First Kiss

[Shadow]

5.  When you get to Kiev, I would recommend that you contact Val at +38 067 2332353 or his associate Andrei at +38 067 7825228.  Val is in the business of assisting English speaking visitors to Ukraine.  He primarly rents apartments in Kiev and I have rented several from him.  He also serves as a guide to various sites and handles just about any requirement that his clients have come up.  He is a straight talking guy and very funny to talk to.  He will also keep you from getting scammed.  His aparments are a lttle more expensive, but he has to make a living and having somone that is looking out for your interests and providing assitance when needed is well worth the small difference in cost.

Never trust someone who tells they keep you from being scammed. Especially if they even admit their apartments are expensive because 'they need to make a living'.

[calmissile]

Never trust someone who tells they keep you from being scammed. Especially if they even admit their apartments are expensive because 'they need to make a living'.

I did not say he told me that he would keep me from getting scammed.  It was my opinion based upon the advice he gave me on several occasions.  You are jumping to conclusions.

You think he should rent the apartments at his cost and not make a profit?  It makes no sense.  He does not own them, he rents them out for the landlords.  You work for free?

[JohnDearGreen]

I am thinking the lesson is to stay home. I am way to much of a dreamer for this journey. I did have fun the time I was with them. It has been a nice vacation.

van - if you had fun, then it was not a waste.  You don't want to get married on trip 1, just want to make a connection.  Don't burn any bridges with her yet.  Keep emailing her until you get a valid explanation, then make your decision.   But most guys don't have the time and money to invest 2 trips in a situation they have doubts about.  So she could also be plan B (or C or D ....) for your next trip.

[Shadow]

I did not say he told me that he would keep me from getting scammed.  It was my opinion based upon the advice he gave me on several occasions.  You are jumping to conclusions.

You think he should rent the apartments at his cost and not make a profit?  It makes no sense.  He does not own them, he rents them out for the landlords.  You work for free?

A 2-room apartment Western style would bring about USD 900 rent in Kiev.
That means that at $75 a night he needs 7 nights per month booked to make a profit.

Considering a 75% rate in summer and 25% rate in winter he makes about $3000 per apartment per year. Yeah I feel sorry for him.

[IAmZon]

Good luck in Kiev.  I just left and the weather sucks!  In spite of that, you still have an opportunity to salvage some of your vacation.  Make your remaining time worth the trip.

Salvage it by going out and seeing the sights, or having a little FUN.  Don't try to force it.   The more I see, the more I am of the opinion that if an AM finds a RW without knowing language, or spending some time in the culture / country - NOWADAYS - it is simply a matter of luck.  And, I might add that luck is not on a man's side these days, all things being equal.

It's a little trickier than that.

[Manny]

Some observations and opinions...

