Beaten in Odessa

[LAman]

LOL. I forgot to respond to this before jone did, but I'm sure Calmissile have his reason/s and whatever they may be, I can't say I share the sentiment. Not even San Berdo...
 
For one, I probably blend *better* in South Central than I do in St Pete...Besides, I got raped more than a few times in Southbay, but so what? I'm sure plenty of men would've love to trade places with me 

Was that consentual or not??? Before i answer about 'trading places'??

[ML]

Was that consentual or not??? Before i answer about 'trading places'??

Consensual rape; a new category?

Or an oxymoron?

[LAman]

   I feel safer in Ukraine than I do in Los Angeles by a wide margin.

You got to be kidding me!!!! Living a place for so long....you know exactly where not to be.
I am more cautious in ukraine....I am not always sure where not to be....and certainly late at night can be dangerous..what is that saying,  "nothing good happens after 2AM"
In all my time spent in Ukraine, never have I ever been stopped by a cop while out and about...for any reason. Only once while riding in a 'taxi' were we pulled over by a cop with a flashlight(?)...it was only for bribe....then we  were on our way.
Now Russia...a different story....in St Pitre...the cops couldn't wait to stop me and asking to see my papers, I see them coming from the side........yet were professional about it. of course...I don't look anything like a russian!!!
In Moldova, I was more scared with the cops at night...I was out late at night often. Not a good place to be walking with a young girl in tow..... best to keep distance between you.

[GQBlues]

Consensual rape; a new category?

Or an oxymoron?

No and yes to those Qs, or all of the above, ML. I really meant *OK* when I said 'yes'. Besides, who was I to argue?
 
LAMan, jone likely won't agree, but the Westsider felines would likely be a better choice for you. Southbay gals have taken one too many Barbie pills.

[alex330]

You are healthy to be skeptical of the cops in Ukraine.  We also need to to separate the cops that take bribes (normal for Ukraine), the lazy ones that will not investigate a crime, and the ones that go around beating up people.

The cops that take bribes and government officials that take bribes.  Get over it!  That is how it is and your not going to change it.  If you want to fit into the culture you go with the flow. 

The lazy cops, I don't have an answer for.  If it is important enough to pursue, then I suppose a small bribe might get the job done.  If it isn't that important, I would leave it be. 

Your question about how do short timer visitors keep from getting into trouble with the cops and how do they tell the 'good ones' from the 'bad ones' is a very good question.  It is a difficult situation when you are basically alone or with someone you do not know well enough to trust.

There are several strategies I have used, but might not be suitable for everyone.
1.  Be accompanied by your date/sweetheart/wife, etc. when you are out and about.  She will know how to handle the situation and you playing macho is not going to help, only make matters worse.  Furthermore she will not appreciate your butting into a situation she is trying to resolve or diffuse.
2.  If possible have a family or agent as a friend that you can trust to call 24/7 is case you have any kind of problems.  While I Kiev, I used Val.  He seemed to able to cure any problems.  You can also play dumb to the cops at the site and hand the phone over to your friend to handle the situation.
3.  Don't put yourself at risk.  It sounds common sense, but putting the make on someone else's girlfriend in a bar is likely to get your nose broken or worse.  She might even be flirting with you to test her boyfriends resolve to defend her.  LOL
4.  Avoid the cops if you can.  I have never had any trouble asking for directions, but also try to not do anything that gets their attention.
5.  Don't become a target.  Either your mouth or your wallet is likely to get the earliest attention from thugs or bad cops!

Peronally I am not worried about getting beat up by rogue cops.  When you consider the huge numbers of foreign visitors and the relatively few number of reported cases of police beatings, your chances are pretty good you will not have this problem unless you somehow provoke it.  I feel safer in Ukraine than I do in Los Angeles by a wide margin.

Good advice. Pretty much my experience and what I am told by locals in Odessa. Just basic common sense. Many of the lazy cops are just underpaid, jaded and alcoholics. Bribes are necessary to supplement income.

