She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...

[Boethius]

She is ready to leave Turkey, but can't because she relies on her business for income.  I offered to help her transition to the US.  I did not offer to buy her an apartment though.

I may have misunderstood, but I thought you said she wanted you to buy her a property because she is "giving up so much".  It gets back to economic factors.   There are lots of things she could do to earn income in the U.S., if she wants to transition there, without having someone fund it for her.




I think the question is, is she moving to the US because that is what she wants, and you are a means to an end, or is she moving to the US because you are there.

[Paulie]

paulie came here with some very narrow questions about a specific rw.
 
i hope he realizes that he should be asking more 'big picture' questions about how to find and date women more effectively, which is truly the strength of this forum for a man in his shoes.

Yes, and 1) I am glad I found this site and all of you are incredibly insightful. 2) I am finding out that I have more chances of success in learning from everyone here.  3) I DO pay attention when the universe speaks.

Many thanks!

[Paulie]

Paul, what made you wait that long if you felt uncomfortable?

Hi Vasilisa, In answer to your question...I am the type to not just jump to conclusion if I see redeeming qualities in a given situation, whether it is a person or some other issue.  I usually like to do a reality check of my own thoughts and feelings.  Sometimes it could be me projecting my own issues.  So, I look at it from all angles.  That is what drove me to finding this wonderful forum. 

[Paulie]

Gator - what you suggest is fair and I will answer it...
1) She is very intelligent - we carry on conversations for hours on end and never run out of things to say.
2) She has a tremendous sense of humor.  For someone with English as a second language she gets it and understand the turn of a phrase.
3) She does have class.  She knows how to enjoy life when given the opportunity.  She is also elegant.
4) She does cook and does it well.  She made me many wonderful meals and tells me she does it for me.  I do believe that.
5) I've seen and felt the depth of her love.  She is very passionate and alluring.
6) She is concerned about my feelings and health.  I have heart disease and she is very worried about it all the time. 
7) I have seen her with her friends and they all treat her very, very kindly.  They are always doing things for her.  She has good friends.
I've seen her work with her students.  She is very caring and thoughtful. 

There are other redeeming aspects of the relationship.  This is why I have been willing to deal with the issues and am trying to get to a better place with her.  I am trying to seek a balance.  If I can't, I am done.

Sorry, I addressed this to Gator and it should have been BillyB.  Thanks Billy for your thoughtful post. 

[Paulie]

* You can  also have a frank discussion with her and tell her that is she a marvelous woman but each time she has such behavior you want to flee.

Thanks again for your post, always insightful.  She already knows my sentiments about her sweet disposition.  She also knows I will not "spoil" her.  The concept of "spoil" is opportunistic and I do not play that game.  She has already seen me flee emotionally and in the physical sense. 

This current trip is really telling me what I need to know.  When I return to the USA, I will be thinking about all the input I have been given. 

I am grateful for everyone's comments.

[Paulie]

I may have misunderstood, but I thought you said she wanted you to buy her a property because she is "giving up so much".  It gets back to economic factors.   There are lots of things she could do to earn income in the U.S., if she wants to transition there, without having someone fund it for her.

I think the question is, is she moving to the US because that is what she wants, and you are a means to an end, or is she moving to the US because you are there.

Hi Boethius, thanks for your comments.  "Giving up so much" is exactly what she said and exactly why I turned to this forum.  Honestly, no woman has ever asked for so much.  But then again I never had to deal with a woman leaving her resident country to come to the US. 

There ARE many things she can do to earn an income.  She would like to relax a bit before she embarks on a new business or career direction.  I am open to that for a few months, but not indefinitely. 

You pose a VERY interesting question about her intentions to move here: Am I the ticket she needs to get here so she can be with her daughter or is it because of me, or both?  A conundrum of a question indeed!

She did say that I am her #1 priority;  but...words are words.  Her deeds would be (at least for me) for her to express the desire to have a discussion about how to build her life in the US with her participating in the process.  We have touched on this conversation, having made statements that she could do "this or that" to help. 

