How important is woman's English abilities?

[andrewfi]

jb ~ Different people have different needs from a relationship and some are simply much more desperate and will settle for much less than normal people. For these reasons one can never prove the point to the satisfaction of either the non-communicators, or the desperate hopefuls.

So, the discussion, of what to normal people is self evident, will continue becasue there will always be another desperate hopeful or non-communicator in search of his/her heart's desire.

[groovlstk]

[size="3"]Time and again I see men who are chasing FSU girls half  their age rationalize their behavior by saying things like, "this whole  thing is a huge risk, why is the age part any different?" Or making  Oprah-ish statements like "each relationship should be evaluated on  it's own merits, there's no point in generalizing."

Since after 6 week-long trips I've got nothing to show except for a lot  of photos, a depleted bank account, and a month-long case of Kuchma's  revenge that still makes me shudder when I think of it, I'm certainly  no expert. But it doesn't take an expert to understand that there are  ways to mitigate your risk. Don't chase girls who are young enough to  be your daughter, don't ignore red flags (my favorite is the  oft-repeated "in person she seems indifferent to me, but her emails and  phone calls are so passionate!"). I think the biggest danger in this  pursuit is how GD easy it is to rationalize anything once you meet a  girl beautiful enough to stop you in your tracks. [/size]  

[andrewfi]

[user=238]groovlstk[/user] ~ People are very willing to increase their risks when they are desperate, just look at what people write every day on this very board. If a man cannot find a woman, or one who will accept him, he will do what he thinks he needs to do. The sad thing is that we tend to rationalise our actions and attitudes as being sensible, I guess that if we did not we could not do these things.

[swindoom]

To limit yourself to only FSU women who are good at English certainly seems foolish to me as you restrict your search to a very limited selection of women. If you progress your relationship normally there is plenty of time for her to improve her English and for you to improve your Russian. If you are not willing to overcome a small problem such as language ability then what will you do when real serious problems occur.

Of course if you are a one visit wonder, who for some reason needs to propose on the first visit as you are in some desperate rush to marry as soon as possible then an English speaking FSU woman will be required, in my opinion.

[andrewfi]

Swindoom ~ think about what you are writing!

If you met a woman in the normal course of your life, talk with her, yes?

If she did not talk with you then you would swiftly move past her, yes?

If you do not have a means to communicate, except by mediated means then you will not know anything except that which the translator allows you to know. There can be no spontenaity.

When you meet you can learn nothing of the person unless you can communicate.

But then, as I wrote above, there are those who have low standards when it comes to communication and those who are desperate enough to attempt to marry a stranger. Perhaps your suggestion that lack of any manner of communicating without intermediaries is indication of where you stand.:huh:

I have tried the way of the non-communicators and desperate men, as I noted above. perhaps this is soemthing that you need to try for yourself. The difference is that furthest I ever needed to travel was a few hours on a train at a cost of a few dollars.

[Michelangelo]

I have lived several months in Ukraine, meeting and dating girls.  Most have spoken English, a few have not.

I'm now in a very successful 6 month relationship with a girl from UA.  Her English is excellent.  I have met her 4 times and we have had face-to-face indepth disucssion on so many issues.  And 12,000 sms and lots of phone conversations...

We are working through a lot of issues before marriage that will help us succeed in marriage...

I shudder to think about marrying someone I had not had these discussions with...  

So my vote is for dating and marrying girls with good English.

[swindoom]

If you are are a good communicator or determined enough you can communicate with anyone, they are plenty of ways of working through this initial problem.

What I am trying to say is that lack of English ability at the beginning is not important, it just means you have to make more of an effort. Her ability to learn is very important as if you do not understand each other you cannot really ask someone to get married. If you progress the relationship normally by the time you actually pop the question she will not only understand what you say but also comprehend what you say.

I can understand why many men prefer English speakers, it is one less problem/expense to deal with, but this exclusion criteria is not for me.

[andrewfi]

Swindoom ~ You seem to be one of those 'good communicators'! The ones who think they are good at something whilst all the time they are simply not getting the message.

Kinda like being colour blind - if you have never seen red, how to describe it?

But from a practical point of view, there is simply no need to deal with women who do not have English skills. They learned it at school! Of course the dimmies, lazy ones and a few who learned German instead can be excluded. Do you seek a dimmy, or lazy girl?

I think it is safe to say that a good communicator would know the true value of spoken language.

[Leslie]

This board is getting very proscriptive!

There are no universal laws here like the kind you find in Physics.

When I met my wife she spoke no English whatsoever.  Yes that's right.  NONE.

On a scale of 1 to 10, my Russian was a 3.

Never used an interpreter.  Learnt each others language.  Completely wrecked three dictionaries. 

In a year my Russian had progressed to where it is now.  Maybe 5.  Nataliya's English maybe 7.  Of that year we had spent 10 months together.  Split roughly 50/50 between Ukraine and UK. 

