View from a married guy

[pitbull]

I was always around but so was mother-in-law. I know how it must read but I was very limited in my involvement with my daughter. There was no negotiation regarding our daughter in terms of my involvement.
It is sad but it is getting better. nOt the understanding on her part but how involved I am allowed to be with my daughter because of my visitation.

 
This is sad. Also, another cultural trait of a "traditional" society that some FSUW will carry.
This is the belief that it is not a man's business to raise a child and to add anything meaningful to a child's upbringing (especially up to the school age). Men cannot take care of kids, they should be working and making money. A mother takes care of the kids 100% and makes all the decisions. A father's involvement is marginal, the opinions are dismissed. I personally met women like this. They could not leave a baby with their father for 2 hours, thought the father won't be able to do this by the vertue of being a man.
 ibelieve it is very important to discuss how the prospective spose sees the upbringing of the kids, level of involvement, decision making etc.

[GregfromGa]

Pitbull you seem like a smart woman.  There is no way to go back and un-ring this bell. It is what it is I guess. All I can do is continue to spend as much time as I possibly can with my children. She will continue to violate the judges orders and she will be held in contempt. She is always right and she knows best because she is the mother. Since she doesnt have one friend whom she can confide in here she will continue to gather poisonous information from people who doesnt know. Her new lawyer will of course take her money but in the end he will never be able to reason with her. I have to worry about her taking my kids to Ukraine and never returning therefore I will never sign the passport renewal for my daughter.  I'm sure I'm not the first to go down this road.

[GregfromGa]

I suspect this is the child's personality, not the lack of language, though the language may have exacerbated the problem.  I have known a lot of immigrants, mostly Ukrainians, whose children had no problem learning English and making friends, even though they started school with zero English language skills.  I have also seen this with my kids' classmates, who are from all over - Poland, China (predominant), Colombia, Chile.  All those kids adapted quickly, and quite a few of them were very popular.  My daughter even learned a lot of Spanish in kindergarten, enough to carry on simple conversations with adults.  Some of the parents assumed hubby was Colombian or Chilean, LOL.  By year end, all those kids were speaking English fluently.

I have also witnessed most of those kids refuse to speak their native language, usually by answering their parents in English.  I think it is because they want to fit in and, after a time, speaking English is easier.  They get over it by high school.

In Greg's case, it appears to me that not allowing him to speak English with his children in his own home was a form of control.  It isolated him from his children, and that is very, very wrong.

Boethius, LOL, this may be the first time in the history of our history that we have have ever agreed at least publicly. LOL..The way my ex dominates the raising of our children would have eventually taken it's toll so I guess it's better to just get it over now. Unless you were under our roof then you simply cannot fathom how it went with her and her mom running every aspect of my childrens life. We have a pond in our backyard and I wanted my little girl to get swimming lessons last summer while I was still in the home. I had arranged private swim lessons. Absolutely not. She is not going to be a swimmer.  It is insane at the mindset that her and only her have to make every decision regarding our children.  Oh and soup, they have to have soup every day because thats what her mom says to do.
I'm not here asking for sympathy from anyone. I'm a big boy I guess. There will be people that say I want to hear her side. Doesnt matter I guess because no one here knew us except for Gator and a few others that have since left the boards. Looking back there was not a single friend of my wife's at our wedding. I found that odd. She never had friends back home. She never made a single friend here. No one was good enough, educated enough,stylish enough, everyone was fake,everyone wanted something for nothing here. Many of you know I made 5 trips back and forth staying there for a month at the time most times before we were married. There were bumps in the road when she arrived but that's pretty normal. Most of the serious trouble started when her mother came and when the children were born. I could go on and on and on but it's irrelevant I guess. Certainly no science to this madness.

[calmissile]

I suspect this is the child's personality, not the lack of language, though the language may have exacerbated the problem.  I have known a lot of immigrants, mostly Ukrainians, whose children had no problem learning English and making friends, even though they started school with zero English language skills.  I have also seen this with my kids' classmates, who are from all over - Poland, China (predominant), Colombia, Chile.  All those kids adapted quickly, and quite a few of them were very popular.  My daughter even learned a lot of Spanish in kindergarten, enough to carry on simple conversations with adults.  Some of the parents assumed hubby was Colombian or Chilean, LOL.  By year end, all those kids were speaking English fluently.

