It has been said...

[ECOCKS]

Yes, but many guys aren't interested in either.

1- Time

Don't rush. Time has a way of flushing out the insincere.


2- Presence

Either party (and often it is the man who is insincere) can play honeymoon on a trip out of the country or she can get rid of the local lover for a week if that is all the time you have each year, etc.

What she can't fake or sweep out of sight, is you sitting in her family's living room over dinner and tea, not once or twice, but multiple times over multiple weeks. She can't sweep under the rug you sitting in the kitchen over cake while visiting her best friends.

Don't rush, make multiple trips in a year and don't go out of town until you're really planning a honeymoon. Be very afraid of a woman who wants to keep her from her friends, her family, her workplace, her neighborhood, etc. Many guys don't realize that the old Black Sea/Turkey/Greece trip idea so soon in a relationship is a great way for her to keep you from getting to know her personal life.

A sincere lady usually wants to parade you around to those important in her life.

I'll certainly agree that being invited to meet the family and participate in holiday parties, picnics and birthdays are positive indicators that you're being taken more seriously. However, it isn't a guarantee that they won't close ranks behind their own when your wallet runs dry or times take a turn for the worse.

[noelscot]

If you have any free electives, look into Russian literature.

Pages and pages become chapters and chapters of tedium until someone has a bowel movement.

THIS will help you understand the barren soil wherein sprouted the FSUW's seeds of want and desire........

It will also help you understand why your FSU students love Hollywood movies.

Oh, I've read some Russian literature in my day, believe you me. Some of it is good, but some of it is very bad. I prefer Chekhov and Dostoyevsky. There are no Russian lit classes at my university.

[mendeleyev]

I'll certainly agree that being invited to meet the family and participate in holiday parties, picnics and birthdays are positive indicators that you're being taken more seriously. However, it isn't a guarantee that they won't close ranks behind their own when your wallet runs dry or times take a turn for the worse.

As often the case, you and I agree. I was thinking of much, much more than merely being an occasional guest at a family party. My points of both time and presence are designed to let guys know that this is not a quick deal. Slow down, take multiple trips, don't be afraid to slow down the process, as time will help filter out the bad.

[newjason]

I have itchy feet, but I am not having a mid-life crisis.
I'm only 34. I have plenty of time to complete the goals I have set for myself. Currently, my goal is to complete an M.A. in ESL by 2014. It was helter skelter, but last week I took the MAT and passed it without even studying for it, turned in all the admissions paperwork, and today I met and interviewed with the program director. Aside from processing the paperwork, it looks like I will be accepted and start classes in May. This will open many doors for me in regards to traveling overseas. I will be able to be gainfully employed in FSU countries, preferably Russia (because the pay looks better), and teach English. This master's degree will afford me many opportunities to learn more about the Russian language and culture, which has always interested me since childhood. And I can teach domestically, too.


There is a proverb, "Don't tell me what a man knows, tell me where he has traveled." I really got the travel bug after going to Ukraine (despite a somewhat bad experience), and so I had to figure out what sort of trade I could do in an FSU country. Since I already had a B.A. in English, this is a logical choice that fits my natural abilities. Will I be a rich man if I do this work? No. But I will have more life experiences and opportunities to meet new people.


Anyway, I started this thread to look deeper into the whole "you'll know if a RW likes you" adage. I maintain that it is not that simple when you factor in that women are masters of dissimulation, and some bad FSUW are disingenuous with men in order to gain citizenship and a better lifestyle. So if a man is going to mainly date FSUW in the hopes of marrying them, how does he ensure that he is not being manipulated by bad FSUW with incredible acting skills? The surest way that I can think of is to remove lifestyle and citizenship upgrades (the ulterior motives of bad FSUW) from the relationship, and see if they like you for you.

ok. I was just curious.

 
I know my mid life (reorganization) happened rom 29-32. My plan? I took a year and a half off from life just to do all the things I just talked about, and dreamed about growing up.  I dropped my life, grabbed my guitar, and started having fun. I had no plan, other than to see where the next day would take me. To condense a year and a half into a few sentences -- I joined a rock band with a guy and a girl (RW) I knew from my earlier days, wrote and recorded 2 albums, got serious about my RW female band mate (again), toured Europe, South America, and the Western USA. took a breather, Fell in Love, Got serious, Bought a ring,  toured Canada, Oceania,  and the Eastern USA. developed a nasty case of Road Rash,Threw up a lot , got back home, slept for 2 weeks, proposed, cared for my RW after she became ill with cancer. Lost her 7 months  later. Fell into a sea of sorrow, wandered around looking for a reason to live. Ended up digging in the sand (don't ask) on a western Washington beach in mid-janurary with it raining sideways, freezing my ass off . at that moment I Woke up into life again, and said,   What the hell just happened? What am I doing here?
I drove myself back to seattle, started my old company back up the next day, and been doing that ever since.