1.  You had a huge disadvantage by choosing someone that knows no English.  There are tens of thousands of UA women that are looking for husbands that already know enough English to get by without a terp tagging along for every meeting.  Why not start out with this advantage?  A portable electronic translator is adaquate to get you by on day to day conversation and coordinating activities.
2.  For communications that are important to not be understood, I would recommend that you find a local interpreter or person that speaks English and call them on the phone to clarify anything that can't be resolved with the electronic translator.  In my case it was a friend of a friend that speaks very good English and I paid her a very nominal fee for being available by phone and assisting when necessary.  This person/translator can also be very important if you get yourself in any jams and you can't find a local person that speaks English.  I am not fond of the idea of using a friend of the person you are dating for a translator.  I would rather know that the translator is representing my interests and does not have any separate agenda.
3. Since you are going back to Keiv and still have time before you go home, you might have time to meet some other women and see how it goes.  Kiev is full of single women that speak enough English to get by without a translator. Perhaps you can salvage some of your trip and meet someone new.
4.  I would not write off the gal you dated yet.  If she is into you it is possible that she will pursue you after you have left.  You got off to a very bad start with this gal, because of the language barrier.  She might feel that she is in the same boat as you are as far as not being able to communicate her feelings, etc.  The fact that she was warming up to you near the end with the handholding was encouraging.
5.  When you get to Kiev, I would recommend that you contact Val at +38 067 2332353 or his associate Andrei at +38 067 7825228.  Val is in the business of assisting English speaking visitors to Ukraine.  He primarly rents apartments in Kiev and I have rented several from him.  He also serves as a guide to various sites and handles just about any requirement that his clients have come up.  He is a straight talking guy and very funny to talk to.  He will also keep you from getting scammed.  His aparments are a lttle more expensive, but he has to make a living and having somone that is looking out for your interests and providing assitance when needed is well worth the small difference in cost.  I rented his apartments in Kiev from $50 to $75 per night depending on day of week and availability.  He also puts you near Independence Square and shows you where all the necessities are such as supermarkets, night clubs, etc.  Many Americans have used his services and was highly recommended to me.  I share that opinion now that I have also used his services.
6. When you get to Kiev, I would recommend that you set up an account on Ukrainedate.com  and Luckylovers.net.  You can also set up an account on Badoo.  The first two are pay per month sites with no fees for message exchanges. Also, no restrictions on sharing contact information.  The Badoo site is unique in a lot of ways.  If you use Badoo, set your location as Kiev. The women often use the "who is nearby" to review profiles.  If they know you are already there, you will get immediate responses.
7.  Depending what kind of sites you are interested in seeing, you might want to read my trip report and see if any that I visited interest you.  As long are you are already there, you might as well see some of the history and other attractions.
8. Some of the most important advice you received on your thread dealt with who is in control.  I have to agree with them.  Don't let the women jerk you around to their convenience and time table.  You will waste a lot of time.  It is your valuable time, and if a gal is not available when you are, then move on to one that is. There are so many women available that it is silly to get bogged down and let time pass by.
9.  As far as all the opinions about cultural norms, dating protocol, personalities, etc. I would would take them all with a grain of salt. They are probably all true and the stereotypes don't seem to fit all UA women.  My most recent trip demonstrated to me that there are as many different personalities, moral values, and behavior patterns as is the case of women anywhere.  The key is to find someone that you are compatible with.  Again, the language barrier makes that much more difficult and time consuming than if you are able to communicate freely.

Good luck in Kiev.  I just left and the weather sucks!  In spite of that, you still have an opportunity to salvage some of your vacation.  Make your remaining time worth the trip.

That is mostly pretty good advice Van.

[calmissile]

A 2-room apartment Western style would bring about USD 900 rent in Kiev.
That means that at $75 a night he needs 7 nights per month booked to make a profit.

Considering a 75% rate in summer and 25% rate in winter he makes about $3000 per apartment per year. Yeah I feel sorry for him.

If it were not for your inference that Val is taking advantage of his customers, I would not bother responding further to your post.  It appears that you have an aversion to people in business or anyone making money.  Perhaps the Netherlands has a different attitude than we do in the West.

So let me try this one last time to respond to your inference.  Val does NOT own the apartments. He like many others are rental agents that either get a discount on the apartment from the owners or he tacks on a small fee for his service as an agency!!!  Based on my research on line as well as my G/F searching locally in Kiev, he might be making about $15 per day per apartment.  Considering the services he provides and the convenience factor, I find it well worth his small fee.

We must have different calculators in the US and the Netherlands.  Using your own figures, I have no idea how you arrived at taking 7 nights of occupancy to make a profit.  Even if you assume that the agency rents the apartment by the month for $900 and rents it out daily for $75, it would take 12 nights rather than 7 to break even.  The agencies do not book the apartments by the month and eat the costs when they are vacant (there may be some exceptions in the summer months).

If your scenario was meant to illustrate the profits from the OWNERS of the apartments it might make more sense.  Even at that, do you feel that a Gross return of $3000 per year on a $75 - $150,00 apartment in Kiev is usury?  Having looked into the costs of apartments in Kiev, it is clear to me that the apartment and building owners are the big money makers.  It is not the rental agencies.

In fact, if you consider the 15 -20% interest rate on credit in Ukraine, it does not seem practical to be able to finance an apartment and make much money on renting it.  For those that bought their properties outright 15 -20 years ago,  they are making a killing.  We probably can agree on that.

BTW, Val's many satisfied customers are probably adequate to keep him alive.  I have yet to hear from any of them that they thought he was ripping them off.  He came highly recommended by one of them on this forum and I concur with their assessment of his prices and services.

[JayH]

$50- $75 per night for short term stay in Kiev is not expensive-- especially for good location.
Too many on forum are too quick to find fault with any and everything-- and what is worse for me is that they think that nit-picking every post and thread is required. Repeated bickering posts makes thread hard work to read.