I have also witnessed most of those kids refuse to speak their native language, usually by answering their parents in English.  I think it is because they want to fit in and, after a time, speaking English is easier.  They get over it by high school.

In Greg's case, it appears to me that not allowing him to speak English with his children in his own home was a form of control.  It isolated him from his children, and that is very, very wrong.

+1    Exactly what I have also witnessed in America among immigrants from most countries.  The kids learn English quickly even if their parents take a lot longer.... or never.

I think that in Greg's case his mother-in-law from hell was probably a significant factor in his wife not adapting to her new culture.

[TheTraveler]

Why on earth would your daughter be lacking in English with you around anyway? Didn't you take a part in teaching her English when you were at home?

it's always amusing to read the opinions of a parenting know-it-all... when said know-it-all has never actually fathered children (much less provided for, raised, educated, coached their teams, etc.).
 
oh... but i'm sure he'll tell us what a wonderful uncle he is with his nieces and nephews.  lol.
 

[TheTraveler]

a fair question from someone who has actually fathered (or mothered) and raised children.
 

[Boethius]

Why?  Even people who have never parented can see that, for example, their friends have bilingual children.  Where I would question comments by non parents is in disciplining children.  Until you've lived it, you don't know how difficult it is to balance discipline vs letting children grow and learn.

Greg explained his situation, which is not the norm.  His MIL put a wedge in his family.

[GQBlues]

...I suspect this is the child's personality, not the lack of language, though the language may have exacerbated the problem.  I have known a lot of immigrants, mostly Ukrainians, whose children had no problem learning English and making friends, even though they started school with zero English language skills....

Just as pitbull mentioned, methinks both your suspicion is right on the money. The boy did have a spoiled streak about him even at that young age. He pretty much had his way with his Mumski...so inevitably when he attempted to relate to his school mates and/or teacher and not knowing the language at all in the initial periods 'could have' fostered more challenges in his social development.

I, too, didn't speak English when I first arrived here and was forbidden to speak my native tongue at home. Mumski's reasoning was US's language is English and it is incumbent upon me to learn as quickly as possible. But I got tell you...from my POV, it wasn't a picnic and I can fully understand how this can be challenging times even for kids on the onset especially when you're surrounded by a few kids who speak the language you don't understand.

Ideally, as mentioned, two equal sources of languages in the household is the best way going...

[Boethius]

How old were you when you came to the US?  Do you still speak (I assume Tagalog)?

[GQBlues]

I was almost 10 years old when I arrived. My folks were pretty 'poor' so they couldn't really afford to send me to a language school..and much of the things available today didn't exist back then..ESLs, computers, eTranslators, etc...so it wasn't easy.

Yes, I still understand Tagalog, though speaking is never without difficulties. I am saying that mildly. I can also 'understand' Spanish when spoken, but not without deciphering what was said for a few seconds/minutes...

[Gator]

There are kids who struggle in one language and require years of speech therapy. No need to push the second language in this situation.

I don't believe we are on the same wavelength.   Some elaboration may help. 
 
A highly educated child in the Netherlands will be proficient not only in Dutch but English, German and French as well.   Because my friends are in the Dutch foreign service, they rarely were located where the kids could receive a Dutch education.    Instead the kids attended international schools in Moscow, Tokyo, Mexico City, Pretoria and Budapest.   They were taught in English plus some training in the local language.
 
The parents spoke Dutch at home.   Instead of speaking Dutch when playing among themselves, the three kids  elected to speak English.   That fact shocked the parents.  It was just an observation that kids will do what they want to do even if against parents' wishes.
 

Sure, most kids will do fine in life with just English. But why knowingly deny a child an opportunity to enrich their life and the advantages of speaking more than one language?

I did not suggest such.   I am saying just make sure that the children excel in the language in which they will be educated. It is a highly competitive world.

[Ade]

it's always amusing to read the opinions of a parenting know-it-all... when said know-it-all has never actually fathered children (much less provided for, raised, educated, coached their teams, etc.).
 
oh... but i'm sure he'll tell us what a wonderful uncle he is with his nieces and nephews.  lol.