My wife is from Odessa and her ex is an officer on the force there currently. I asked her opinion.
She said he should file a police report for a crime like this and the officers will definitely investigate and try to find the perpetrators. If media attention can be received it will help. She says it sounds like the girl and her boyfriend just wanted some money to go party. Some of her thoughts on the incident:

1. If a police officer was involved or was one of the assailants it will be difficult. This does occur she tells me.
2. He will not be taken as seriously as he is a foreigner looking for a bride. He may brought this on himself by doing something stupid she says.
3. The squeeky wheel gets the grease. This works in escalating the issue within the department as well as a little additional money so investigators can perform their job with more interest.
4. There is always the other route. Something more appropriate for a recently released out of work convict than local Mafia though.

[Anotherkiwi]

Damn, that must be Iratating! 

And, believe it or not, I live in Ira Street!

[Anotherkiwi]

Consensual rape; a new category?

Or an oxymoron?

Isn't that the phrase coined by some moronic Republican politician?

[Anotherkiwi]

On a much more serious note, a woman with whom I corresponded for quite some time has a son who is a Police detective (whether or not he's honest or not I have no idea, and I certainly wouldn't ask).  I was quite staggered when she told me that he had to buy his own desk, chair, table lamp and laptop for work, because they weren't provided!  If that's anywhere near the norm you can see why so many would be on the take, even if only for small amounts.  I personally have only had good reactions from cops that I've approached in Russia for directions, taking photos, etc - the only bad one was one in the registration office who was very frustrated that I hadn't registered in his city within the required time.
 
As far as this whole story goes, the victim has my sincere sympathy.  I'm lucky that I've only been thumped once in my life, and that was at school (hurt pride more than anything, that some grubby fourth-former would dare to hit a senior!), so I can't begin to imagine what this man is going through.  One thing, though, which is related to threads from last year (especially brought up in relation to Olly's trips to Australia), is whether or not he has adequate travel insurance.  The quote upthread about $15,000 in extra costs (which may even be an understatement, especially as he will have ongoing problems after he returns home) reinforces my case that this is a necessity, notwithstanding assertions by ML and various others about it being a waste of time and money.  In a case such as this I would consider it money very well spent.

[BillyB]

The issue arises when foreigners start in their 'demand' mode. The respect people might have for their police at home seems to be thrown out when they cross the border, and at once any cop is a corrupt lowly creature that could not find a better job as to leech from locals and foreigners. That attitude is sertain to cause a problem and delays that are often reported.

 
I've never known foreigners getting into "demand mode" with cops in the FSU since they have a bad reputation. With that reputation who in their right mind is going to start an attitude with cops in the FSU? Police there aren't know to be corrupt based off what disgruntled foreigners say, it's based off what the natives, who live there, say.
 
 
Good advice is to keep a low profile and stay away from cops. I do that. Anybody ever heard the saying "In the FSU you don't look for a party, the party looks for you"? That's right, trouble comes looking for you. Watch the citizens there. They walk past cops never making eye contact or saying a word. In America I can make eye contact, greet cops on the street, and even talk to them at restaurants never worrying I'm going to get a shakedown.
 
 
 

Treat them with the respect they are used to for wearing the uniform, and you will find their response entirely different.

 
Shadow, you have too much faith all cops are equal all over the world. One can say ever police organization has a few bad cops and it's true but to judge a police organization, one has to look at the big picture.
 
 
It's easy for us westerners to view cops as the enforcers of law to protect citizens. An honorable job. What do the people here think about the cops and military that got killed by the citizens Syria or other Arab nations during their revolt? I feel no sympathy for those killed that were in charge of law and order in those nations. I don't feel those citizens are violating the law, they're just using a means to make some changes. Treating cops with respect certainly wouldn't have changed their ways as you suggest. Maybe an individual cop would respond better with respect but not the organization and those that run the organization create the system and currently the system in the FSU is susceptible to corruption.
 
 
If you ask any FSU citizen on where to find outstanding people, one of the last places they will send you is to a police station. Their police force isn't as bad as Iran's but it's still bad enough to where people do get put away for having the wrong political beliefs and opinions. If one doesn't go to jail, one may disappear as some journalists have.
 