[SANDRO43]

Perhaps the Netherlands has a different attitude than we do in the West.

Meaning that the Netherlands have seceded the UE and moved east of the Urals ?

[calmissile]

Good one Sandro, I probably should have used the US rather than the West.  LOL

[I/O]

Meaning that the Netherlands have seceded the UE and moved east of the Urals ?

That would make Shadow Asian would it not?

[GoodOlBoy]

That would make Shadow Asian would it not?

GOB
 

[SANDRO43]

That would make Shadow Asian would it not?

A Shadowy Asian would look more like :

[Shadow]

If it were not for your inference that Val is taking advantage of his customers, I would not bother responding further to your post.  It appears that you have an aversion to people in business or anyone making money.  Perhaps the Netherlands has a different attitude than we do in the West.

I have no problem with him or anyone else making money. Especially of those gullible enough not to understand the difference between altruistic services and smart marketing.

It is very easy to navigate through Kiev without any interpreter or guide. Been there, done that.

How you can think owners of an apartment would pay rent is beyond me.

As for business model in tenring out apartments, there are two. First one is the agency rents the apartment all year, so has fixed cost to recover. This one would higer profit, providing he has a stable client base.
Second way is to have the owners take the risk of vacancy, and just earn for every night the apartment is rented. A little less profit, but zero risk.

Either way he will make $3000 per apartment, if he has 10 on offer he makes $30k a year from that. Not getting him rich, ut not too shabby.
If he admits he makes more from added services, you can expect him to be making close to $100k. After roof still about $80k.

I have no problem with him making this money, but am sure that if he made $200 a month he would not be in this business 'helping' people.

[Turboguy]

I love to do a Social at this point but I don't know how to find one of if you can even just do a social without doing a tour.


Again thanks for the advice.

If you can find one going on while you are there you can generally attend a social without doing a tour.  Check the web sites for the agencies that do socials but they are the worst and least honest agencies generally.   There are some agencies in Kiev that are sort of OK, why not visit them, look through the catalog and pick out some ladies to meet or go on Free Personals or join Elena's models and email some of the women in Kiev that you are there and would like to meet them.  You are wasting your money to chase the one you have been chasing any longer.  I hate to say it but it is obvious that she is not into you.

[2tallbill]

I know this was covered in another thread kind of but I just wanted an some input for my case. I have emailed my Lady everyday for 2 months. Now I have come to visit her. We have had five dates. Every time I go to kiss her she turns her cheek to me. I asked my sister the other day about it and she told me it was odd and I should ask about it. She said she likes dating me but wants to wait. Does this seem odd to anyone elses? I have read before if your gut tells you it is wrong you should go with it. I also know there are cultural differences.


Thanks
Van

Dump her and move on. She is not romantically interested in you. If an FSUW is romantically interested
in you, you will know. Your best use of time, money, resources and emotional expenditure is to find a girl
who IS romantically interested.

I know this is difficult to believe, but there have been girls who were not romantically interested in my
tall, handsome and charming self. This can be disappointing, but give yourself a pep talk, then go out
and find another girl. Luckily there are literally billions of them scattered all around the Earth. Some
of them will want to be romantically pursued by you.   

Udachi!

Bill

[ML]

Actually is was OK with me if gal showed no interest in kissing on first date.

At end of second date, she had better accept a kiss on the cheek, or no 3rd date.

At end of third date, she had better be into full mouth kissing, or no further date.

- - - - - - -

In contrast 10-15% of FSU gals were into sex on first date.
20-30% into sex on second date.
60% or so into sex on third date.

- - - - - -

I never really pushed anything.

- - - - - -

I remember there were 5 or so quite nice gals (out of 150 or so) whom I had no interest in kissing or continuing with for one reason or another.
At end of first date, they kissed me on cheek.
I felt bad for them that they put themself out there like that since I had no interest in continuing.
Probably would make very nice wives for some guys.
Of course guys are frequently on the other side of this equation, so no big traumatizing rejection for them as they are more used to it.

[2tallbill]

Actually is was OK with me if gal showed no interest in kissing on first date.

The OP Van had written her daily for 2 months, then went to visit only her.
Then had 5 dates and she was still offering him her cheek. Now he is asking
the forum if there are cultural problems. The man is a beginning dater and
is deluding himself, hoping against hope that she will realize that she is
interested in him and finally realizes it.

That will never happen.