It's always amusing to read opinions of the not too bright. lol    "Coached their teams..." ? lol Really?


Here's something I do know; when it looked like my relationship with my ex-wife was a little off, I chose not to have kids with her until things improved between us because I knew that bringing kids into a flawed marriage was not the best thing for kids. Something I knew even though I'd not done that before - strange that, huh?


Things never did improve, and I continued to not have kids with her. It turned out that my ex-wife was certifiable - and by that, I mean nuts not in the way most men voice an opinion about their ex-wives, but in a real, having-to-be-treated-and-medicated-by-psychiatrists-for-several-years kinda way. Now, what I know about Greg which all men should take a lesson from, is that he married someone that was a little off at the outset (from his own account of her prior to marriage) which was perhaps partially hidden by the language barrier and the usual "cultural" misconception thing; he then proceeded to have a daughter with her (apparently without any discussions on shared values, upbringing, language training and so forth) and even then, when it was so blindingly obvious that she was under the thumb of her equally nutty mother that even he could no longer ignore it, and that she was excluding him from the upbringing of their daughter, even then, he still chose to have another kid with her. If this is as he says, then it somewhat beggars belief.


Let me tell you, even though I've yet to father a child (which btw, was no accident and quite deliberate), my wife and I have discussed at length many of the aspects relevant to our future child's upbringing, including discipline, language, schools, my MILs role in this (or not as is the case) and many other things which every couple should discuss before they blindly father a child. Unlike most men, I actually think that fathering a child is such an incredible responsibility that it is nigh on criminal to do so without thinking all of these things through and discussing it as a couple at length. No matter how bad men like Greg feel about their failing marriages, their kids will suffer far worse for their parents mistakes than they will and will probably carry some scars for the rest of their lives as a result.

[TheTraveler]

It's always amusing to read opinions of the not too bright. lol    "Coached their teams..." ? lol. Really?

i suppose a two year old is an expert on changing diapers, too... because he's been shitting into one for the past two years?

coach their teams... yes, that can be a part of the work that goes into being a successful dad (or mom), and one that popped into my head since my oldest girl expressed her appreciation for it the other day. i also could have tossed in 'paying for private school tuition', but they're on summer break, so it slipped my mind.

and if i'm the one who's 'not too bright', then how is it that i'm the one who didn't end up marrying (and wasting 10 years on) a certifiable/psychiatrically medicated spouse?  fair question?

the answer is that neither greg, you, or me is perfect. greg may have made some choices that (in hindsight) he would do differently now. but despite his failed marriage, he sounds like he's trying to stay in his kids' lives and be a responsible dad. 

[Ade]

and if i'm the one who's 'not too bright', then how is it that i'm the one who didn't end up marrying (and wasting 10 years on) a certifiable/psychiatrically medicated spouse?  fair question?

Sometimes it just comes down to blind dumb luck.


For me, well, predicting future mental illness because of repressed child sex abuse wasn't a part of my tea-leaf reading skills. Luck can fall both ways I guess. But I grew and learned by my mistakes. It happens. To some of us.

the answer is that neither greg, you, or me is perfect. greg may have made some choices that (in hindsight) he would do differently now. but despite his failed marriage, he sounds like he's trying to stay in his kids' lives and be a responsible dad.

Perhaps, but if posts like his are to be worth something more than back slapping mutual appreciation and sympathy, the past mistakes that led to this point should be highlighted objectively so that all those that think marrying and having kids with someone they hardly know, who has a different language, different outlook, and different values to you is a good idea, think again, and perhaps make them realize that the outcome can be a lot less romantic than a walk in the park. And it's the kids that really suffer for the self-delusion, blindness and stupidity.
 

[Boethius]

Most people believe they will be the exception to the rule.  So, despite the warnings, even the signals, they will usually make the same mistakes.

[Ade]

Most people believe they will be the exception to the rule.  So, despite the warnings, even the signals, they will usually make the same mistakes.

Perhaps. But even if just one guy avoids getting married because he didn't ignore that little suspicion or only has one kid instead of two in a fundamentally flawed marriage, just because he read a dissected train wreck, then it'll be worth it.

