Charmingdate.com-Fraud Alert!

[Strider]

In October, I happened to find this pay per letter site.  I didn't pay for anything, but I did send a few free "cupid notes" which get a quick response to encourage the purchase of a paid letter.  I suspected a come-on.

One girl I found particularly attractive I recently noticed having a profile on mamba.ru.  The difference between the two profiles is striking.  Some of the photos are the same, (and look to be professionally done,) but her CD profile lists her age off by a year, her height an inch more, and lists her looking for men up to age 54.  On mamba her upper limit is only 40 and she has far less sweetness and much more attitude.  Her city changes from Dnepropetrovsk on mamba to Kiev on CD.  Of course, the same girl that wrote from CD that she wanted to know me much better and how attracted she was to me has not answered a single message on mamba nor viewed my profile. 

Do girls like this qualify for a black list, or maybe even a gray list?

It appears that it is easier to scam many men for small fees, than one man for a large fee.  It is like the difference between a meat and a diary farm.  The first kills the cows, and the second just keeps milking them everyday.

[I/O]

Where's the scam?

[Strider]

I suspect the scam is that CD is hiring models to feign interest in dating older men in order to entice the men to buy letters, etc., with the girls getting some kind of commission.

I am not a prosecutor in Ukraine, and I do not have the power to investigate the matter further.  It does smell very bad to me.  So I have posted a warning.

A word to the wise is sufficient...

[Faux Pas]

I suspect the scam is that CD is hiring models to feign interest in dating older men in order to entice the men to buy letters, etc., with the girls getting some kind of commission.

I am not a prosecutor in Ukraine, and I do not have the power to investigate the matter further.  It does smell very bad to me.  So I have posted a warning.

A word to the wise is sufficient...

There is no scam unless you send money under false pretenses. The woman probably has no idea that her profile is on that site. My advice would be to stay away from that site. If the gal doesn't wish to communicate with you on mamba, take it that she is not interested and move on. If you try to communicate with her on CD, you will indeed get everything you deserve. Strider, actually your actions could come far closer to stalking than her's is to scamming

[Shadow]

Perhaps you can send the girl on Mamba a warning her pictures are on CD. She can request to close the profile, or the site.
It happens often that Fat Yuri steals pictures from Mamba or VK. He does not have to hire models, there are more than enough pictures around and writing sweet letters is not limited to women.....

[Strider]

There is no scam unless you send money under false pretenses. The woman probably has no idea that her profile is on that site.

If CD is using her photos without her permission, it is collecting money under false pretenses, which is fraud.

If she is getting a commission for enticing men to buy credits to write her and possibly visit her in Kiev, it meets my definition of fraud, since that was not disclosed, she appears not to live in Kiev, and she appears to be insincere.  Again, this is collecting money under false pretenses, thus fraud.

My advice would be to stay away from that site... If you try to communicate with her on CD, you will indeed get everything you deserve.

Wise advise, indeed.  I hope others will draw the same conclusion from my post.  I have spent enough time in Ukraine through the years to know that there are masters of the scam here.  They will try to connive money from the rich Westerns any way possible, and they don't think there is anything wrong because it is "little money" to us.  On a similar note, the police here are usually useless for foreigners and are best avoided lest they demand a bribe for something.

[CDW]

There is no scam unless you send money under false pretenses. The woman probably has no idea that her profile is on that site. My advice would be to stay away from that site. If the gal doesn't wish to communicate with you on mamba, take it that she is not interested and move on. If you try to communicate with her on CD, you will indeed get everything you deserve. Strider, actually your actions could come far closer to stalking than her's is to scamming

It doesn't matter if the woman has no idea or not, still it is a "fraud" from CD.  One way or another, it is still fraud - whether it is the woman or the company.

$10 per letter is lot of money from the company/woman

Let's break it down, an example

$4 for the company
$3 for advertising
$3 for the woman

If the woman gets 10 letters per day.  She would get $30 a day.  $900 a month is lots of money in Ukraine - just to reply 10 letters a day.   95% of the letters are "copy and paste".    $900 a month for 1-2 hours a day!

[Strider]

It did occur to me that the lady may not know that her pictures are being used by some fat Ivan or Yuri.  That is why I suggested creating a "gray list'.  The fact is that this is suspicious as hell.

I did mention CD in some messages to her on Mamba, and got no response.  She either read them or deleted them without reading them.  (I should note that although some pictures are the same on both sites, many are not, and all of them look to have been professionally done.  I suspect, that she knows what is happening at CD.)  I have done enough, and don't want to be accused of stalking her, but this kind of scam needs to be addressed by those interested in the FSU ladies. 