I only resurrected this thread so that newbies would know what to do if something
similar happened to them. If a woman isn't interested in you, then you need to
find a woman who is.

If you are going to visit one then you need to have a back up plan. I don't think that
men this naive and inexperienced should visit many. They don't have the social skills
to sort excellent women from so-so women.

I can expand on everything if anyone asks, but if that guy visited many, he would marry
the first woman that dropped her knickers. He wouldn't know anything about her or her
character. He is socially awkward and this is not a pursuit for entry level daters. This is
ninja level.

[krimster2]

the biggest problem westerners have when dating Russian women, is they think like Westerners...
when in Rome, it's best to follow Roman customs, and not your quaint barbarian ones
barbarians seem to have a learning impediment or somethin'
caused by being an incel

I NEVER met a Russian Incel
Russian village boys terrorize all the village girls, so the girls pick a strong one to protect them
so if you're a dewd in a Russian village, you're either a protector or a sex offender
either way, you have sex on a pretty regular basis
Russians laugh at western incels

[Trenchcoat]

the biggest problem westerners have when dating Russian women, is they think like Westerners...
when in Rome, it's best to follow Roman customs, and not your quaint barbarian ones
barbarians seem to have a learning impediment or somethin'
caused by being an incel

I NEVER met a Russian Incel
Russian village boys terrorize all the village girls, so the girls pick a strong one to protect them
so if you're a dewd in a Russian village, you're either a protector or a sex offender
either way, you have sex on a pretty regular basis
Russians laugh at western incels

I get it, we're too reserved, inhibited if you like. We've been socialised to be cautious as men, to not cross certain boundaries, upset, etc. They don't have that in the FSU. In the UK Muslims from abroad (and possibly homd grown ones) have been getting in trouble for touching up English girls,there has been much trouble. Girls getting fondled down Bournemouth beach, etc. Society in the West has gotten more upright in the West over the last two decades more than ever I would say. It's like thd comment the guy made to the women about licking it out, in most Western Companies you would get fired, so many men have gotten into trouble for any little indiscretion in what they say at work in the West in recent years. It's all gonf very Mary Whitehouse really. It's bizarre the girls dress sexy in the West but often have very feminist values, very upright. Like at Bournemouth beach they will wear things/G-string bikini bottoms that show all of their bum. Some foreign dude, Muslim dude think they are dressing provocatively and are massively up for it fondly them, then get accused of sexual assault. The girls get upset as for some bizarre reason they think it's ok to dress like that and not have that happen. Our society really is very oddball but people think it's the way to be here, I like many guys just prefer to avoid jail and can't be had with it, abroad we assume wrongly that it is the same, in truth we just don't know how it is exactly and are cautious. Of course we wouldn't go fondle at random that may not go so well but we can be too reserved to chasing women we like as a result.

I ding know I guess it's the socialisation we have had here not to pursue too heavily. I think probably more pronounced in the younger generations. It's like self denying what you want, being inhibited and also feeling like it's not going to go well if you chase a girl heavily,which it probably isn't. The girls here have been socialised too to strange values so it works both ways. Unless she finds you are so great then it can be really difficult to get a look in. It can be like walking on egg shells to try to gain her interest, one wrong move and it not go so well, too over eager and you're a creep, or it scared her off, etc.

When I visit the FSU it feels like I need to take a few days to detox from the West. I usually feel better after a few days and more at ease, but years & decades of western society don't go in a few days. I still don't know fully the exact score in the FSU on what might land me in the shit with women or the authorities so I go cautious. I can no doubt pester a woman I like in the FSU that I wouldn't do in the West but often that western socialisation kicks in. I have no doubt been too hesitant out there and not gone forth on some occasions and pestered away at a woman and enjoyed it. I think that is something that has been lost in the West, men hardly ever pester women anymore due to all the female complaints but at the same time it was those ways that showed a woman how much a guy liked her and in truth many ladies probably liked the attention possibly with guys they didn't like so much even.

Correct me if you think I have gotten anything wrong here, it's just how I see it.

[2tallbill]

I NEVER met a Russian Incel

Because you didn't meet them doesn't mean they don't exist. American incels can't
compete with local Russian men, they can't compete with Western men either that's
where the involuntary part comes from. Russia has some of everything, good, bad
and indifferent.

Now feel free to blow out 1800 words of random garbage that is ping pongs around
in your head whenever someone disagrees with you.