I don't want to see you digging in the sand in the sideways rain in January.
that's why I asked about it.
All the RW i have known were already here.

But you have your stuff together it would seem.
have Fun
I wish you luck.

I have a feeling you will have a .. successful relationship one day, after you are established. 
Just when you least expect it.

take  it easy 

[Belvis]

does she REALLY like you...
How do you expose the ulterior motives and dissimulation?

Back to the topic. I'll share my personal experience and views from the selfish point of RM.
1. Do not look into  ulterior motives, see obvious motives. They are: 1) love, be loved and run a family; 2) higher living standards.
2. So, I have payed attention on:
     1) she is interested to know if you like her, and not your income or what car you have. Actually, my wife does not know my income and  never requested (likely, she is not typical). Any man is able to keep family well if he wants a family and love a wife.
     2) she is interested to save your money in trips or dealing with her.
     3) she is taking care about you and requesting nothing in exchange (in short run, at least).
     4) she is ready to cancel any events or plans to spend time with you.
     5) she is feeling bad if you late to contact with her.
     6) she is wanting to know about you as much as possible (except about relations with other women, it depends)
     7) she is confessing  about her experiences  with other men without cursing them.
      she must keep inquiring about your attitude for kids.
     9) she is ready to serve you a breakfast while you are in bed and iron your wrinkled shirt on request (even better without request).
3. However, first she has to consider you as a man to share her life with. And that's the different story.
4. And she is requiring only one thing: you have to love her.

[ECOCKS]

As often the case, you and I agree. I was thinking of much, much more than merely being an occasional guest at a family party. My points of both time and presence are designed to let guys know that this is not a quick deal. Slow down, take multiple trips, don't be afraid to slow down the process, as time will help filter out the bad.

Absolutely.

Certainly, it's a promising step when you're being introduced to the family in most any culture (well except maybe certain African and South American tribes which practice cannibalism). Regularly attending parties and holiday festivities are strong indications that you're being taken seriously as a potential family member.

That said, if we accept the things being stated here about the importance of status, the male role as alpha provider, the Russian Princess personality and the like it makes me wonder what will happen when/if the man suffers a reversal of fortune.

What is your (Mendy) view on understanding of the traditional western vows cited? Do you think the average FSUW can be counted on when times get really rough? I know a few married guys who have been torpedoed by the economy and even a couple who have divorced in the last couple of years (non-FSU wives involved). However, I cannot recall any gals jumping ship on a sick or dying husband nor any which just walked off during foreclosures or homelessness.

Those stories may make the scripts of TV serials and the like but honestly, I cannot recall a single example in my 56 years on earth EXCEPT the ones involving FSUW here.

[mendeleyev]

What is your (Mendy) view on understanding of the traditional western vows cited? Do you think the average FSUW can be counted on when times get really rough? I know a few married guys who have been torpedoed by the economy and even a couple who have divorced in the last couple of years (non-FSU wives involved). However, I cannot recall any gals jumping ship on a sick or dying husband nor any which just walked off during foreclosures or homelessness.

I think you're right, to my recollection as well. Yes, I think they can be counted on to stay with their man. Most women, RW/UW included, don't like it when their man is jobless and lazy. Any woman will be frustrated if a guy loses his income and his reaction is to lay on the sofa watching sports instead of getting off his arse and finding a new opportunity to support the family as soon as possible.

You of course allude to the fact that Western wedding vows are different from the FSU. In many ZAGS ceremonies there are no vows except for the officiant asking the couple if they agreed to be married. She (the officiant is almost always female) says a few words on the importance of marriage to a healthy society and then the couple signs the wedding documents in view of everyone gathered, exchange rings while declared man and wife, kiss, receive flowers from those attending, snap a few more quick photos and the ceremony is over fairly quickly.

Some contemporary vows have been composed in which the wife promises to be a good wife and the many promises not to drink vodka on holidays (no, not kidding) and they're done.

The Orthodox Church ceremony is longer and more complex but the couple rarely speaks and there are no vows. The church ceremony generally takes place after the ZAGS (or RAGS if in Ukraine) because only the civil ceremony is legal. However most women view the church ceremony as the one which is "binding" as it is a sacrament and viewed as more serious by some couples.

