or by legislation. A "right" is itself an entitlement associated with a moral or social principle, such that an "entitlement" is a provision made in accordance with legal framework of a society. Typically, entitlements are laws based on concepts of principle ("rights") which are themselves based in concepts of social equality or enfranchisement.
In a casual sense, the term "entitlement" refers to a notion or belief that one (or oneself) is deserving of some particular reward or benefit[1]—if given without deeper legal or principled cause, the term is often given with pejorative connotation (e.g. a "sense of entitlement").
Entitlement may also refer to the idea of an entitlement society, in which everyone receives the same or similar rewards, regardless of education, effort, and willingness to take risk[2].

Taken from Wikipedia
And here is that link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entitlement
It is funny but the entry right below it is this

Narcissism
In clinical psychology and psychiatry, an unrealistic, exaggerated, or rigidly held sense of entitlement may be considered a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder, seen in those who 'because of early frustrations...arrogate to themselves the right to demand lifelong reimbursement from fate.[3]

Now do I think the OP’s lady friend has a sense of Entitlement? As I stated early on I think it was simply a matter of different expectations out of what an international marriage would provide for both parties. Whether or not I think those expectations are realistic or unrealistic I did not say. I leave that up to everyone to decide for themselves.

[happyandstable]

To win the heart of a woman, any man should know to make the woman feel that she is perfect when with him.  That is done with positive reinforcement, genuine compliments, attention....etc.  It is not done by putting her done down.   Even if she reluctantly married him, she will not stay if constantly belittled. 
 

   Yes , No ? If my edit is correct then I agree if you truly meant done how does one put her done? (just kidding).

[mies]

I hope you all realise that her kids are most likely not in college, but in high school, which makes it more understandable why she would like to bring her kids as soon as possible. IMO just an example of a missunderstanding due to language/culture differences.

I agree. I am certain at the age under 16 these children cannot be already in the college/university. At best - they can be studying at vocational school. But most likely - just a high school with intensified curriculum for some subjects.

In addition, if the woman brings her children to USA now, before they are 18, it is a much faster and easier  process for kids to become US citizens than if she tries to bring them several years later. Calmissile, did you check this part of the problem? If needed, kids can do 1-2 years of high school or cheaper college in USA, while they learn English better, and become residents of the state. Then they can apply to better university.

[Muzh]

Don't you think the OP has been realistic about all the expenses. Plus he did not contact her, such big age gap was not in his plan and he actually had different expectations regarding his soulmate and life, he was honest with the woman and the woman knew it.

Ahem, don't you think that the OP should have told this woman from the very beginning that he was engaged to another woman in UA instead of playing the field? Or do you go by the assumption that boys will be boys and they are entitled to play the field?

[Muzh]

LaMan,

The costs of college is really not relevant to the original post.  Had the chat evolved into a relationship, then of course the details of education costs would be important.  At this point in the correspondence, I was more interested in how the lady would propose having a marriage develop out of the existing circumstances.... two non-English speaking teenagers in the middle of their college education, not graduating for two years, and she is ready for marrige now!  It was nothing more than exploring how she deemed this could work.

When she changed he mind about working after telling me how tired of working she is and wants a man to support both her and her kids, that's when my curiosity ended since that alone was not acceptable to me.

She is a very nice lady and I believe that Mies assured us that she can find the man of her dreams.  I hope so.

Doug, before I keep repeating something that is not true, did you break up the engagement to that other lady that appears with you on some pictures posted here?

[happyandstable]

Doug, before I keep repeating something that is not true, did you break up the engagement to that other lady that appears with you on some pictures posted here?

    Don't you think this is something you should have found out before you posted? A real gentleman would have PM Doug and asked first. It is always better to investigate before you pontificate. Why should he tell you now that you decided to besmear his name when you did not know the facts is curious to me.

