After a little experience, but still a long way from "MARRIAGE"

[LiveFromUkraine]

If what is posted is true, then it isn't ass kissing.  I think Ranetka is a treasure.  Statement of personal opinion.  Just because someone has a favorable opinion of a woman here or anywhere) doesn't necessarily mean he's kissing her ass.

No, it wasn't about a specific post but about the mindset that men tend to have when it comes to "whiteknighting" women.  It isn't about having a favorable opinion of women.  I like to think we all do.  It is more about allowing women to behave in ways that wouldn't be acceptable for men.  By allowing I mean coming to their defense when the crap hits the fan so to speak. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

For a man it's better to kiss a woman's ass than that of another man. You may disagree.

I think it is better to not kiss anyone's ass.  In a relationship, I will be willing to do things that will make my partner happy because, in turn, it makes me happy.  I still do it because it makes me happy.


I don't see why I should kiss the ass of a woman I never met or am not in a relationship with.  Yet, you see that type of behavior prevalent in today's society.

[Ranetka]

I don't see why I should kiss the ass of a woman I never met or am not in a relationship with.  Yet, you see that type of behavior prevalent in today's society.

What I see that some men see an agreement with a man for what it is - an agreement and agreement with a woman as kissing her ass. As a woman hearing that when someone agrees with me he is kissing my ass is insulting for me. It means "you" (whoever calls the process ass kissing) does not believe someone can share or just like my point of view. Why? Because I am a female. Insulting point of view and using insulting language as well.

[Ranetka]

The only time I see the process I could call "ass-kissing" or worse is when a young new female poster comes in with an avatar full of boobs and legs. Then the men's eagerness is really funny to watch. But that's only natural. 


(Hopefully no-one here is excited by my avatar????)

[LiveFromUkraine]

What I see that some men see an agreement with a man for what it is - an agreement and agreement with a woman as kissing her ass. As a woman hearing that when someone agrees with me he is kissing my ass is insulting for me. It means "you" (whoever calls the process ass kissing) does not believe someone can share or just like my point of view. Why? Because I am a female. Insulting point of view and using insulting language as well.

You're right, it is insulting to think men who agree with you are simply doing so because you are a woman.


Pitt ends up taking a post by Riv personally.   She got personal and then had a tantrum and talked about leaving the forum.  Is that acceptable behavior?  I know I wouldn't be rushing to her defense trying to get her to stay.  If she wants to leave because of some guy's opinion then she should leave.  I actually enjoy some of her posts but don't feel the need to come to her aid or try to make her stay because she was offended. 


With that said, there are men that will try to get her to stay and massage her ego to do so.

[Jumper]

Read carefully.  I never said you (or any woman) were not intelligent, important or without a (valid) point of view.

I said the PW men here give you and other women a false (very inflated) sense of these qualities.  This makes the landing more harsh.

But, of course, everyone knew how my words would be interpreted and twisted.

LOL
no one needs to twist anything?
spin it any way you want, you stating that is as predictable as anything else as well.

Your view was stated that only two groups of men can exist.
That in itself is a fairly silly view.

and that only one PW'ed group participating can ,with a few compliments,
effectively change most of the  womens posters perspective of their value here.
enough that they crash hard if not maintained.

I've consulted my *sensitive* side and its says you seem to have a rather   simplistic view on this.

If your commenting simply on the effects a few compliments make in having RW stay and post thier opinions, I'd say you are very much over stating thier effect.

Many RW are proud and a bit too easily offended. That theme is repeated  in real life and here , and is far more encompassing than a few sensitive men giving some comliments or sharing a viewpoint.



Overall the general value of RW posted opinions,no matter what those opinions are,
to men seeking to date and marry them should be self evident, to a neandrathal or to a man light in his loafers.

whether in what mentalities to avoid, what can or cant be compatible, or the general views they have on men and dating.

You seem to value the opinions,
yet just as eaily seem to think any men agreeing with some of them, or valuing even the opinions they dont agree with, causes some atmosphere of exaultation.

Then we all here debate perspectives?
 

[Muzh]

You get bliss from kissing the ass of women you never met on a message forum?

Heh, I know where you come from. Enjoy what is coming to you. From the ladies, that is. 

heh  Saying ML can't hurt you and then calling the mods in the same sentence is pretty damn funny.

Either you've been under a rock or you are slow. Ask around. Maybe someone will explain it to you.

[Muzh]

For a man it's better to kiss a woman's ass than that of another man. You may disagree.

LMFAO


You see LivefromU? Enjoy what's coming to you. Heh, heh, heh

[Muzh]

No, it wasn't about a specific post but about the mindset that men tend to have when it comes to "whiteknighting" women.  It isn't about having a favorable opinion of women.  I like to think we all do.  It is more about allowing women to behave in ways that wouldn't be acceptable for men.  By allowing I mean coming to their defense when the crap hits the fan so to speak.