Perhaps I should report her to Mamba?

The Internet has become more powerful in the FSU in recent years, and the scammers will take full advantage of it and the non-existent law enforcement of scamming Westerners.  A selfish beautiful lady can do more harm now than simply get free meals at expensive restaurants like in the old days.  She can make quite a living just answering emails from men she has no interest in ever meeting.

Perhaps you can send the girl on Mamba a warning her pictures are on CD. She can request to close the profile, or the site.
It happens often that Fat Yuri steals pictures from Mamba or VK. He does not have to hire models, there are more than enough pictures around and writing sweet letters is not limited to women.....

[CDW]

Hey [EDIT]

Why don't you write HERE what you have written to me in my private message!!

[Faux Pas]

Why don't you write HERE what you have written to me in my private message!!

Why don't you?

[TheTraveler]

I suspect, that she knows what is happening at CD.)  I have done enough, and don't want to be accused of stalking her, but this kind of scam needs to be addressed by those interested in the FSU ladies.  Perhaps I should report her to Mamba?

strider, so many of the amateur 'investigators' who have started similar threads have rationalized their wasted time by saying that they are exposing scammers as a public service to other men in this endeavor.
 
i'm curious what is your motivation?
 
when i was looking, i also ran into a few scammers -- but i recognized them as such, never fell for any scams, never sent money, and moved on quickly.  had i obsessed on them, i may have missed the opportunity to meet my now-wife.  but i guess i'm a selfish guy.  i never thought about helping the mob 'community'.
 

[CDW]

.

[Shadow]

So what do we know?

1. The lady in question has not been notified directly, or did not find it useful to answer because she could not understand the letter.
SOLUTION: Make a warning message and get it translated in Russian (enough member here who would help out for free). After that it is obviously up to her to react, take adction or not. You already know she has no interest in you.

2. The site contains at least one questionable member. If you feel that this is because they are stealing profiles and you want to waste your time in doing research instead of decidating it to find a life partner.
SOLUTION: check out a number of profile pictures and see if there is a common source. If there is, you ca notify that source of the site stealing their pictures (and probably profiles). That will take them out a lot faster as any mention on scam lists.

[Strider]

strider, so many of the amateur 'investigators' who have started similar threads have rationalized their wasted time by saying that they are exposing scammers as a public service to other men in this endeavor.
 
i'm curious what is your motivation?

Obviously, you are confused.  I wrote that I did not have the power to conduct an investigation.  My purpose is to give a warning to others.  They can come to their own conclusions about CD.  You, apparently, no longer require such services...
 

but i guess i'm a selfish guy.  i never thought about helping the mob 'community'.

Well, you wrote that, and thank you for being so honest and self-effacing.  One of my rules when traveling (and I travel frequently) is that we, the Westerners, must stick together so the locals don't rip us all off.  I am happy to share my experiences to help others, since I learn from theirs.  I guess you just don't get that.

[Strider]

There is what you know, and what I suspect.  Therefore, what "we" know is not consistent and nothing can be proved conclusively.  I wrote to her in Russian about the CD site.  Shortly after I first wrote to her on Mamba mentioning her profile on CD, my profile was viewed by a bald, 62 year old man from Dnepropetrovsk.  Funny that because I don't swing that way (and his profile states he is looking for women).  She logs on to Mamba several times a day by mobile, which is consistent with someone who needs to check in frequently to cut and paste responses on the pay per letter sites.  Again, nothing is proven, but from all that I have seen, I am inclined to believe that she is up to trouble, and I would stay far away from CD.  Unlike you, I am not convinced that CD is stealing pictures and profiles.  I suspect that there are commissions getting paid here.

Again, I am not here as an investigator.  I am simply giving a warning about this site.

So what do we know?

1. The lady in question has not been notified directly, or did not find it useful to answer because she could not understand the letter.
SOLUTION: Make a warning message and get it translated in Russian (enough member here who would help out for free). After that it is obviously up to her to react, take adction or not. You already know she has no interest in you.

2. The site contains at least one questionable member. If you feel that this is because they are stealing profiles and you want to waste your time in doing research instead of decidating it to find a life partner.
SOLUTION: check out a number of profile pictures and see if there is a common source. If there is, you ca notify that source of the site stealing their pictures (and probably profiles). That will take them out a lot faster as any mention on scam lists.

[jone]

Strider -

I hope you're taking good care of Frodo and the Boys.

The easy answer is a cover-all answer.  Don't use PPL (Pay-per-letter) sites.  There.  You have it covered for CD.

