From Heaven to Hell... with a broken heart.

[TheTraveler]

in wm/rw train wreck threads, why do i generally end up sympathizing with the rw?

[Patagonie]

Mikey, thank you to deliver us this special last mail from her.

I hope that you understand that this woman told you that your game is over with her now ? Houston do you receive our signal ?
Shadow is correct with his analysis, i do agree. With the lasts informations you gave us i revise my judgement : you have more than 90% of responsability. This is my post 28, for a part : 
 
 "I  Saying goodbye at the airport was great...    She went back home, I did too and at soon as I did, the problems started to occur. 
PROBLEMS NEVER STARTED, YOU CREATED THEM BUT FOCUSSING ON HER TOO MUCH.
She was back in town for 2 days and then put up new photo's on her dating profile, of her, on her trip to hong kong.  Mind you, the profile page was turned off, but, she would still log in every couple of days and would browse what else was out there.   This became the knife in my chest that eventually killed our relationship.   
SHE HAD NOT YET DECIDED THAT YOU ARE THE RIGHT MAN
     I would send her emails, trying to hint that I'd like to see her again, or that I miss her.
YOU PUSHED HER TOO HARD TO GET HER LOVE, UNFORTUNATELY THIS TYPE OF BEGGING HAD NEVER BRING LOVE.
 She would reply back with the weather report. 
SHE WANTED TO KEEP HER OPTIONS OPEN
The first week went by, I asked her if she liked me.  "No, it's still too early". 
YOU LOST MORE POINTS HERE
 2nd week, "No, Its' still too early".
YOU LOST ADDITIONNAL POINTS HERE
   Now, the 3rd week goes by, and she's still logging into her profile...
NORMAL YOU DIDN'T PROOF  THAT YOU WERE WORTHLY AND  YOU DO ALL TO LOOSE HER INTEREST.
  but this time, I see another page (it's kind of like facebook, but a Russian version).   She doesn't know I know about it.  Right before her trip to hong kong, she writes 'Vacation to Hong Kong'.  And, exactly 5 days after her return home, she writes, "Vacation to St. Peters-burg?". 
SHE TRAVELS, THIS IS GOOD FOR WOMEN. YOU PAY THEY TRAVEL? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT ? AND SHE CAN LET HER POSSIBILITIES OPEN? NEXT GIRL GO TO HER CITY.
 In fact, she is there right now, but she told me was going to Moscow for a potential job opportunity.
SHIT. AND IF SHE STAYED HIDDEN FROM HER CHILD DURING YOUR MEETING  IS NOT IMPOSSIBLE THAT SHE HAD ALSO A LOCAL BOYFRIEND IN HER CITY.
  Of course shes going to say that.
AND YOU PAID HER TICKET TO SEE THE OTHER MAN IN ST PETE ? PERFECT. WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO WAKE UP AND FOLLOW THE BASICS (GO TO HER CITY, AND YOU WILL AVOID WOMEN LITTLE GAMES) ???
 Especially when I pay for the plan ticket.

   I'm floored.  Crushed. Torn into a million peaces.  I called her and didn't mention what I had found, but I did say,
WHY YOU DIDN'T TELL HER ?
 "You need to tell me now... Yes, No or Maybe".
LOOSING ATTITUDE, YOU WERE NOT IN POSITION TO ASK SOMETHING AND ESPECIALLY ABOUT LOVE, THIS IS NOT WORKING LIKE THIS WITH WOMEN. SHE HOLD ALL CARDS N HANDS  AND DIDN'T WANT  TO  MAKE A CHOICE. YOU ONLY LOOSE MORE POINTS HERE AND "SUICIDE YOURSELF"; SHE WAS HAVING ENOUGH INTEREST IN YOU TO KEEP YOU AS CHALLENGER AND PERHAPS AS BACKUP IN THE FUTURE BUT YOU SCREW UP YOUR CHANCES TO BE A POTENTIAL BACKUP HERE.(She couldn't even eek out a maybe until I forced it out of her).  Anyway, we hung up on each other and a couple of other really bad things were said though instant message right after...   to which I hear from her "Finished".
SHE WAS ENOUGH HONEST TO DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE A CHOICE (IT WOULD HAD BEEN EASY FOR HER TO LIE)
I apologized the next day. 
YOU APOLOGIZED TO BE A WUS ?
Waiting a few days, apologized again
YOU WENT DEEPER IN YOU GRAVE
, telling her I'm making changes, wanting to repair this... to which she replied.   "It was enough for.
 We can be friends Rbut nothing else".
YOU GOT HERE YOU SPECIAL AWARD : WHICH IS DESSERVED TO ANY MEN WHEN AFTER A PROMISING RELATIONSHIP THEY HAVE DO ALL THEY CAN TO KILL LOVE BY THEIR WUSSY ATTITUDE.