9 months after that we had our first argument  in English which Nataliya won.  Her comment.  I was not going to argue with you in English until it was good enough to win!

Not sharing a common language makes relationship building more difficult. 

WAY MORE DIFFICULT.

In my opinion translators and interpretors do not help.  They make the situation worse.  They establish and maintain FALSE communication.  You have to work through the barriers yourselves.  No one can do this for you.  It is very hard, frustrating work.  If you are not prepared to give this effort.  Find a lady who speaks English.  It is very much easier.

 

[BC]

Leslie,

Just curious.. how well were you two able to communicate when you married?

[swindoom]

Then Omsk must be a very unique place in Russia as during my visits I met very few people who spoke English and the ones that did, did not speak it too well, in fact thinking about it many people in Moscow also could not speak English.

I get the message you are writing I just do not agree with it, not only from thinking about it but from practical experience. If you are looking for someone very special why limit yourself to a minority of the women looking for a foreign husband. How many women who learnt abit of English while at school are still going to remember it 10 or so years later let alone be still good at it. I learnt French at school but I would have no chance of speaking it now as I have never had to use it since school.

Think about it the other way round, what sense would it make for an FSU woman to only communicate with western men who could speak Russian well.

[swindoom]

I agree with you Leslie, 100%.

[KenC]

If a RW is sincerely interested in pursuing a relationship with a man from an English speaking country, shouldn't she be at least trying to learn English?  I would have my doubts if she wasn't. 

KenC

[Rvrwind]

Ken - the simple answer to that is 'No'.

I have asked nearly every lady in the program that question & most give me the exact same answer. Their chances of actually meeting a westerner face to face are so astronomical that most feel their is no need to waste valuable time learning English for an event that most likely will never happen.

Most know that English is an easy language to learn & feel that if they do meet a guy & sparks fly then they have good reason to learn but before that why waste the time. That is right from the 'horses mouth' so to speak.

I have many times counselled ladies & even told them that it would increase their chances as many men won't date ladies that don't speak English. The result & answer is still the same. When they meet a man & feel there is something there, they will bust their hump to learn (my Valya is a prime example) but until then they feel their lives are more importnat in other area's than chasing after a pipedream.

RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[andrewfi]

Ken, I agree. This has been my universal experience of women who are seeking a trip to an English speaking country. The committed ones will have brushed up on their highschool English. The uncommitted ones will not - no matter what excuses they come up with! Don't forget that she will, unless she learned a differnt language at school, have been taught English, if she went to university, she will have had to reach a decent level. So, this comes down to ability and what guys will settle for...

The only exception being women who have never considered the idea of a foreign husband; but these women are, to all intents and purposes, invisible to the mono-lingual, anglophone wife hunter, they are not to be found in an agency, or within the confines of the agency 'bubble'!.

 

[KenC]

Thanks for the answer, Richard, as illogical as it is!:shock:

KenC

[Rvrwind]

Thanks for the answer, Richard, as illogical as it is!:shock:

KenC

Hey: we are dealing with Women here, Logic is not even in the equation!!!:shock: Logic is a totally foreign concept to most women I have ever delt with.:noidea:

RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner
[/b]

[catzenmouse]

Ken - the simple answer to that is 'No'.

I have asked nearly every lady in the program that question & most give me the exact same answer. Their chances of actually meeting a westerner face to face are so astronomical that most feel their is no need to waste valuable time learning English for an event that most likely will never happen.

Most know that English is an easy language to learn & feel that if they do meet a guy & sparks fly then they have good reason to learn but before that why waste the time. That is right from the 'horses mouth' so to speak.

I have many times counselled ladies & even told them that it would increase their chances as many men won't date ladies that don't speak English. The result & answer is still the same. When they meet a man & feel there is something there, they will bust their hump to learn (my Valya is a prime example) but until then they feel their lives are more importnat in other area's than chasing after a pipedream.

RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

Elena is a fine example of this as well. She had English in high school but had not used it for years and really saw no need to learn it until there was a reason to do so. With her work and taking care of Sergei and the limited funds available to her it would have been finacially and time prohibitive. After we met and she felt that there was a good reason to learn English she went into it wholeheartedly and arrived here with a good grasp of the language. We practiced a lot on the phone and went back and forth with the dictionary some but overall we had very good conversations.

 She was the star student in her ESL classes here and is not in Advanced classes (and believe me this stuff is not easy and half of her homework I don't have a clue as to what the right answer would be) and is doing great. She works/shops/interacts with others with very little problems but is sick to death of people asking her where she is from.

 So if you want to look for an English speaker by all means do so but there are a LOT of others who are wonderful that you will never know about. To each his own.

Ken

P.S. Swindoom: Omsk is a great place! Lots of untold treasures there.

[Daknack]

Actually it seems perfectly logical to me.