So, it is possible that she could yield to reality and not live in a fantasy world that a knight in shining armor is coming to save her.  I will support her, not spoil her.  Two very different trajectories.  In essence this is a woman who wants to be 'kept' (a dream) and yet is aware of reality that it does not exist for the most part (there is a price to be paid for being kept IMHO). 

I want to take a moment and say that I am putting a lot out there, many specific details.  I never have done this before.  Perhaps others can glean from this experience as much as I am.  I know (as The Traveler said - this forum is about a broader range of issues) that I am sharing minute details about a specific relationship, but isn't that what it boils down to at the end of the day: West meeting East and understanding how these relationships play out?

[LiveFromUkraine]

I think people tend to have their mind made up regardless of them coming to this forum and asking questions.  Maybe they hope to hear what they want to hear.


You have already seen the woman and her demands.  It isn't going to change. 


I wonder if these guys do the same thing when dating locally.  Do they excuse poor character in other ways? 

[Paulie]

I think people tend to have their mind made up regardless of them coming to this forum and asking questions.  Maybe they hope to hear what they want to hear.

You have already seen the woman and her demands.  It isn't going to change. 

I wonder if these guys do the same thing when dating locally.  Do they excuse poor character in other ways?

Hi,  I would have to differ with your comments above.  I came to this site with an open mind to better understand if the demands/requests were a cultural issue relative to expectations. 

I see other qualities in this person and have decided to give her the "benefit of my doubt" with the intention of seeking first to understand, then to be understood. 

If I dismissed everyone for acting out wrongly in one way or another, I would never understand human nature. 

Lastly, there has been movement on her part to better understand her ideas are unworkable in its entirety.  We will see where this goes. 

So, I think your assessment is too general and borders precipitous.   

[Belvis]

I see other qualities in this person and have decided to give her the "benefit of my doubt" with the intention of seeking first to understand, then to be understood. 

If I dismissed everyone for acting out wrongly in one way or another, I would never understand human nature. 

Wise words. Easiest and most comfortable way is not always the best in building a lasting relationship. Countless problems resolved together are the cement of family bonds. I've got impression this woman is direct to the extent of being blunt in expressing her thoughts. So may be she means it telling about #1 priority. Anyway her deeds will tell more.

[Gator]

Paulie,
I commend your attitude as we discuss your relationship at RWD.   First, you have shown a rare degree of candor, not hiding anything that would reflect badly on you or her.  Second, your responses to criticism  have been balanced and not defensive nor argumentative.   Third, your deliberation is very thorough, and is based on analysis rather than emotion.   In summary, I have a feeling that whatever you decide will be best.
 
A few of my opinions as you continue your deliberations:
 
1.  You can not buy love.   You have been successful in business.  That alone gives you the financial security and stability that RW crave.   If she feels that she can trust you to take care of her (to put her first), your stability alone should negate her need for upfront money and a $5,000 monthly allowance.  Without such trust, you will waste the upfront money and large allowance (she will save it for the day she runs away).
 
2.   RW are natural skeptics.   Especially women in their 40s who have experienced much turmoil, both economic and relationship.   They have known many RM who played with their feelings, promising much and delivering little.   Experienced RW do not start out giving a man the benefit of the doubt.  They give little credence to words.   They look for clues.    What makes a RW believe that you will place her first?  Little things. 
 
3.  Building trust.  What are the little things that build trust?   Above all, do not come across as "greedy," which is Russian translation for stingy.  Thus,  quickly concede to any and all small requests.  Yet stand your ground on big ticket items.
 
The same as you I have been successful and I consider myself generous.  Although I may take a RW traveling to an exotic land  or just to a fine restaurant, they realize that I too am enjoying the experience so this is not placing them first.   To buy an expensive gift is not the answer either. 
 
My wife has remarked  about some little events that helped  her believe in me.   As one example, on one trip she was cold.  Even though we would miss some sightseeing, I cancelled our plans and made it a mission to buy her a pair of gloves.  Finding a store was not easy yet I did, and I showed patience and concern as I helped her select a pair.   It sounds so little, but to her it was big because I put her first.  Attentiveness is the word.
 