My gut feeling was that she was holding out for something better,
YES WOMEN HAVE GENERALLY MANY OPTIONS AND THEY HOLD THEM TILL THEY GOT A WINNER
 or still had to meet at least one more guy.    The thing I got out of it, is that Russian women can be very cold when it comes to expressing feeling. 
FALSE
 It was very difficult for me to see her laughing and playing with her child... and all around us, other couples were holding hands,
I UNDEERSTAND YOUR PAIN
 but it was like I was the limo driver.  I was only talked too or even acknowledged when absolute needed when we were out on the town.  It was like this in the end anyway.
IT IS HERE THAT YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THIS RELATIONSHIP WERE NOT FOR YOU. HAD YOU USUALLY THIS TYPE OF RELATIONSHIP WITH THIS HIGH LEVEL OF FEELING AND THIS FEELING OF  LACK ING OF AFFECTION  FELLOW ? IF THIS IS REMINDING YOU PAST STORIES IT IS TIME TO MEET A PROFESSIONAL PERHAPS.
Maybe bringing the child was what killed it. 
NO"
 
 I just add that for her you have been drunk, at least one time during the travel, if i have well understood her mail. You are or not an alcooholic, this is not our problem. But if you are, chase locally, because in FSU women have bunchs of such guys, and it is one of the reason they want to date abroad. The last thing they want is to get married with an alcooholic (cheater, violent...). If you occasionnaly drink, you have multiplied mistakes, with an FSU you will be evaluated on what is your behavior in social. If you drink and be drunk in the six firsts days you spend with her : your mark get a torpedo. "
 I repeat you this :
  IT IS HERE THAT YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT THIS RELATIONSHIP WERE NOT FOR YOU. HAD YOU USUALLY THIS TYPE OF RELATIONSHIP WITH THIS HIGH LEVEL OF FEELING AND THIS FEELING OF  INTENSE LACKING OF AFFECTION  FELLOW ? IF THIS IS REMINDING YOU PAST STORIES IT IS TIME TO MEET A PROFESSIONAL PERHAPS.

[GQBlues]

...Lets have fun analyzing this one.

also, the reason she says, "You are looking for me everywhere", is because, you can pay 1 dollar to a site (topface.com) and it will allow you to see who has been looking at your page. This is exactly what she did... she paid, and saw that I was looking at her page all week.   This is.... this is after I found that she had voted on over 1000 guys....   (on topface, you get a 'badge', so, she got that badge, just under 1 week).

((((of course, I'm moving on, like tonight, I'm stealing another girl from a guy....so let's just pull this text appart, and assume that I'm Okay))))).

Unbelievable.

The apparent reason she didn't want to continue with you was likely because raising one child is enough. She wasn't looking to adopt another one in her quest to seek marriage.

[CDW]

UPDATE:
 But in future - I hope I will meet the right one for me, I hope he will be Russian, because it's impossible for me to understand another culture, it's just not normal for me. If I would be a lier, I would be continue with you, but I am not, and you know that. I wish you the best , live your life. It just did not work.

Still she was asking him for $1,700 !!!  I'm afraid to say that she is a scammer, but you, Mikey, to her, you are a stalker!

Like everyone here says, you need to move on, and you need to forget about her.

There are millions of fishes in the sea!  Not only one shark will eat all these fishes!!

You need to choose your fish more carefully next time.

[mendeleyev]

Mikey, lets not analyze the part you highlighted.