 
I have a hard time understanding why some may think the right thing to do is using cops for law, order and to seek justice. If giving them bribes is a way of life there and law does not apply, vigilante justice should not be looked down upon because it's an effective means to an end and you're not at the mercy of the cops who may or may not do their job.
 
 
A lot of folks in the FSU aren't happy with their police and government and maybe it's not enough to use violence yet to make changes but if violence is used, I won't feel sympathy for the cops and the good cops out there will have to decide which side is the good side.
 
 
If I were approach by a couple of street criminals, instead of cops that one night, and they didn't have weapons, I would have kicked their azz. With cops it's different, they got guns, a badge, and the thought of them planting drugs in my pocket to extort a bigger bribe crossed my mind. Unarmed criminals would have to use force to get my money but because of the badge, cops had the right to touch me and grab my wallet.
 
 
I called the consulate after the incident. One officer says he come to love the country and feels bad for Ukraine and their citizens for living for this tarnishes their reputation. He's talking  about the corrupt police. He says this also happens to other tourists too and recommend tourists to carry the conuslate emergency number and tell the cops to talk to them before letting them touch you.
 
 
I'm sure the American consulate knows what happened to the victim in this thread. I'm sure they made calls to the local authorities but if the local authorities don't want to spend much time on an investigation, it's their call. A guy almost died and it's a very serious crime. My guess is they're not going to do much and the more they wait, the easier it is for the criminals to get away.

[BillyB]

The cops that take bribes and government officials that take bribes.  Get over it!  That is how it is and your not going to change it.  If you want to fit into the culture you go with the flow.
 
 

 
Bribing is a way of life over there, that is true, but you make it sound as if it's acceptable. It's unacceptable to say it's acceptable and most FSU people will agree.
 
 
My ex wife had a cousin, in Ukriane, who's boyfriend died as a passenger in a car accident. When vehicular manslauter happens, someone goes to jail her uncles told me during a family get together. I asked for details about the accident and asked which driver was at fault since the one who caused the accident and death goes to jail. No details were given. The uncles universally agreed the one who has the least money to pay the cops goes to jail.
 
 
Let's say you were in Ukraine driving and this situation happened to you and your passenger died due to another driver's error yet you go to jail because the other driver out-bribed you. Is this acceptable to you?  Is is okay of the driver at fault to say "Get over it! This is the way of life here."?
 
 
My wife's mother is a doctor and she seen a number of times where a family brings in a dying child or elderly parent, beg and cry to a doctor to give medical attention to their loved one only for the doctor to refuse unless he gets more money, money they may not have.
 
 
Let's say you bring your dying child into a hospital in the FSU and offer everything you got to the doctors yet it's less than what they want and you get turned away. Is this acceptable? Do they have the right to say "Get over it! This is the way of life here"?
 
 
It's easy for people to say it's acceptable until a bad situation happens to them. Bribing is a way of life there, no dispute about that, but it is unacceptable for these things to happen to anybody. There has been talk of good cops in the FSU but "good" cops would not need a bribe to get motivated to do the "right thing" in helping the victim in this thread and create a safe environment for the public by catching criminals to prevent other people from getting their heads smashed in.
 
 
As it stands now, it seems the cops aren't motivated to help the victime and the only thing needed is money to get justice and prevent further crimes from the perpetrators. If the victim doesn't have enough money to bribe the cops to do their job, another nice, naive man, possibly right here at this forum, will have his head smashed in next time he visits the FSU. Acceptable?

[Belvis]

Watch the citizens there. They walk past cops never making eye contact or saying a word. In America I can make eye contact, greet cops on the street, and even talk to them at restaurants never worrying I'm going to get a shakedown.

My guess is you're not from Baltimore. 
http://jonathanturley.org/2010/05/03/baltimore-police-arrest-couple-asking-for-directions-to-the-interstate/

Your impression about cops/citizens interaction in Russia is wrong, though I understand how you've got it. Locals like to complain about their cops but in reality the police force is the reflection of society. Cops are no better, no worse of their compatriots. People don't like when cops intervene in their routine life and small wrongdoings, however can rely on them in the case of serious troubles. I'm sure I'm not alone respecting these guys. 400 of them died on duty in Russia in 2010, 300 in 2011, 10 times more were wounded.
Bribing of traffic cops on roads is common. Here bribes is a sort of fine for traffic violations. However I don't hear anybody among my circle of friends bribed cops for their law enforcement work. You have to bribe them to work against law, but it would be another subject.