Liken it to playing the lottery.  Few people actually win (Like few get to meet the Western Guy).  But to increase the odds of winning you have to waste alot money playing to increase your chances at winning (or time learning the langauge).  Would it be better to buy a nice meal with that money (Or do more interesting things then study a language), or waste it on what is often a futile pursuit?  I see them as the people that buy one lottery ticket and hope for the best, where as the others might throw all the eggs in one basket and hope they dont go bankrupt.

[BillyB]

My fiancee knows German more than English since she had plans going to Germany to work. Her English was rusty since she hadn't spoken it since high school. Her plans are to be with me so I told her to take some English lessons until then. Lessons are expensive so I understand women that put off learning English until they have the need to.

There are many sincere FSU women who can't speak English but we must realize the less conversation we have with the woman, the less chance we have in figuring out if they are indeed sincere and a good match.

[Rvrwind]

Or as my wife, the resident smartass puts it, if you are sincere about meeting & dating Russian women, why don't you learn Russian!!!!!!!:shock:

Don't bother I already lost that argument a long time ago!!!:(

RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

[KenC]

Or as my wife, the resident smartass puts it, if you are sincere about meeting & dating Russian women, why don't you learn Russian!!!!!!!:shock:

Don't bother I already lost that argument a long time ago!!!:(

RVR-Canadian Cowboy/Agency Owner

In your situation (living in Russia) that is a most practical solution.  When I offered to learn Russian my wife asked, "Why bother"?  We're not going to live in Russia"!

KenC

[Leslie]

Well Richard puts the situation very well -

The result & answer is still the same. When they meet a man & feel there is something there, they will bust their hump to learn (my Valya is a prime example) but until then they feel their lives are more important in other area's than chasing after a pipe dream.

If she is serious about you and emigrating her English will improve quickly.  If this is not happening -drop her and move on.  A lot of women dream about emigrating but having the courage to do it is much rarer.

If I had my time over.  I would -

1. Learn Russian from the beginning.

2. Stay out of the agency scene completely.

I found by personal experience that the good looking women who speak English in the agency scene should be avoided.  Far too many catfish in this pond!

The agency interpretors (usually young women)  are even worse.  Exposure to the agency scene CORRUPTS.   The most evil witch I ever had the misfortune to meet started out as an EC interpretor back in 96.

What this endeavor needs is time and effort - not money.  You can sign up to a language school and live in a bedsit for the whole summer for the cost of a 2 week big agency tour.

 

 

 

[ronin308]

andrew as Richard and others have stated, unlike what you believe, many women inside the agency "bubble" are not looking at the agency as the only means to an end.  Many women are also looking inside their countries and hope to broaden their horizons by adding the posibility of marrying someone foreign.  They tend to only start to learn the language if they have other motivations (career most likely) or they're a scammer.  Most will only start learning when they feel they actually have someone interested in them.

As to their "native" ability, I took Spanish in school and while I understand a bit, I can't effectively communicate with it.

When I met my now fiance she was able to understand many of the words I was saying but it's a big jump to feeling up to actually speaking in the language.  After my first week with her, when she felt a commitment she began to learn in earnest.  Now while she's a bit intimitated speaking to others, she and I will not have the problems Doug is with language.  We haven't used an interpreter for over 6 months which includes my many visits back to her.  It simply hasn't been needed.

 

[andrewfi]

Ronin

1) Most young women DO have some English unless they were taught German or French at school. For myself, I do not think I would be able to be happy with a woman whose intellectual capacity did not extend to learning a second language - others are obviously of different opinion.

2) Whilst women who are signed up with agencies are almost certainly enjoying the company of local guys, in signing up with an agency they made a choice,  been making that point for years -good that you and some others now agree! If they lack the comittment to even start the process of preparing for a favourable outcome then, frankly, they are not worth bothering with. (your opinion and standards may vary!)

3) If you actually participated in the process of learning Spanish, rather than simply attending classes, then you would probably find, as most who actually bothered to learn do, that one's knowledge rapidly comes back to the fore. Of course, it could be that you are seeking somebody at a similar level of attainment as yourself and so do not find it odd that somebody taught a language for 3-5 years and exposed to it, on a daily basis through TV, might not know anything. This is always a problem in a discussion; finding the level.

Joining an agency is a lifetime choice, even if the chances of ultimate success are quite small, the motivated woman will choose to increase her chances of success. If you want to marry a lazy or dumb, or a passively reactive woman then have fun, it is not my choice! Perhas when giving your opinion you should qualify by telling us what your criteria are?

In the end this comes down to what you will accept. Leslie, IIRC, married a woman who was not seeking a foreign man and I can understand that her English was rusty or non-existant, but how is her German? But not many here have the strength to do what Les did. Given that, it behoves you more ordinary fellows to improve your chances and thus look for a woman who is setting herself up for success not failure and with whom you can have the kind of conversation that enables a relationship based upon mutual understanding and knowledge to grow!

But, to repeat myself, there are many who are desperate enough or with low enough standards that communication can be removed from the picture.