Sorry, that is immaterial.


What we should analyze is this, the part you don't want to face:

I hope I will meet the right one for me, I hope he will be Russian, because it's impossible for me to understand another culture, it's just not normal for me. If I would be a lier, I would be continue with you, but I am not, and you know that. I wish you the best , live your life. It just did not work.

She could live with you and hate herself, sneak around on affairs and look for a better option while lying to you, but that isn't her character. Being a Mom, she can't roll the dice on a gamble. Either it will work or she can't risk the trauma of an international move on simply hoping it would work.

You was very kind to me, but I realized in Irkutsk, that you are not for me, you scared me and I cannot change it, Mike. It is my life, I don't want to be waiting for something wrong from you all the time, I want be safe, calm and sure, that there is right man near me.

Did something happen in Irkutsk?

Something scared her to the point that she has given it quite a bit of thought.

[Doll]

How did you scare her, Mikey?
Guys, does she write he pushed her? Or pushed what?
(See, guys? I told you long ago that there was something he did wrong and she didn't like it!)
I've never heard RW say they are "scared" of American "culture". It is not scary)))) and it is impossible tofear it in HK on the first date.
Mikey is the one who scared her/
How?
CWD, there is a Russian saying- if you want to get rid of a person, ask him (or her) to borrow you money.

[Vasilisa]

How did you scare her, Mikey?
Guys, does she write he pushed her? Or pushed what?
(See, guys? I told you long ago that there was something he did wrong and she didn't like it!)
I've never heard RW say they are "scared" of American "culture". It is not scary)))) and it is impossible tofear it in HK on the first date.
Mikey is the one who scared her/
How?
CWD, there is a Russian saying- if you want to get rid of a person, ask him (or her) to borrow you money.

I don't know about the girl but he is scaring me, I have just had an experience with a stalker, it was terrible

[mikeyUSA]

Mikey, lets not analyze the part you highlighted.

Sorry, that is immaterial.


What we should analyze is this, the part you don't want to face:She could live with you and hate herself, sneak around on affairs and look for a better option while lying to you, but that isn't her character. Being a Mom, she can't roll the dice on a gamble. Either it will work or she can't risk the trauma of an international move on simply hoping it would work.
Did something happen in Irkutsk?

Something scared her to the point that she has given it quite a bit of thought.

In Irkutsk, that's when I called her and yelled at her and said, "YOU NEED TO TELL ME YES/NO/MAYBE". 

[mikeyUSA]

How did you scare her, Mikey?
Guys, does she write he pushed her? Or pushed what?
(See, guys? I told you long ago that there was something he did wrong and she didn't like it!)
I've never heard RW say they are "scared" of American "culture". It is not scary)))) and it is impossible tofear it in HK on the first date.
Mikey is the one who scared her/
How?
CWD, there is a Russian saying- if you want to get rid of a person, ask him (or her) to borrow you money.

It was 3 weeks since our vacation, and I was upset that she was logging into her profile, and updated her photos, so I called her and said, "YOU NEED TO TELL ME NOW, YES.NO.MAYBE"....

[CDW]

It was 3 weeks since our vacation, and I was upset that she was logging into her profile, and updated her photos, so I called her and said, "YOU NEED TO TELL ME NOW, YES.NO.MAYBE"....

YOU NEED A NEW FISH

[mikeyUSA]

Well,   I'm not sure what to say here.    I left her completely alone for a week.  But, i did look at her profile.  She paid a dollar to see "who" was looking at her, and she saw that I had been looking at her.     She see's this and tells me, "You have been looking for me everywhere".     So sure, I look at her... It's not like I sent her 5 emails a day. 

She was scared of me, because during her trip, I called her and didn't necessarily yell at her, but I got angry with her and said that she needs to tell me where I stand.  Domestic abuse?  No, I have never in my life laid a hand on a women.  In fact, I am actually the docile one in the relationship. 

I am moving on.  Can people stop asking me to 'move on'?    I am just trying to understand and get "closure" to something. 

