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Author Topic: The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men  (Read 10903 times)

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Offline SANDRO43

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« on: April 02, 2012, 08:49:12 AM »
Quote from: Muzh on April 02, 2012, 07:24:30 AM
Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas me raconter votre historie?  ;)
I don't know if he's French, but in any case I'd have said ;):

Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas NOUS raconté votre histoire?
:D
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Offline Misha

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2012, 09:19:23 AM »
Quote from: SANDRO43 on April 02, 2012, 08:49:12 AM
I don't know if he's French, but in any case I'd have said ;) :

Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas NOUS raconté votre histoire?  :D


Close but the "nous" is out of place.


Pourquoi vous nous n'avez pas raconté votre histoire?


I.e. Why haven't you told us your story.


Pourquoi vous nous ne racontez pas votre histoire?


Why don't you tell us your story?
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Offline SANDRO43

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2012, 10:29:24 AM »
Quote from: Misha on April 02, 2012, 09:19:23 AM
Pourquoi vous nous n'avez pas raconté votre histoire?
Pourquoi vous nous ne racontez pas votre histoire?
Maybe my French is out of date, but I was taught that in the inverted, negative form of question (n'avez-vous) the object (nous) must be placed after the pas. Your examples use the more informal/colloquial, non-inverted form ;).
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Offline Misha

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2012, 11:49:55 AM »
Quote from: SANDRO43 on April 02, 2012, 10:29:24 AM
Maybe my French is out of date, but I was taught that in the inverted, negative form of question (n'avez-vous) the object (nous) must be placed after the pas. Your examples use the more informal/colloquial, non-inverted form ;) .


Sandro, you made a mistake, it has nothing to do with colloquialisms  :cluebat:


The only way you could put the "nous" where you put it and have it make sense is by writing:


"Pourquoi n'allez-vous pas nous raconter votre histoire?" I.e. "Why aren't you going to tell us your story?"

But, the simplest version is simply: Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas raconté votre histoire? Why didn't you tell us your story, without the nous.



« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 12:31:49 PM by Misha »
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Offline SANDRO43

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2012, 04:08:09 PM »
Quote from: Misha on April 02, 2012, 11:49:55 AM
The only way you could put the "nous" where you put it and have it make sense is by writing: "Pourquoi n'allez-vous pas nous raconter votre histoire?" I.e. "Why aren't you going to tell us your story?"
So it'd be correct using the future, and not the past? Never saw this fine distinction in a French grammar :-\.

Quote
But, the simplest version is simply: Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas raconté votre histoire? Why didn't you tell us your story, without the nous.
Contradictory, don't you think? The correct translation of that sentence would be "Why haven't you told your story?", but you felt the need to add the us, presumably because it sounded incomplete without it, as I think it does in French ;).

I'll stick to mes canons, and wait for Patagonie's final word on this issue. Zut ;D.
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Offline Misha

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2012, 06:21:00 PM »
Quote from: SANDRO43 on April 02, 2012, 04:08:09 PM
So it'd be correct using the future, and not the past? Never saw this fine distinction in a French grammar :-\ .
Contradictory, don't you think? The correct translation of that sentence would be "Why haven't you told your story?", but you felt the need to add the us, presumably because it sounded incomplete without it, as I think it does in French ;) .


You should know by now, Sandro, that you cannot translate a language word for word....
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Offline Muzh

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2012, 08:25:44 AM »
Guys, guys, guys. What do you expect from an American?

FYI, I'm talking in present tense, not past tense if that makes any difference.
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Offline SANDRO43

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2012, 08:49:46 AM »
Quote from: Muzh on April 02, 2012, 07:24:30 AM
Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas me raconter votre historie?
Quote from: Muzh on April 03, 2012, 08:25:44 AM
FYI, I'm talking in present tense, not past tense if that makes any difference.
That may well have been your intention ("Why don't you tell us..."), but it came out as "Why haven't you told us..." (present perfect in English, passé composé in French) ;D.
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Offline Misha

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2012, 09:04:04 AM »
Sandra, I am of the school of thought that you translate intended meaning not word for word. If you want the latter, then you go to Google translate  :devil:
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Offline SANDRO43

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2012, 10:35:12 AM »
Quote from: Misha on April 03, 2012, 09:04:04 AM
Sandra, I am of the school of thought that you translate intended meaning not word for word. If you want the latter, then you go to Google translate  :devil:
Is that why you address me as a female :D?
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Offline Patagonie

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #10 on: April 03, 2012, 03:08:11 PM »
The correct form is Misha form : (sorry dear Sandro(a)).
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Offline Patagonie

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #11 on: April 03, 2012, 03:25:43 PM »
Pourquoi vous nous ne racontez pas votre histoire ?

Pourquoi ne pas nous raconter votre histoire ?

Pourriez-vous nous raconter votre histoire ?

Serait-il possible de nous raconter votre histoire ?

Voudriez-vous nous raconter votre histoire ?

Et si vous nous racontiez votre histoire ? ?

Fut votre histoire si secrète qu'il vous devint impossible de nous en entretenir ??

Il nous eût été agréable d'ouïr vos exploits insensés sire.