PPL sites contain every deception in the MOB industry:

1.  Ladies whose pictures are being used without their knowledge.
2.  Ladies who are married, or have boyfriends, but willing to put up profiles to get paid.
3.  Agencies that post pictures to multiple PPL sites.  (Keep in mind that most agencies are local, while many of the big sites like AD are simply clearing houses for the agencies.)
4.  Women that are on the sites for the express purpose of getting you to talk to them and even meeting you and taking your money once you are together.  (A variation on number 2.)

The money is too good to pass up as has been noted above.

It should be noted that some women actually are on these sites to find a husband.  But the shelf life is very short.  Imagine that you are joining Charmingdate with the idea of finding a husband.  You get a bunch of losers who are too old or too explicit or simply want to talk to someone and have no intentions of marrying you.  You get tired of the grind pretty quickly.  You stop logging on and your profile begins to be worked (with or without your permission) by the local agency.

So, who could you possibly wish to communicate with? Find the women that are only on the site for three months or less.  (Look at their IDs.)  Tell them that you only interest is to find a bride and you think that they fit the profile.  Then tell them that you have made a substantial commitment on your side by paying for their contact information and that you wish to see that they are equally committed.

Then give them your email address in live chat.  If they respond directly to your email, they may be real.  If they don't, either they're not interested, they're not who they say they are, or they are there to earn a Grivna or Ruble.

I, personally subscribe to ML's philosophy of using only free sites or subscription sites.  But this is a possible way to use a PPL site and have it work for you.  If the profile is over 90 days, the likelihood of the woman being someone you want to take home to Mom is about 5%.

Your thoughts on a 'Gray' list are noble.  But the effort going into maintaining it do not justify the desired outcome as the site would have to be advertised to be of any use.  An individual scammer is not worth your thoughts or your efforts.  The Thenardiers (Sasha Baron Cohen and Helena Bonham Carter in the film version) of Les Miserables are perfect examples of this strata of hucksters that have existed since man first came together in cities.  Today this strata is formed by Nigerian Emails, Ponzi Schemes and, you guessed it, Mail Order Brides. 

I wish you well on your quest.  But you will have greater luck at curing herpes than resolving the MOB problem.

-j

[jone]

Strider,

One last thought:

There are 'specialists' whose only job is to write 'profile' histories for these women.  I talked to one whose upward age limit was 35.  But her profile said that she would marry someone to 64.  How many of these child brides want to marry their grandfathers?  LOL!!!!

[Shadow]

There is what you know, and what I suspect.  Therefore, what "we" know is not consistent and nothing can be proved conclusively.  I wrote to her in Russian about the CD site.  Shortly after I first wrote to her on Mamba mentioning her profile on CD, my profile was viewed by a bald, 62 year old man from Dnepropetrovsk.  Funny that because I don't swing that way (and his profile states he is looking for women).  She logs on to Mamba several times a day by mobile, which is consistent with someone who needs to check in frequently to cut and paste responses on the pay per letter sites.  Again, nothing is proven, but from all that I have seen, I am inclined to believe that she is up to trouble, and I would stay far away from CD.  Unlike you, I am not convinced that CD is stealing pictures and profiles.  I suspect that there are commissions getting paid here.

Again, I am not here as an investigator.  I am simply giving a warning about this site.

My apologies, I was unaware that you have studied Russian or took the time to have it translated. Of course if you used Google translation then it is clear why you did not get an answer. You would also not answer a message in gibberish.

[Shadow]

Well, you wrote that, and thank you for being so honest and self-effacing.  One of my rules when traveling (and I travel frequently) is that we, the Westerners, must stick together so the locals don't rip us all off.  I am happy to share my experiences to help others, since I learn from theirs.  I guess you just don't get that.

One of my rules when traveling is to come as close to the locals as possible and avoid tourists with the idea that all locals are out to rip them off. People trust others like they trust them selves.

[mendeleyev]

One of my rules when traveling is to come as close to the locals as possible and avoid tourists with the idea that all locals are out to rip them off. People trust others like they trust them selves.

Well stated, Shadow.

I know the locals, know what to expect and what is acceptable behaviour in most public situations. The tourists are another variety and can be prone to get themselves in trouble. Plus, even though the t-shirt may proclaim the tourist to be be from the USA, for all I know the dude could be an axe murderer or heaven knows, even a Michigan or Ohio State fan!   

[mendeleyev]

Perhaps I should report her to Mamba?

The Internet has become more powerful in the FSU in recent years, and the scammers will take full advantage of it and the non-existent law enforcement of scamming Westerners.  A selfish beautiful lady can do more harm now than simply get free meals at expensive restaurants like in the old days.  She can make quite a living just answering emails from men she has no interest in ever meeting.