I wanted to try to understand one part of her message to me:   She tells me, "I am moving from Kamchatka, so much to think about".    But, she is still on her "trip".   What 'opportunity' did she magically find, that is allowing her to suddenly move from her town?    I know, it doesn't matter, michael needs to move on.  But, I'm still thinking about it. 

[Slumba]

I wanted to try to understand one part of her message to me:   She tells me, "I am moving from Kamchatka, so much to think about".    But, she is still on her "trip".   What 'opportunity' did she magically find, that is allowing her to suddenly move from her town?    I know, it doesn't matter, michael needs to move on.  But, I'm still thinking about it.

She found someone else; that or she found a job and is moving.  But she could be lying, trying to get you to leave her alone.

I think yelling in FSU culture must mean something more serious, than in American culture. 

Perhaps it is seen as a short step from yelling --> violence. 

I never saw it that way, more as a way to blow off steam... however I recall a scene from "Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears" where the woman yells at the man, and he shuts her down ASAP, telling her if she yells at him again, he will leave and not come back.

[LAman]

Hey Mikey...having some trouble letting go of a '12' , huh?  Maybe just out of your league? let's just say someone like her would not give you time of day at home.....
BTW..abuse does not need to be physical....it can be mental also!!!

[Daveman]

...

Perhaps it is seen as a short step from yelling --> violence. 
...

Not from what I've seen... hell, they even seem to yell in normal conversation.  I think it's just one of those double standards that exist everywhere in the world.  The woman can yell, pitch a fit, make an ass of herself, have a massive high volume drama attack, and it is just considered normal because "she's a woman".  But if a man raises his voice then she pulls the "I'm afraid of him" our of her popka. 


I did not read into the letter that she is physically afraid of him, but more afraid of the situation because his "feelings" were far more than hers. She felt pressure because he was pushing her for an answer, i.e., pushing for the relationship to go to the next level.


I absolutely don't see anything "stalking" about checking the profiles.  I see it as just not quite ready to make the clean break because of lingering questions.  Now that she sent the "final letter",  he has no questions left. 


This is his outlet. Many come here to vent about breakups, relationship problems, etc..  I get the impression that venting is pretty much all this is and the feedback is assisting with the closure.  Nothing more nor less..


She may have gotten the "job opportunity" in Moscow.  There may or may not be a man involved.  From what I gather, that is Mikey's imagination taking that path which may be correct or not.


As far as I am concerned, Mikey is just a guy who let the dream take over, made a bit of a fool of himself, and is now trying to justify things in his mind so he doesn't feel like such a BIG fool.  Nothing psychotic there in the least.

[Ranetka]

Not from what I've seen... hell, they even seem to yell in normal conversation.  I think it's just one of those double standards that exist everywhere in the world.  The woman can yell, pitch a fit, make an ass of herself, have a massive high volume drama attack, and it is just considered normal because "she's a woman".  But if a man raises his voice then she pulls the "I'm afraid of him" our of her popka. 


I

Yeah. She also mentions getting drunk and pushing. Do you think it's a part of double standards also?


Or may be you think she has completely made this part up having foreseen Mickey posting it on a forum for discussion?

[mikeyUSA]

Not from what I've seen... hell, they even seem to yell in normal conversation.  I think it's just one of those double standards that exist everywhere in the world.  The woman can yell, pitch a fit, make an ass of herself, have a massive high volume drama attack, and it is just considered normal because "she's a woman".  But if a man raises his voice then she pulls the "I'm afraid of him" our of her popka. 


I did not read into the letter that she is physically afraid of him, but more afraid of the situation because his "feelings" were far more than hers. She felt pressure because he was pushing her for an answer, i.e., pushing for the relationship to go to the next level.


I absolutely don't see anything "stalking" about checking the profiles.  I see it as just not quite ready to make the clean break because of lingering questions.  Now that she sent the "final letter",  he has no questions left. 


This is his outlet. Many come here to vent about breakups, relationship problems, etc..  I get the impression that venting is pretty much all this is and the feedback is assisting with the closure.  Nothing more nor less..


She may have gotten the "job opportunity" in Moscow.  There may or may not be a man involved.  From what I gather, that is Mikey's imagination taking that path which may be correct or not.