[TheTraveler]

Perhaps. But even if just one guy avoids getting married because he didn't ignore that little suspicion or only has one kid instead of two in a fundamentally flawed marriage, just because he read a dissected train wreck, then it'll be worth it.

nah... the dummy will probably just dismiss the analysis of those who have achieved any different (better) outcome in life as simply beneficiaries of 'blind dumb luck'.

[Ade]

nah... the dummy will probably just dismiss the analysis of those who have achieved any different (better) outcome in life as simply beneficiaries of 'blind dumb luck'.

And your analysis is, at least according to your first response to me in this thread, don't analyse unless you've been there and done that, right?    Pretty dumb idea that.


And going back to that comment you attempted to disparage, I can assure you that if I wanted my child to speak English, and my wife were teaching Russian, I would teach my child English. No if's, but's or maybe's. I would not depend on my wife to do that job if it were me that felt so strongly about it. Of course, I've read a bit and talked to people that have experienced the multilingual child process so I'd know that it's not a big deal anyway, certainly not enough to cause marital friction over it to the extent that Greg seems to have experienced.   


As for the rest of the silly stuff, ice in drinks, soup every day, hermit wife, MIL dictator, etc, I mean, really, what person gets married and has not one, but two kids with someone they do not know? Well, obviously Greg did. And here's the outcome. Newbies take note.

[GregfromGa]

I'm pretty sure I knew my wife Ade. We were married 3 years before my G5 came along. I think you missed the point that I made when I said she's not even remotely close to the girl I met, made all those trips to see and married. When the baby came along things changed especially my son.It's so easy to set on the sideline and talk about shoulda, coulda and woulda. I appreciate your input here. You make a few valid points but to dismiss this as "well you had not one but two kids with someone you didnt know and now you pay the price" well you're going to have to do better. There certainly is a lesson here for sure but since this isnt a science I'm not sure what it is. The dependence on her mom never showed up while I was on one of my 6 trips to Ukraine. She never said "when we have a child or two I'm going to continue to sleep with them until their teen years. She obviously never said "you know I'll have to be with you every time you take them to the park. I could go on. At the end of the day if some guy on here reads about this train wreck and is able to learn from it great. If some woman is able to read it and say that sounds a little like me maybe I need to back off some of my perceptions on raising her kids the way her mama wants then great.

I'm not sure how many posters we have had here since it's inception that got divorced. I can think of 5 or 6 off hand. I'm sure there are more. I think it's easier for the guys in Europe. I know some might disagree but there is a difference. Who knows?  I'm all out of advice these days.

[LiveFromUkraine]

As for the rest of the silly stuff, ice in drinks, soup every day, hermit wife, MIL dictator, etc, I mean, really, what person gets married and has not one, but two kids with someone they do not know? Well, obviously Greg did. And here's the outcome. Newbies take note.

It seems strange to me that you, who married someone that hid deep issues, would bust Greg's balls for not knowing his wife better.  Why would you marry someone you didn't know better?   Ah, luck of the draw for you but Greg doesn't get that courtesy.

I have never known a couple who planned out child rearing, in detail, before they had kids.  Maybe talking about a thing or two but nothing like you are suggesting that Greg should have known.

[Faux Pas]

I'm pretty sure I knew my wife Ade. We were married 3 years before my G5 came along. I think you missed the point that I made when I said she's not even remotely close to the girl I met, made all those trips to see and married. When the baby came along things changed especially my son.It's so easy to set on the sideline and talk about shoulda, coulda and woulda. I appreciate your input here. You make a few valid points but to dismiss this as "well you had not one but two kids with someone you didnt know and now you pay the price" well you're going to have to do better. There certainly is a lesson here for sure but since this isnt a science I'm not sure what it is. The dependence on her mom never showed up while I was on one of my 6 trips to Ukraine. She never said "when we have a child or two I'm going to continue to sleep with them until their teen years. She obviously never said "you know I'll have to be with you every time you take them to the park. I could go on. At the end of the day if some guy on here reads about this train wreck and is able to learn from it great. If some woman is able to read it and say that sounds a little like me maybe I need to back off some of my perceptions on raising her kids the way her mama wants then great.

I'm not sure how many posters we have had here since it's inception that got divorced. I can think of 5 or 6 off hand. I'm sure there are more. I think it's easier for the guys in Europe. I know some might disagree but there is a difference. Who knows?  I'm all out of advice these days.