4.  Is it even possible with your woman?   I never spent much time with women as demanding as yours.  Is this her true nature?   Did you do anything that moved you from the category of "Interesting man who may be Mr. Right"   to  "Another patsy to milk who will pay for my visits with my daughter, and maybe even a mule for America?"   Only you know.  Hint:  Leading with your money such as simply showing photos of your house and Mercedes Benz will corrupt women on the fence.   If you did nothing to deserve being treated as a patsy, I assert she is hopeless. 
 
5.  If you decide to continue the relationship, do not pursue a fiancee visa now.    If you marry, I guarantee her adjustment and assimilation will create much stress for her, which she will give to you.  She will be worse than what you have already seen.   And you say you have a heart condition!!!!!!    Instead of marriage, continue to date and let trust build.  Meanwhile, it is rather nice to have a beautiful and interesting RW girlfriend.  A girlfriend is much less expensive than a wife.
 
6.  The absence of RW posters at RWD speaks volumes. Did you notice that when starting this thread, RW members explained that there may be merit in your woman's demands?   Have you noticed their absence ever since you revealed details of how this woman was treating you.  Do not ignore that.

[Patagonie]

Good post Gator

[JayH]

Good post Gator

Agreed--excellent post.

   There is another aspect that I think is relevent and in some ways many have touched part of this-- that is the way a RW can view the 'west". It is a lack of understanding  of how "we" actually live. While money may be available (as in the bank) it does not mean that it will be available to spend.The concept  of being "comfortable" financially does not translate to rich-- not by western standards.Perhaps in the context of this thread where I red the OP as being ok-- but not what most of us would consider "rich"  ie he actually "works" for a living and is paid pro rata.The numbers may look to a RW that he is a "rich" guy so her considerations were based on that impression.
   The thread has expanded on the overall situation-- I am pleased to say more information shows her in a better light for the OP-- that was always my thoughts that in talking with her would clarify and that acting prematurely was not going to be on the OP best interests-- either way!!
    I did mention earlier that the forum should take a bow over this thread-- stayed on topic,mostly avoided too many derogatory comments( about the subject and the OP) ,raised issues and thoughts and generally has been an excellent  "think" piece for mot only the OP-- but others now and in the future.
   Of course-- now comes the really interesting part for the OP-- best of luck !!

[Larry1]

  The thread has expanded on the overall situation-- I am pleased to say more information shows her in a better light for the OP

I don't suppose you are referring to the latest information dump we received in the thread, in Paulie's reply #208:

Whether she is gold digger or not has not been determined by me just yet.  I DID see a few issues early on:
1) When I flew her to New York, she insisted on my bringing her daughter to New York from Miami.  I did so because I wanted her to make her happy.
2) When I was in New York, she asked me to buy her an unlocked iPhone at a cost of $800.  I said no because I felt it was out of line for her to ask, especially that she has her own money. 
3) In December I flew her to meet in Los Angeles.  Before I did, she asked me to bring her a small xmas tree for Russian Xmas.   I found one, ONLY ONE because the xmas holiday was practically over.  She gave me a difficult time with it because she wanted something better.
4) On a trip to a mall, she walked into a store, picked up a piece of costume jewelry and said "buy me this" without even asking the word please OR 'would you buy this for me?' 
5) On another occasion in Los Angeles, she wanted to go to breakfast and after three attempts to find a place suitable to her, I gave up.   
6) I ALSO flew her daughter to Los Angeles - this trip I was unhappy about because each time we were together, Miami, New York AND THEN Los Angeles, her daughter was present.  What we needed was ALONE time.  But I felt for her because she does not see her daughter often. 
 

I would say this information puts her in an even worse light than it seemed at first.

[Patagonie]

Yes Jay you are right. The amount given is FAR from the one really availabe, a concept totally alien for a FSU women. Add to this that a lot don't pay any rent. It is why i always say : never tell about any NUMERALS. It makes NO sense.
I know that many guys, many, want to show some photos (generally their houses and their cars), this is never innocent from them. There is always a non avowed wish to be important, to display their proud (bad located). As Gator said " Leading with your money such as simply showing photos of your house and Mercedes Benz will corrupt women on the fence." this is a crime. 1/ because only the rich or the good average people in FSU get a car and 2/ when i liked a women friendly (no spark) i was given her some informations about this shit (showing house and cars) explaining them that in the west means nothing : a guy can borrrow 100% and the car can come from the company or be paid by a monthly allowance which means no property at all.
Some looked at me gratefully after few seconds of astonishment.