Okay, YOU explain to me the "ways that would not be acceptable to men." What is that?


This is going to be good. Heh, heh, heh

[IAmZon]

I agree with Daveman, after the superficialities there is some valid and interesting points of discussion here.   I think people need to try to understand the "gist" of these posts.  I do not treat this stuff like academic argumentation.  It's not worth the effort.

For example,

Your view was stated that only two groups of men can exist.
That in itself is a fairly silly view.

It is an over simplification to suggest that there are ONLY two types of men.  I do not think that is what ML suggested. It certainly is not what I envisioned. Rather, I think of it as a spectrum. 

AND ANOTHER THING.  I do not see this in a simple, one dimensional line.  i.e. in traditional worlds, it's fun to be a man.  in modern worlds, it sucks to be a man.   It should be obvious (perhaps not) that I prefer BOTH genders to be benefit and grow in the modern world.  But, that is not exactly the case, is it?

Of course, SOME woman and SOME men and SOME couples are happy, well balanced, and fulfilled in first worlds, but not all.   There are social transitions happening.  There is not right way / wrong way. And, these topics ought not be taboo.

Again, I may say some stupid things as I jot posts from time to time.  I am not arguing / professing as much as pondering.  I re-read the statement that Pitbull evidently got twisted about, and I see that she may have thought I was advocating that women ought not be educated or emancipated, and if they did ... then they gain 50 lbs.  That is not what I intended.  I was trying to be pithy and I included both male and female in my remarks.

[Muzh]

I think it is better to not kiss anyone's ass.  In a relationship, I will be willing to do things that will make my partner happy because, in turn, it makes me happy.  I still do it because it makes me happy.


I don't see why I should kiss the ass of a woman I never met or am not in a relationship with.  Yet, you see that type of behavior prevalent in today's society.

Oh, one more.


Where was said that men have to kiss a woman's ass to get a woman to like you?


THAT is your perception, isn't it? You do believe you have to be the tough macho guy to have a woman adore you because if you are not tough and macho you'd be considered weak, don't you?


I had many friends who thought like that when they were in high school, but they quickly grew out of that. Why? Well, let's say they wanted to love the ladies. I'd love you go to Puerto Rico and call them pussy-whipped or that they are kissing ass because they are these "weaklings." Heh, heh, heh : D

[Ranetka]

PREFERENTIAL treatment?  are you shitting me!  I am having to deep six and rebuild tons of identity / reputation stuff as a cost of my participation here.

You know whatever I say here I will not have to close my facebook profile. You know why? Because whatever I say here I can say to anyone's face and show to any of my friends. Called nothing to be ashamed of. So why exactly did you have to rebuild tons of identity?

[IAmZon]

You know whatever I say here I will not have to close my facebook profile. You know why? Because whatever I say here I can say to anyone's face and show to any of my friends.

Well, that's one way to do it.  I like the idea of having such a life, having either very open minded friends, business associates, and family, all of whom have similar values and outlooks; or very accepting? 

I, on the other hand, have totally different kinds of friends and social circles. Democrats and Republicans.  Religious and antsiest. I think many people do.  In such circumstances it is best to be aware at least .... sophisticated / prepared probably is best.

I know many people would judge this very discussion board and its topics are "scandalous," for example.  Mail Order Bride stereotypes.  I think it is naive to not be aware of all the possible social conflicts.

I understand people's judgments, no matter how misguided I personally think they may be.  It is interesting these days the mere association or suggestion is enough to constitute "FACTS."  In cases of fabrication, fraud, and lies ... risk and damages are  is even worse.

[Shadow]

But if you have to rebuild uch things it clearly means you are not open and honest in your communications. After all when something as simple as what you do or did for occupation and where you like to build a relationship is enough to damage your connections, are they really worth having ?

[IAmZon]

But if you have to rebuild uch things it clearly means you are not open and honest in your communications. After all when something as simple as what you do or did for occupation and where you like to build a relationship is enough to damage your connections, are they really worth having ?

Of course!  But, I do not find the modern life so simplistic.  Do you?  Should you?

I am open to developing a serious relationship with a woman that is not American.  That is enough to wave a red flag to some of my "friends" or "friends of friends".   I have spent much time outside the USA, and am interesting in living off-shore - out of the USA.  That is enough to wave a red flag to some.  I can easily imagine a potential client, or his well-meaning wife, drawing negative conclusions and prejudices simply by my involvement in anything associated with MOB (and for any of you to think this is an untruth, you are kidding yourself)

Hell, I took "dance classes" ... and THAT is enough for some people, in some situations, to draw an undesirable conclusion. (unserious / weak) When you allow yourself to see all the potential unintended fall out that is likely through unregulated associations, it is unsettling.