Strider, this one is easily solved without resorting to report a lady whom you've never met or investigated.

Make plans to meet her. If she meets and appears/acts genuine, then fine. If however she doesn't want to meet, stop writing her and move on to a lady who does wish to meet. There is no scam for a woman who answers letters and decides not to meet a man any more than a scam when a man writes letters and then chooses not to visit that lady.

I do sense with you however that the agency may be a waste of time so probably better to just move on.

I wish you the best.

[Anechka]

So what do we know?

1. The lady in question has not been notified directly, or did not find it useful to answer because she could not understand the letter.
SOLUTION: Make a warning message and get it translated in Russian (enough member here who would help out for free). After that it is obviously up to her to react, take adction or not. You already know she has no interest in you.

2. The site contains at least one questionable member. If you feel that this is because they are stealing profiles and you want to waste your time in doing research instead of decidating it to find a life partner.
SOLUTION: check out a number of profile pictures and see if there is a common source. If there is, you ca notify that source of the site stealing their pictures (and probably profiles). That will take them out a lot faster as any mention on scam lists.

1) post a message here, someone will translate, or you can pm me, I'll translate for you.
2) too much work, but if you have time and desire...

Thanks god I have a closed profile on VK, there is a mixture of my professional and amature photos there, hopefully, it's not used for fraud /scam

[noelscot]

In October, I happened to find this pay per letter site.  I didn't pay for anything, but I did send a few free "cupid notes" which get a quick response to encourage the purchase of a paid letter.  I suspected a come-on.

One girl I found particularly attractive I recently noticed having a profile on mamba.ru.  The difference between the two profiles is striking.  Some of the photos are the same, (and look to be professionally done,) but her CD profile lists her age off by a year, her height an inch more, and lists her looking for men up to age 54.  On mamba her upper limit is only 40 and she has far less sweetness and much more attitude.  Her city changes from Dnepropetrovsk on mamba to Kiev on CD.  Of course, the same girl that wrote from CD that she wanted to know me much better and how attracted she was to me has not answered a single message on mamba nor viewed my profile. 

Do girls like this qualify for a black list, or maybe even a gray list?

It appears that it is easier to scam many men for small fees, than one man for a large fee.  It is like the difference between a meat and a diary farm.  The first kills the cows, and the second just keeps milking them everyday.

Hey Strider,


You did your due diligence by letting people know the site is baloney. Obviously it is a scam. I'd just move on, as Traveler advised, because the folks on here love to argue endlessly.

[Strider]

One of T rules when traveling is to come as close to the locals as possible and avoid tourists with the idea that all locals are out to rip them off. People trust others like they trust them selves.

Again, you are mistaken.  I wrote that I am a frequent traveler, and not a tourist.  There is a large difference between the two.  The traveler lives and works in other countries.  The tourist goes on short trips for a vacation and gets led around by tour guides who separate him from his money.  Other Western travelers are invaluable sources of knowledge about not getting overcharged, cheated, etc.  That is not to say I don't have friends among the locals, but they are friends and not usually people looking to make money from my visit.

My apologies, I was unaware that you have studied Russian or took the time to have it translated. Of course if you used Google translation then it is clear why you did not get an answer. You would also not answer a message in gibberish.

I prefer to be modest about myself, and this thread is not about me.  I can communicate effectively to Russian speakers in Russian when needed.

I know the locals, know what to expect and what is acceptable behaviour in most public situations. The tourists are another variety and can be prone to get themselves in trouble.

Knowing what is acceptable behavior in public is quite different than the trusting the locals with handling my needs for my visit.  In this country, commissions are paid for getting Westerners to rent hotel rooms or apartments, using a certain taxi driver, getting a group to eat at a certain restaurant, etc.  I have learned to be cautious in these things.  For those who are not cautious in these matters, the fool and his money are soon parted.

Make plans to meet her. If she meets and appears/acts genuine, then fine. If however she doesn't want to meet, stop writing her and move on to a lady who does wish to meet.

Been there and done that. She never answered the invitation to meet.  Considering her previous correspondence at CD, I expected some kind of response.  If she didn't correspond with me previously, I think some acknowledgment of the problem was in order.  Stone cold silence was all that I got.   I am meeting another lady today.

There is no scam for a woman who answers letters and decides not to meet a man any more than a scam when a man writes letters and then chooses not to visit that lady.

Really, you are oversimplifying the issue and omitting the fact that there is money, insincerity or possible fraud involved.  From a Western perspective this is unacceptable but thank you for sharing the Ukrainian/Russian perspective that ignores the money spent to meet a lady who appears to live in a different city than the one she represents to those who pay to correspond with her.  Should any man pay for the three letters required to then buy her address, possibly buy airfare, pay for a hotel and waste his vacation time, you have described the attitude which he will encounter from the Ukrainian police:  the lady just changed her mind, so there is no fraud or crime.