[OlgaH]

I hope you all realise that her kids are most likely not in college, but in high school, which makes it more understandable why she would like to bring her kids as soon as possible. IMO just an example of a missunderstanding due to language/culture differences.

Gylden,

probably they are in college if she said in college, because children in Ukraine and in Russia can enter college after 9 years of general (basic) education or after 11 years of general (complete) education, the duration of programmes will be different.

http://www.parta.com.ua/college/

[Gylden]

Gylden,

probably they are in college if she said in college, because children in Ukraine and in Russia can enter college after 9 years of general (basic) education or after 11 years of general (complete) education, the duration of programmes will be different.

http://www.parta.com.ua/college/

Of course it could be, but if I remember right she said they would finish in two years. This is why I said most likely. Also my experience with my wifes kids, who were in the same situation when they came here.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out how easy it is to get things crossed up a bit, in response to Dougs initial post about entitlement. He said himself that she was a good woman and that things degenerated after the talk about kids/education and the consideration of them staying long enough to finish their education. It was only after that when she said she didn't really want to work. Before that Doug said she was woundering about what kind of work she might find.

[OlgaH]

Of course it could be, but if I remember right she said they would finish in two years. This is why I said most likely. Also my experience with my wifes kids, who were in the same situation when they came here.

Different colleges offer different  programmes duration. Some colleges offer 3 years duration after 9 years of basic education. So, if a girl entered college when she was 15 y.o.  two years left to finish college sounds reasonable, I think

Anyway, I just wanted to point out how easy it is to get things crossed up a bit, in response to Dougs initial post about entitlement. He said himself that she was a good woman and that things degenerated after the talk about kids/education and the consideration of them staying long enough to finish their education. It was only after that when she said she didn't really want to work. Before that Doug said she was woundering about what kind of work she might find.

Gylden, I don't know what Doug said himself when the woman who is 30 years younger than him contacted him, but as I understood from Doug's post he did not plan such a big age gap and was wondering himself what the woman wanted from him and how  their relationship would work from her perspective.

When she asked: " where i can work in america" it was not necessary her wondering about what kind of work she might find, it is also could be her trying to find an excuse why she would not be able to work  more over when her real motive was "Evgeniya 39: im want one time in my life have man who say me d work relax at home ... u all life work.  i want just man who care about me and kids". Who knows 

[mies]

Why should he tell you now that you decided to besmear his name when you did not know the facts is curious to me.

I wonder why shouldn't he.. if someone is questioning someone else's morals and values, i presume one should have impeccable own morals and values.

[happyandstable]

I wonder why shouldn't he.. if someone is questioning someone else's morals and values, i presume one should have impeccable own morals and values.

   If you do not already know why you sould ask someone if he has a fiance  before you accuse him of cheating on a fiance he may or may not have, I can not help you!

[Muzh]

    Don't you think this is something you should have found out before you posted? A real gentleman would have PM Doug and asked first. It is always better to investigate before you pontificate. Why should he tell you now that you decided to besmear his name when you did not know the facts is curious to me.

A real gentleman would not go splattering some woman's reputation on a public forum a her unable to respond.

How's that, Pope?

[happyandstable]

A real gentleman would not go splattering some woman's reputation on a public forum a her unable to respond.

How's that, Pope?

    1 I can not be Pope I am not Catholic. I do not even believe in religion.
    2. I did not splatter some women’s reputation in a public forum
    3. So it is ok to your way of thinking for a women to degrade some one else’s reputation     
        without knowing if it is true or not?
    Good to know. Guess you do not believe in personal responsibility too? So why so upset?   

[OlgaH]

A real gentleman would not go splattering some woman's reputation on a public forum a her unable to respond.

How's that, Pope?

Muzh, I don't see anyone splattering some woman's reputation but discussing a situation. Plus what woman you are talking about?     Some kind of a virtual woman?  The name of the board is "russian women discussion" if you go through topics there are group discussions about many women and men who can not respond and situations regarding them.