[GQBlues]

On a much more serious note, a woman with whom I corresponded for quite some time has a son who is a Police detective (whether or not he's honest or not I have no idea, and I certainly wouldn't ask).  I was quite staggered when she told me that he had to buy his own desk, chair, table lamp and laptop for work, because they weren't provided!  If that's anywhere near the norm you can see why so many would be on the take, even if only for small amounts.  I personally have only had good reactions from cops that I've approached in Russia for directions, taking photos, etc - the only bad one was one in the registration office who was very frustrated that I hadn't registered in his city within the required time.

Oh cry me a river! You sound almost like CalMissille...not quite, but close.

You may as well say it's OK for robbers to rob people because they need the money. FSU folks are undoubtedly managing life in FSU the way they are but I doubt that means everything is understandable, thus acceptable, because their cops have to buy their own desk, - or there's a few *good cops* depite not really knowing how many, who they are and how to tell which one. Given the choice I'm sure every single one of them would opt to a more gentile society like everyone else. Life is the way they are in FSU.

Of course foreigners need to steer a sane and safe course while in-country, that's a no-brainer, but that's akin to saying it's also much safer NOT to walk directly unto a speeding train. Anyone that needs to be told that shouldn't be out of their homes.
 

[vaiano777]

Just got home from a meeting with a girl from Moscow AnastasiDate who was sent to try to handle this situation. She visited the victim in the hospital, and she volunteered to help by hiring a full-time assistant to be interviews and approved by me. Also, she agreed to reimburse the victim's mother for all of her expenses in dealing with this tragedy.

She also stated that all of their information on the girl, her passport and personal information has already been sent to the local police, and that the police believe that they will have the case resolved in a week. We shall see what happens with that.

She would not comply with my request to release the girl's records to the AnastasiaDate attorney in Chicago. That request was made so that we could begin civil proceedings as well. If there is anyone out there who can help with this, that would be great appreciated. I was going to write the release request, but not being a full attorney, I trust one of your ability to write the request on an official request to release her information from the victim.

That's it for now. I have gotten sick from this, but tomorrow is a new day. Finally, the mother is in her flat, showered, and trying to relax until tomorrow morning. The victim will be released from the hospital to continue convalescing in a flat near the center instead of in that hospital. After five more days, we will take another CT scan to see if he can fly yet, and then hopefully, he can return home to see American doctors.

That's it for now. Thanks again for all of the support.

[Hammer2722]

Thanks for the update Vaiano. This guy is very lucky to have a person like you there to help him. 

[vaiano777]

Thanks for the update Vaiano. This guy is very lucky to have a person like you there to help him. 

Thank you for the acknowledgement. It is greatly appreciated.

[Anotherkiwi]

Oh cry me a river! You sound almost like CalMissille...not quite, but close.

You may as well say it's OK for robbers to rob people because they need the money. FSU folks are undoubtedly managing life in FSU the way they are but I doubt that means everything is understandable, thus acceptable, because their cops have to buy their own desk, - or there's a few *good cops* depite not really knowing how many, who they are and how to tell which one. Given the choice I'm sure every single one of them would opt to a more gentile society like everyone else. Life is the way they are in FSU...

Don't twist my words...I said it was understandable, but I would never say it was acceptable.

[LAman]

No and yes to those Qs, or all of the above, ML. I really meant *OK* when I said 'yes'. Besides, who was I to argue?
 
LAMan, jone likely won't agree, but the Westsider felines would likely be a better choice for you. Southbay gals have taken one too many Barbie pills.

Yes GQ...I have always had a fondness for Hermosa!!!!

[LAman]

Thanks vaiano for all the support you have given to this guy and his family. I can't imagine the amount of emotions running through everyone involved. I know it is possible anywhere.....just hope you are not in the wrong place at the wrong time!!!
 
BTW vaiano....where was this place where beating happened....how close to the centre?

[Shadow]

BillyB, some things.