As far as I am concerned, Mikey is just a guy who let the dream take over, made a bit of a fool of himself, and is now trying to justify things in his mind so he doesn't feel like such a BIG fool.  Nothing psychotic there in the least.

Thank you.  This is true.  I am just trying to get closure.  Thanks for understanding.

In reviewing,  I think that since I left her completely alone for a week, that maybe she was still having some small feelings (reviewing over 1000 men on topface)...   and that after a week, wondered why I had not 'Bothered her' for a whole week,  and paid a dollar, and saw that I was 'still looking for her', and felt that "Ah, he is still there, and it makes me feel good that I am not 'thrown away' ".     Or as she would put it, "It makes me feel free that I know I will not be with you". 

Again, just seeking closure...   I imagine that this whole thread will end up on some talk show someday, as an example of what "not to do".  I hope not.

[Daveman]

Yeah. She also mentions getting drunk and pushing. Do you think it's a part of double standards also?


Or may be you think she has completely made this part up having foreseen Mickey posting it on a forum for discussion?

Well, let's ask  him...


Mikey, did you get drunk and physically push her?


Or is she referring to you "pushing" her to take the relationship to the next level?


Which usage of the word is correct?


IMO, all evidence he has posted points to the latter use of the word. He was very pushy about the relationship.

[Ranetka]

I am moving on.  Can people stop asking me to 'move on'?    I am just trying to understand and get "closure" to something. 

Michael,


I believe everyone deserves love and happiness as dignified human beings we all are.


However I am sorry to say that reading all of your posts I was cringing. A number of little things now and there that a man would probably would not notice but a womans alarm just goes off immediately. It is not just some kind of wacky female psyche; it is something most off women develop starting at puberty as creeps/men acting creepy are sadly among us.
Just let this woman be, will you. You scared her and you scared me actually too.
I do not have much advice for you sorry. Perhaps next time try to see someone not only as insanely beautiful but what they are as a person? You might find something interesting about them, about "weather talk" - this is their daily life after all. You might not try sneakily get a feel of their back (you know, no-one allowed to rub my back apart from my lover or close female friend),  at the time when you are afraid to make a move. (YOu know how infuriating is it when men are "touching friendly" in inappropriate places? not when they are lovers of course but when they are affraid to make a move...oh boy how how how creepy)

[Ranetka]

in wm/rw train wreck threads, why do i generally end up sympathizing with the rw?

You could ask ML, he normally has a term for that lol.

[Ranetka]

IMO, all evidence he has posted points to the latter use of the word. He was very pushy about the relationship.

That he was of course.


She mentions being scared. Obviously she was not scared to start with as she took a child with her. But really honestly just reading this thread Michael sounds obsessed, I would not like to spend two weeks with a man like that.


And it's full of little bits...."hinted he was interested"..and asked how she feels. Why not just say "I like you?" Normally men do just that, just like that. Came to him with a bottle of wine and he would not make a move....Interrogating a woman when she has no-where to go about lack of PDA...Yelling at her when her 8 yo is in the next room? 35 years old, good job, handsome and no girlfriend at home. Of course not, no brainer why.

[Daveman]

Michael,


I believe everyone deserves love and happiness as dignified human beings we all are.


However I am sorry to say that reading all of your posts I was cringing. A number of little things now and there that a man would probably would not notice but a womans alarm just goes off immediately. It is not just some kind of wacky female psyche; it is something most off women develop starting at puberty as creeps/men acting creepy are sadly among us.

I agree, his behavior could easily be seen as "creepy". And trust me, men notice this behavior in women immediately as well.  Yeah there are some truly weird people in the world but for the most part  - any behavior or emotional expression which it not reciprocated feels "creepy".  If the woman felt mutual attraction and emotion, I doubt any of this would be considered creepy. It is only the lack of reciprocation which makes it so. 


I can't count the number of 'creepy' women who were trying to push me into a serious relationship.  None of their behavior of "calling me often", "being affectionate", etc would have been creepy in the least if I had felt the same way. It really is that simple most of the time.   Doesn't mean these women were bad, just that they liked me, they liked me a lot, didn't want to give up so easily even when it should have been quite clear that my feelings were not on the same wavelength.