Etc...
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Offline SANDRO43

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #12 on: April 03, 2012, 03:54:28 PM »
I  may be stubborn :-\.

Quote from: Patagonie on April 03, 2012, 03:08:11 PM
The correct form is Misha form : (sorry dear Sandro(a)).
Quote from: Misha on April 02, 2012, 11:49:55 AM
The only way you could put the "nous" where you put it and have it make sense is by writing: "Pourquoi n'allez-vous pas nous raconter votre histoire?" I.e. "Why aren't you going to tell us your story?"
As opposed to my: "Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas nous raconté votre histoire?"

The only difference I can see is in the verb, not in the position of the pronoun, as was initially objected by Misha. Maybe mine is not the preferable way of formulating that question (you are offering several alternatives, but no inverted negative), however I'm not so much interested in style as in grammar in this debate.

So my question is: was my form ungrammatical?   
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Offline Misha

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #13 on: April 03, 2012, 04:31:50 PM »
Quote from: Patagonie on April 03, 2012, 03:08:11 PM
The correct form is Misha form : (sorry dear Sandro(a)).


Merci Patagonie!
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Offline Misha

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2012, 04:34:54 PM »
Quote from: SANDRO43 on April 03, 2012, 03:54:28 PM
I  may be stubborn :-\ .
As opposed to my: "Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas nous raconté votre histoire?"

The only difference I can see is in the verb, not in the position of the pronoun, as was initially objected by Misha.


Yes, you are stubborn. No native speaker of French would put the "nous" where you placed it.
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Offline Misha

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2012, 04:36:57 PM »
Quote from: SANDRO43 on April 03, 2012, 10:35:12 AM
Is that why you address me as a female :D ?


It was a typo, but given that you denigrate my knowledge of the French language, then perhaps I will take the same freedoms to rewrite Italian grammar  >:D 
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Offline LAman

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #16 on: April 03, 2012, 05:36:45 PM »
Quote from: Misha on April 03, 2012, 04:34:54 PM

Yes, you are stubborn. No native speaker of French would put the "nous" where you placed it.
Apparently no mirrors in Misha's home..... :)
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Offline Misha

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2012, 05:44:54 PM »
Quote from: LAman on April 03, 2012, 05:36:45 PM
Apparently no mirrors in Misha's home..... :)


I haven't the foggiest why you are getting into the fray, but yes it verges on stubborn when an Italian-speaker refuses to accept what two French-speakers say is the usual usage of their language  >:D
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Offline LAman

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2012, 07:06:50 PM »
Quote from: Misha on April 03, 2012, 05:44:54 PM

I haven't the foggiest why you are getting into the fray, but yes it verges on stubborn when an Italian-speaker refuses to accept what two French-speakers say is the usual usage of their language  >:D
I am not into the 'fray' but just an observation after reading here for over the years..... you disagree?
 
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Offline Misha

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The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2012, 09:07:10 PM »
Quote from: LAman on April 03, 2012, 07:06:50 PM
I am not into the 'fray' but just an observation after reading here for over the years..... you disagree?


I do agree that I do not take kindly to being insulted.
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Offline Patagonie

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Re: The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2012, 02:19:45 AM »
To help Sandro and to help everybody to understand :
Voudriez-vous nous raconter votre histoire ?
This is the most easy form, and perfect in french language, i would translate for you.

Would you (conditionnal form but you can use the may you - polite form, Bi in russia).
= Voudriez vous

vous = you

nous raconter = tell us

votre histoire = your story.

Pourquoi n'avez-vous pas nous raconté votre histoire?
Pourquoi vous ne nous avez pas raconté votre histoire ? = correct form.
Better : pourquoi ne pas nous raconter votre histoire ? (the subject is implicit here = vous)
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Offline SANDRO43

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Re: The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2012, 03:01:00 AM »
Quote from: Patagonie on April 04, 2012, 02:19:45 AM
Pourquoi vous ne nous avez pas raconté votre histoire? = correct form.
Better: pourquoi ne pas nous raconter votre histoire?
Well well well, it seems that NOUS can follow PAS, after all :-\.

Would "Pourquoi vous n'avez pas nous raconté votre histoire?" also be syntactically correct, or should it be "Pourquoi vous nous n'avez pas raconté votre histoire?"?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 03:35:59 AM by SANDRO43 »
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Offline ghost of moon goddess

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Re: The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2012, 03:34:43 AM »
Well, the only question waiting to be answered - can PAS be followed by NOUS ?  :-\
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Offline SANDRO43

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Re: The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #23 on: April 04, 2012, 03:38:34 AM »
Quote from: ghost of moon goddess on April 04, 2012, 03:34:43 AM
Well, the only question waiting to be answered - can PAS be followed by NOUS ?  :-\
Probably the answer is: "It depends on the circumstances" ;D.
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Offline ghost of moon goddess

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Re: The Finer Points of French Grammar and Stubborn Men
« Reply #24 on: April 04, 2012, 03:43:02 AM »
mainly, on those involved in decision making  :D
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If you want to keep your expressions convergent, never allow them a single degree of freedom.
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