1. I believe that people who join the police force wherever in the world do so to protect. While every force may have some bad apples, and the local customs may differ, there is no police force that is a hidden criminal organization.
Thinking otherwise is simply wrong. My inlaws have respect for the police, and will not heistate to involve them if needed. Some of Mrs Shadows family even works in public office. And no, they are not corrupt or greedy.

2. Perhaps where your wife is from the standards have lowered that much. However I will be able to get free medical care in Russia, though some bartering would always be appreciated.
To counter your point, when my sister went with her 3-year old child that had a huge fever to the hospital in Miami, their first question was : how do you pay.
So much for the American way as being better and people dying in the FSU because dactors want money.

[mies]

Just got home from a meeting with a girl from Moscow AnastasiDate who was sent to try to handle this situation. She visited the victim in the hospital, and she volunteered to help by hiring a full-time assistant to be interviews and approved by me. Also, she agreed to reimburse the victim's mother for all of her expenses in dealing with this tragedy.

She also stated that all of their information on the girl, her passport and personal information has already been sent to the local police, and that the police believe that they will have the case resolved in a week. We shall see what happens with that.

She would not comply with my request to release the girl's records to the AnastasiaDate attorney in Chicago. That request was made so that we could begin civil proceedings as well. If there is anyone out there who can help with this, that would be great appreciated. I was going to write the release request, but not being a full attorney, I trust one of your ability to write the request on an official request to release her information from the victim.

That's it for now. I have gotten sick from this, but tomorrow is a new day. Finally, the mother is in her flat, showered, and trying to relax until tomorrow morning. The victim will be released from the hospital to continue convalescing in a flat near the center instead of in that hospital. After five more days, we will take another CT scan to see if he can fly yet, and then hopefully, he can return home to see American doctors.

That's it for now. Thanks again for all of the support.

As far as I know, there are no civil proceedings in Ukrainian law. This, partly, contributes to the problem of bribes, and dis-encourages the guilty part to offer financial compensation to the victim. A Ukrainian lawyer explained this problem once to me. The lawyer said:
Suppose, a person is hit by a car while crossing the road on the green light. The driver leaves the scene, but is later found. The victim is in the hospital and requires expensive and very long treatment. Many victims would be willing to take monetary compensation to be able to get good treatment and recover, rather than putting the driver in jail. But in Ukrainian law there are only criminal charges for hit and run. And no matter whether the guilty part compensates the victim or not, and no matter whether the victim wants to press charges or not, the guilty part by law has to go to jail, for a long term. So even, supposedly, the harm wasn't intentional, and the guilty part would not mind paying the victim, they won't be able to avoid prison. And thus - there is no point for them to pay the victim. But if they pay the judge and police - then they can avoid the prison, and the case is dismissed. And since they are paying much already, and case is dismissed completely - then there are no legal grounds to require from them financial compensation for the victim. The concept of civil proceedings exists in Ukrainian law in a very fuzzy and unspecified form.

[mies]

Thank you for the acknowledgement. It is greatly appreciated.

Please, accept my acknowledgement of your noble and humane act too.

[BillyB]

 

My guess is you're not from Baltimore. 
http://jonathanturley.org/2010/05/03/baltimore-police-arrest-couple-asking-for-directions-to-the-interstate/

It's silly to take one article about the misbehavior of one cop from 2006 and use it as an example for an entire police force. It's silly to take the bad or good actions of one or a few officers to judge an entire police force. American and FSU police organizations have completey different reputations that they earned and deserve based off all their actions good and bad.


The article taken from a blog titled "Baltimore Police Arrest Couple Asking For Directions to the Interstate" makes you want to hate American cops. Didn't it cross your mind that there may be some bias here at the blog and the title is misleading? Here's an article of the same story from a legitimate news organization.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2006-05-18/news/0605180019_1_cherry-hill-kelley-arrest


The arrested driver, during an interview, didn't deny running a stop sign but questioned the officer on how she could even have see him running the stop sign. He also admitted to not signing the ticket until he got directions. Sounds like he's a smart azz to me. He's also been convicted of embezzlement. I googled the officers name and I can't find any issues with her. If I were the police woman's boss, I'd choose to believe her, an officer with no record of bad interaction with the public before this incident over the words of a convicted con man.
 