Hey Greg

So sorry to hear about the bust up guy. Divorce usually is never a positive thing especially for the kids. All the Monday morning quarterbacking in the world isn't going to change whatever your eventual outcome is going to be. I wouldn't give much credence to the remarks from the been there done that or the haven't been there and done that's. You situation is pretty much yours alone. Many might have sympathy or not but they don't know your situation or what you're feeling and going through.

Keep in mind, people change. You and her. Both of you may have been everything each other believed 7-8 years ago. Feelings change too, add to the mix children, a meddling MIL and other life's pressures and outcomes and futures uncertain. Don't beat up on yourself on what you think you might have missed, what might have been, or how could you not see,  too much. If the relationship is beyond repair, keep your focus on the children and don't hesitate to move on. Good luck in any event.

[Boethius]

I have never known a couple who planned out child rearing, in detail, before they had kids.  Maybe talking about a thing or two but nothing like you are suggesting that Greg should have known.

That's not what Ade posted.  But having similar values (spank or no spanking is one - what happens if parents are diametrically opposed on that issue?) and approaches is important.  The only area my husband and I argued about, ever, was in disciplining our children.   

It sounds to me as if Greg's wife suffered postpartum depression.  Left untreated, that depression remains. 

[GregfromGa]

That's not what Ade posted.  But having similar values (spank or no spanking is one - what happens if parents are diametrically opposed on that issue?) and approaches is important.  The only area my husband and I argued about, ever, was in disciplining our children.   

It sounds to me as if Greg's wife suffered postpartum depression.  Left untreated, that depression remains.

I really think you are right Boethius. That's twice we have agreed lately. I'm no doctor but I firmly believe that. Her unwillingness for counsel on the marriage end of it might have helped discover it but at the end of the day her mom said no one else could help us it was left up to us therefore she would never go. I threw out the ole well if your tooth hurts you go to a dentist or if your car breaks you go see a mechanic but to no avail. It doesnt matter what diagnosis she may one day get it would involve trusting another persons opinion. My wife would trust someone on a message board whom she had never met before she would a local doctor with his diploma posted on the wall behind his desk. The whole concept of trusting a preacher was out the window. She totally dismissed the advice and opinion of a very nice Ukrainian Orthodox priest last April. I dont know what the lesson is in all this. I probably dont need to be here with my situation but someone might learn from it maybe who knows. I've been a member of these boards since 2001 I guess. I've been hard on newbies before but I promise it was in their protective interest. People here have come and gone. I've made and remained friends and actually attended a posters wedding in the past. I seriously doubt I would ever go down this road again but who knows. My children are half Ukrainian, part Russian so a have no ill feelings toward this concept and endeavor.  I'm certainly not looking to jump back into the fire but I do appreciate a lady who can make me laugh. My ex had the best sense of humor. I think I do.

[Belvis]

she's not even remotely close to the girl I met, made all those trips to see and married. When the baby came along things changed especially my son.

Can a man know better his the chosen one  in advance to avoid her sudden change later? I think it would be impossible to eliminate this risk completely.  However  a marriage is not like a russian roulette, one may work odds in his favor. I remember clear when I had decided that my girl could be my wife. It has happened when I've  got to know in details her life during hard times. She did not collapse and fought to survive on her own. I thought: Well, she seems to become hardened enough to endure me or whatever troubles in the long run.  Years show she is not changing. Even in weight, that is rather unexpected bonus.

[ML]

Can a man know better his the chosen one  in advance to avoid her sudden change later? I think it would be impossible to eliminate this risk completely.  However  a marriage is not like a russian roulette, one may work odds in his favor. I remember clear when I had decided that my girl could be my wife. It has happened when I've  got to know in details her life during hard times. She did not collapse and fought to survive on her own. I thought: Well, she seems to become hardened enough to endure me or whatever troubles in the long run.  Years show she is not changing. Even in weight, that is rather unexpected bonus.

Yes, the intelligent men and women will try to learn all they can about their future mates.  And they try to assess how the potential mate will act and react under various circumstances and stresses.  By doing such, they can perhaps reduce by some percentage the risks of a horrid outcome.

But, after the risk reduction . . . you are still left with the luck factor.