Guys who haven't experienced what happens in a ZAGS or RAGS wedding ceremony in the FSU should read this: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=12073.msg254556#msg254556

[Faux Pas]

Whoah, wait a minute. Meeting women is not my sole motivation. I can do that here with a lot less headaches. Traveling and seeing the world is my primary motivation.
Plus, Ed already so eloquently refuted the false dichotomy of good women/bad women: They're all stone cold hoochies. lol

Pardon me if I have misinterpreted your post. It wasn't my intention. You've made a trip and you've met an unscrupulous woman and apparently one or two good ones. Did you note those meetings as significantly different than initial meetings with AW? My point here is you never know if a women has bad intentions unless you get to know that woman. You can't do this staring at her profile pictures, through emails, endless hours on skype and separated by an ocean.

Many guys that enter this particular fray are of the belief that the formulating and nurturing a relationship can be bypassed, it cant unless you want to give it the death penalty. If you want to know what a woman's intentions are, first and foremost, get to know the woman. You do this with multiple trips and spending as much time as you can not only with her but, around her. In her environment and with her friends and family. Alas, just as you would with local women. There are no successful marriages where an "end around" the relationship was accomplished

[noelscot]

Many guys that enter this particular fray are of the belief that the formulating and nurturing a relationship can be bypassed, it cant unless you want to give it the death penalty. If you want to know what a woman's intentions are, first and foremost, get to know the woman. You do this with multiple trips and spending as much time as you can not only with her but, around her. In her environment and with her friends and family. Alas, just as you would with local women. There are no successful marriages where an "end around" the relationship was accomplished

I agree with you. We should look before we jump. We're pretty much on the same page.


Here's an interesting, although not novel, part of all my doings. Keep in mind I'm not getting an M.A. in ESL purely to chase tail in foreign countries. Once I go live with all of this in 2014, I'll be in the country for anywhere from 6-12 months, depending upon the length of contracts. The plane tickets both ways are free in most cases. My apartment will be free in most cases. Health care is free. Russian language lessons are free or 1/2 off. Utilities are at a discount. Work visa is free. Time will be on my side, too. Because I won't be looking at the calendar thinking, "Oh crap, I have to make the most of this trip, because my time is very limited." Immersion also gives one more time to acclimate to the culture and language.


So in this scenario, I'll have a fulfilling job where I can travel, and I will have plenty of time to get to know foreign women without rushing it or worrying about the next trip. That was one of the most frustrating things that happened to me on my trip to Ukraine. As soon as I met a girl with whom I felt like I could have something special, it was time to leave. Granted, a lot of that was due to my own stupidity and poor planning, but with time on my side I could have run damage control a little bit better.


So, as mendeleyev says, Time and Presence are essential. Maybe Immersion could be added, too.
 

[Faux Pas]

So in this scenario, I'll have a fulfilling job where I can travel, and I will have plenty of time to get to know foreign women without rushing it or worrying about the next trip. That was one of the most frustrating things that happened to me on my trip to Ukraine. As soon as I met a girl with whom I felt like I could have something special, it was time to leave. Granted, a lot of that was due to my own stupidity and poor planning, but with time on my side I could have run damage control a little bit better.


So, as mendeleyev says, Time and Presence are essential. Maybe Immersion could be added, too.

Hopefully, it will all work out like you want it to. There are as many negatives to that scenario as there are positives and you failed to list any of them. I am probably considerably older than you, more traveled and likely wiser as I have learned a few things. I've made many trips to Russia and enjoyed every one of them. I also recognize it as a place I wouldn't want to live for many reasons which, I won't go into here. Just be careful what you ask for, you might find it. There is usually a downside to the romantic notions. Just make sure you are aware of them.

[noelscot]

Hopefully, it will all work out like you want it to. There are as many negatives to that scenario as there are positives and you failed to list any of them. I am probably considerably older than you, more traveled and likely wiser as I have learned a few things. I've made many trips to Russia and enjoyed every one of them. I also recognize it as a place I wouldn't want to live for many reasons which, I won't go into here. Just be careful what you ask for, you might find it. There is usually a downside to the romantic notions. Just make sure you are aware of them.

There are lots of cons too, yes. I saw them with my own eyes in Ukraine and imagine Russia is not drastically different. But Russia is just one of many places I want to visit. Hands down America is my homeland, and I would never give up my citizenship or live somewhere else permanently . I agree that some folks are too idealistic about other countries.