Your impression about cops/citizens interaction in Russia is wrong,

You and I read the article above differently and it's no surprise we see differently on this issue too. Some people believe Stalin's police force did a good job too. A good amount of people loved the man so much they cried when he died. The fact is FSU cops have a bad reputation not because of my individual opinion or a good reputation because of your individual opinion. They have a bad reputation because they earned it, not based on opinions but facts.
 

Locals like to complain about their cops but in reality the police force is the reflection of society. Cops are no better, no worse of their compatriots.

Cops are a reflection of those in charge of making law and enforcing the law. You are not going to convince me the society in Stalin's or Hitler's time was responsible for their police's behavior because it's a mirror of themselves.
 

1. I believe that people who join the police force wherever in the world do so to protect.

You are too kind to have those beliefs. Everyone in the FSU understands there is opportunity to make money illegally as an FSU police officer called a bribe. There are other ways, with little or no consequence, to make money illegally as an officer too. Why is it too hard to believe some police officers simply join the force for those opportunities? I certainly don't believe everyone who signs on to be a police officer is doing it for an honorable and unselfish reason.


Some people reading and learning about the FSU will tend to believe what you and Belvis are saying about FSU cops and think it's a good idea to interact with them even if it's to ask for directions. Some will tend to believe me and see interaction with them as unpredictable and risky. I don't trust FSU police organization. You have faith in them. For those readers who tend to believe and may be affected by what you say, can you and/or Belvis honestly say FSU police is an organization of integrity or at least say they pose no more risk interacting with them compared to the cops in Europe or America?
 

I will be able to get free medical care in Russia,

Medical care is not free in any country. Someone paid for it even if it's under the disguise of taxes.
 

To counter your point, when my sister went with her 3-year old child that had a huge fever to the hospital in Miami, their first question was : how do you pay.
So much for the American way as being better and people dying in the FSU because dactors want money.

The person asking you how you're going to pay is a clerk, not a doctor holding medical care for ransom in a life and death situation, If the child is having heat seizures and you went to the emergency room, it's against the law for the hospital to withhold medical care even if you aren't carrying a wallet, identification, or a medical insurance card.


Although your niece had a fever, she had to wait in line for her turn to see the doctor behind the rest of the ill people and of course the question on how one is to pay will come up.
 
I told my wife I don't blame FSU doctors getting supplimental income for the work they do and believe they're underpaid and overworked but it's simply wrong to hold someones life on the line for an enormous amount of money when they took a job knowing what the base pay is.

[vaiano777]

Thanks vaiano for all the support you have given to this guy and his family. I can't imagine the amount of emotions running through everyone involved. I know it is possible anywhere.....just hope you are not in the wrong place at the wrong time!!!
 
BTW vaiano....where was this place where beating happened....how close to the centre?

About a three minute walk from Potomken Steps, down the first street to the right when walking up Ekaterininskaya toward the statue.

[jone]

No and yes to those Qs, or all of the above, ML. I really meant *OK* when I said 'yes'. Besides, who was I to argue?
 
LAMan, jone likely won't agree, but the Westsider felines would likely be a better choice for you. Southbay gals have taken one too many Barbie pills.

I don't know what you are talking about.  Our ladies in the Southbay, many from Eastern European descent are beautiful beyond words.  Judge for yourself.

[Belvis]

 
It's silly to take one article about the misbehavior of one cop from 2006 and use it as an example for an entire police force. It's silly to take the bad or good actions of one or a few officers to judge an entire police force.

Exactly my point. I've just illustrated how bias can be created in media or limited personal experience.

American and FSU police organizations have completely different reputations that they earned and deserve based off all their actions good and bad.

I would note that police organizations in USA and Russia have completely different reputations in American and Russian minds because we're brainwashed by different media. Hey, Russia has such 'reputation' that it will be not much worse out of their cops 

You are not going to convince me the society in Stalin's or Hitler's time was responsible for their police's behavior because it's a mirror of themselves.

So you suppose that Russians or Germans were occupied by Martians who impose on them oppression regimes?