Creepiness is an equal opportunity affliction.. 

[Shadow]

Thank you.  This is true.  I am just trying to get closure.  Thanks for understanding.

In reviewing,  I think that since I left her completely alone for a week, that maybe she was still having some small feelings (reviewing over 1000 men on topface)...   and that after a week, wondered why I had not 'Bothered her' for a whole week,  and paid a dollar, and saw that I was 'still looking for her', and felt that "Ah, he is still there, and it makes me feel good that I am not 'thrown away' ".     Or as she would put it, "It makes me feel free that I know I will not be with you". 

Again, just seeking closure...   I imagine that this whole thread will end up on some talk show someday, as an example of what "not to do".  I hope not.

I am sure that the only feeling she has when she will never hear from you again is the feeling of hapiness she escaped.

Now throw out the drinking habit and go to find some woman that will scare you.

[Ranetka]

I agree, his behavior could easily be seen as "creepy". And trust me, men notice this behavior in women immediately as well.  Yeah there are some truly weird people in the world but for the most part  - any behavior or emotional expression which it not reciprocated feels "creepy".  If the woman felt mutual attraction and emotion, I doubt any of this would be considered creepy. It is only the lack of reciprocation which makes it so. 


I can't count the number of 'creepy' women who were trying to push me into a serious relationship.  None of their behavior of "calling me often", "being affectionate", etc would have been creepy in the least if I had felt the same way. It really is that simple most of the time.   Doesn't mean these women were bad, just that they liked me, they liked me a lot, didn't want to give up so easily even when it should have been quite clear that my feelings were not on the same wavelength.


Creepiness is an equal opportunity affliction.. 

Ha-ha yes this is very true.


I dance blues from open to close and to intimate embrace (full body contact) . We recently discussed it about creeps who wants to dance too close. And came to the conclusion that "creeps" are the people who "we" do not want too close. If we want them close then they aren't creeps :-)

[mikeyUSA]

Michael,


I believe everyone deserves love and happiness as dignified human beings we all are.


However I am sorry to say that reading all of your posts I was cringing. A number of little things now and there that a man would probably would not notice but a womans alarm just goes off immediately. It is not just some kind of wacky female psyche; it is something most off women develop starting at puberty as creeps/men acting creepy are sadly among us.
Just let this woman be, will you. You scared her and you scared me actually too.
I do not have much advice for you sorry. Perhaps next time try to see someone not only as insanely beautiful but what they are as a person? You might find something interesting about them, about "weather talk" - this is their daily life after all. You might not try sneakily get a feel of their back (you know, no-one allowed to rub my back apart from my lover or close female friend),  at the time when you are afraid to make a move. (YOu know how infuriating is it when men are "touching friendly" in inappropriate places? not when they are lovers of course but when they are affraid to make a move...oh boy how how how creepy)

Yeah, maybe some things I say maybe creepy to you guys on this forum, but I was not 'creepy to her.  Believe me, if I was "creepy" to her, she would have dumped me a long long time ago.  But again, when I say that I was 'pushy' to her,  what that means is,  She knows that I like her, and when I got back, I would email her about every 1 or 2 days with, "Hi, I hope you a fine and your cold is better".    No, I did not say "please please please be with me".   It was instead very subtle emails.   But, about once a week, I would say my code words "I do not miss you", to which one time she actually said, "Michael, I told you not to say such words... but of course, I think maybe I start to miss you too". 

Only after 3rd week, did I call her and not really yell at her, but tell her, "it is my culture, you will understand, I need to know right now yes.no.maybe.  NO, You will tell me now".     And, of course, that scared her because I was trying to force  her.

   And by being "pushy", all she means by that, is that I was trying to get her to say that she misses me too. 

[Daveman]

Ha-ha yes this is very true.


I dance blues from open to close and to intimate embrace (full body contact) . We recently discussed it about creeps who wants to dance too close. And came to the conclusion that "creeps" are the people who "we" do not want too close. If we want them close then they aren't creeps :-)

LOL!!! yes indeed!