1) post a message here, someone will translate, or you can pm me, I'll translate for you.
2) too much work, but if you have time and desire...

1. Thank you for the offer to help, but I am finished writing to this girl.
2. I agree.  It is too much work.  I have no desire to investigate this site further.  It is a bit like finding a cockroach in my spaghetti:  Having found one I have no desire to look for another.  I am finished eating this dish.

The easy answer is a cover-all answer.  Don't use PPL (Pay-per-letter) sites.  There.  You have it covered for CD.

I Agree.   I just wanted to give a case in point.

PPL sites contain every deception in the MOB industry:
1.  Ladies whose pictures are being used without their knowledge.
2.  Ladies who are married, or have boyfriends, but willing to put up profiles to get paid.
3.  Agencies that post pictures to multiple PPL sites.  (Keep in mind that most agencies are local, while many of the big sites like AD are simply clearing houses for the agencies.)
4.  Women that are on the sites for the express purpose of getting you to talk to them and even meeting you and taking your money once you are together.  (A variation on number 2.)

The money is too good to pass up as has been noted above.

Yes, it is easy money and there is a local culture that scamming Western men shows how clever they are, and that this is good thing for Ukraine.  I don't think that this is truly bad girl, but she is young, selfish, a bit greedy, and very foolish.  At a very young age she states on Mamba that she already has her dream job.  I think I know what that job is. 

It should be noted that some women actually are on these sites to find a husband.  But the shelf life is very short.  Imagine that you are joining Charmingdate with the idea of finding a husband.  You get a bunch of losers who are too old or too explicit or simply want to talk to someone and have no intentions of marrying you.  You get tired of the grind pretty quickly.  You stop logging on and your profile begins to be worked (with or without your permission) by the local agency.

There also are corruption issues with the local police, but as long as the girl herself is actually sending the messages, the local attitude is that she is free to change her mind, even if she is getting a commission for her correspondence.  (See above)

Your thoughts on a 'Gray' list are noble.  But the effort going into maintaining it do not justify the desired outcome as the site would have to be advertised to be of any use.  An individual scammer is not worth your thoughts or your efforts. 

The absence of a sheriff in town to clean things up means that the market is left to find solutions to problems.  Sites that are paying models commissions to drive sales are taking business from more legitimate sites, discouraging men from spending the big bucks to take a tour, etc.  They have an incentive to support a gray list.  The first anti-scam site was just a guy collecting information about scammers.  He got respectable agencies to support him.  The gray list doesn't need to prove that the girls took money, just that they are associated with dubious sites and the caution is advised when dealing with them.  I want to know if a lady has a past with a shady operator before I decide to start  communicating with her. 

Strider,
One last thought:
There are 'specialists' whose only job is to write 'profile' histories for these women.  I talked to one whose upward age limit was 35.  But her profile said that she would marry someone to 64.  How many of these child brides want to marry their grandfathers?  LOL!!!!

I don't believe sites with an 18 year old girl who states she has no upper age limit.  (Not in the FSU.)  I want to know what a girl's actual age limit is.  If I am a year or two over that, and I think that I am tall, handsome, fit, successful, etc., I might try to tempt her.  Part of what a matchmaker does is to try to get people past some of their self-imposed requirements.  But that must be my decision to spend the money to meet her.  If the agency is misrepresenting her interests to get more business, that is fraud.

Hey Strider,

You did your due diligence by letting people know the site is baloney. Obviously it is a scam. I'd just move on, as Traveler advised, because the folks on here love to argue endlessly.

Now we have come full circle.  I think this is a scam, but others must draw their own conclusions.  Since I started the thread, I responded a bit more than usual to try to keep the discussion on track.  I am moving on now.  I have a date this afternoon, so I will be busy.

Strider -
I hope you're taking good care of Frodo and the Boys.

As, always I am.  Being the rightful king and all, I have duties.

[Shadow]

Again, you are mistaken.  I wrote that I am a frequent traveler, and not a tourist.  There is a large difference between the two.  The traveler lives and works in other countries.  The tourist goes on short trips for a vacation and gets led around by tour guides who separate him from his money.  Other Western travelers are invaluable sources of knowledge about not getting overcharged, cheated, etc.  That is not to say I don't have friends among the locals, but they are friends and not usually people looking to make money from my visit.

Traveler or tourist, the idea is the same. Every other person should be approached as a human being, not as a potential scammer. Just know the prices, and if they try to overcharge take your business elsewhere.