[Daveman]

No, it wasn't about a specific post but about the mindset that men tend to have when it comes to "whiteknighting" women.  It isn't about having a favorable opinion of women.  I like to think we all do.  It is more about allowing women to behave in ways that wouldn't be acceptable for men.  By allowing I mean coming to their defense when the crap hits the fan so to speak.

I get what you mean.  Here I'd like to pose some questions.. seriously...


How does the concept of chivalry relate?  Are men not traditionally considered to be the protectors of women (not that some need it)?  How does "gentleman" come into play?


Are these male 'traditions' not applicable now?  If not, then why do men seem to be searching for 'traditional' women?

[IAmZon]

Protecting, considering, securing, providing, enabling (when noticed, and when not) are cool.

Grandstanding these characteristics is PW.  Or, doing them to manipulate, or win acceptance is PW
Being overly agreeable is PW
Being concerned with the woman's needs and preferences because you are not aware of yours as a man is PW
Allowing yourself to become a FRIKEN BUTLER is PW

Interestingly, these things can occur in very small increments over time.

[Cameraguy]

Wow, I think it's safe to say that a "little experience" can be a very dangerous thing.

Hasn't the notion of "traditional RW" become an agency parody and inside joke... like a decade ago?

Perhaps what's really required is some "traditional" anger management, emotional maturity and self-realization...
 

[Ranetka]

Protecting, considering, securing, providing, enabling (when noticed, and when not) are cool.

Grandstanding these characteristics is PW.  Or, doing them to manipulate, or win acceptance is PW
Being overly agreeable is PW
Being concerned with the woman's needs and preferences because you are not aware of yours as a man is PW
Allowing yourself to become a FRIKEN BUTLER is PW

Interestingly, these things can occur in very small increments over time.

Yeah, sounds BAD to be PW.


And what kind of quality is when a man is concerned what others would think if he decide to take a dance lesson?  Self-assurance? Independence? Self-confidence?

[IAmZon]

And what kind of quality is when a man is concerned what others would think if he decide to take a dance lesson?  Self-assurance? Independence? Self-confidence?

HAHAHA - I have learned the hard way.  You either take online reputation seriously, or you do not ... there is no middle ground.

[Daveman]

Wow, I think it's safe to say that a "little experience" can be a very dangerous thing.

Hasn't the notion of "traditional RW" become an agency parody and inside joke... like a decade ago?

I mentioning "seemed to be searching for"... I didn't imply they could necessarily be found.. 

Perhaps what's really required is some "traditional" anger management, emotional maturity and self-realization...

I have often had somewhat similar thoughts.  option A) is my biggie.  I like to traditionally shoot things..   

[Ranetka]

Hell, I took "dance classes" ... and THAT is enough for some people, in some situations, to draw an undesirable conclusion. (unserious / weak)

Mate, for the self-assured man you claim to be you concern too much about what other people think of you. Be a Man, it will help you to stop worry about others being PW too.

[Daveman]

Yeah, sounds BAD to be PW.


And what kind of quality is when a man is concerned what others would think if he decide to take a dance lesson?  Self-assurance? Independence? Self-confidence?

That would be something like "Shakaleggawhipped"   

[Muzh]

Mate, for the self-assured man you claim to be you concern too much about what other people think of you. Be a Man, it will help you to stop worry about others being PW too.

LMAO


I'm sorry, I was thinking of that as I was scrolling down reading the posts and then,,. BAM, right on the nose.


Ranetka, I'm LMAO because there will be some that will accuse me of kissing your ass because I happen to agree with your statement, but you know what? Let them. I don't care. You are right on the money.


It must be hard on you scaring these tough guys, isn't it? 

[LiveFromUkraine]

I get what you mean.  Here I'd like to pose some questions.. seriously...


How does the concept of chivalry relate?  Are men not traditionally considered to be the protectors of women (not that some need it)?  How does "gentleman" come into play?


Are these male 'traditions' not applicable now?  If not, then why do men seem to be searching for 'traditional' women?

Great question Dave and very hard to answer.  haha


I honestly don't think traditional roles are valid any longer.  I think, for most, it takes two income sources and a division of chores for household, children and so on.  That isn't a big deal to me and I am certain for most guys.

I still enjoy holding doors open for women, pulling the chair out, and helping when I can.


This is most definitely a personal issue and you can see it in a lot of the responses in this thread.


My opinion, if a woman wants to act like a woman and show class, I want to be a gentleman and act accordingly.  If a woman wants to act like a man, and allow guys to bail her out when she is called out then I don't want to act in a gentlemanly manner.  I just want to get away from her and any problems she is causing.


I have seen women called out for bad behavior and guys coming to their rescue.  That is what I don't understand.