It is why even with clothes i tried to use less branded clothes during 2011 summer.
See my posts : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=13384.25

[Paulie]

Hi everyone,

Once again, thank you for your continued support and comments, especially the last several posts. 

As an update, I just want to say that I am less conflicted than when I started out here. 

I spent the day with my girlfriend and celebrated March 8th women's day with her.  We drove to a nice hotel for afternoon tea and spend many hours talking (as we usually do).  We then headed to Zuma (great sushi that you can also get when in Las Vegas) and during that time the conversation turned once again to her need for "security."

For the most part we've been avoiding the discussion about financial matters.  Much of the conversation has focused on the emotional aspects of our relationship, and life in a general way.  I have to say she is a very intelligent and loving person and unlike any woman I have met. 

While having dinner, the conversation barely touched on this security issue.  Without exactly saying it, I knew she was referring to wanting a piece of real estate, specifically an apartment in her name.  I then said "I am not going to be doing that."  Then I thought to myself, "I am going to be a gentleman and not ruin her March 8th women's day celebration."  So, the conversation drifted to some other mundane issue.

I think this security issue will be a deal killer for anything to happen in the short-term.  She will have to come to terms with the fact that if she wants to be with me, that I am not going to be her sponsor, sugar daddy or whatever name you want to call it. 

I AM willing to support her financially until she gets her business off the ground in the US.  She and I did discuss the possibility of her 1) keeping her business running in Istanbul while she moves to the US.  In my estimation she might just have six months to one year to transition away from that to a business in the US.  2) Or, she can stay in Istanbul until March 2014, when her daughter graduates. 

Either way, I am not buying anyone a piece of real estate for cash (not even myself) and especially not in her name alone.  I am willing to talk about and negotiate that the both of us (when there is much more trust and only when/if she comes to the US) put up an equal amount of money to buy real estate and put it in our names jointly.  In my estimation I think this is fair.  There will also have to be a document that spells out that we each get a return of capital and profits (if any) back to our respective estates should something happen.  I am not interested in enriching her daughter. 

I am also not opposed to building something with her should we marry.  If that happens, then of course a trust would state that she would be entitled to it should I die.  I would be too should she die.  I would want a proper split of the asset amongst our children.  Nothing out of the ordinary. 

But alas, I sense she does not have a clue about REAL financial security and that her money sense is different than mine.   I DID mention the concept of my being a "fiscal conservative" and after explaining it to her I realize we need more discussion so she understands better that I don't relinquish my money for the sake of someone's security needs. 

As I said earlier "love can be blissful, but without a financial plan, it can be sorrowful."  I am not interested in sorrow...I've had enough of that in my life. 

BUT, all of the above is conjecture because more than ever I need to better understand her true character more.  I am trying to gauge her true intentions.  At this minute I believe her intentions are real and true.  I also know that she believes that a man should take care of her.  To me, this is old-fashioned and similar in the way my grandfather took care of my grandmother.  But, I do not live in the days when my grandparents took care of each other in their respective roles. 

Again thanks! And more to follow. 

Best,

Paul




 

[BillyB]

Without exactly saying it, I knew she was referring to wanting a piece of real estate, specifically an apartment in her name.  I then said "I am not going to be doing that." 

Asking for something as expensive as real estate is no light matter. After been given a "no" for an answer she asked for it a second time. She really wants this. If you two get married, something has to give and the one that gives in this matter is not going to enter the marriage happy.


Whatever you do together in marriage should have both your names on it real estate or business. That's what partners do.


Paulie, I don't know if you mentioned anything on this but can you take a few months and live with your girlfriend in Turkey? Before making a major decision on marriage, it might be wise to live together for an extended period of time so you two may learn if you can or can't tolerate each other. See if the bond gets stronger or weaker. One thing many men in this endeavor doesn't have is time. If you have time, use that to your benefit.

[Paulie]

Asking for something as expensive as real estate is no light matter. After been given a "no" for an answer she asked for it a second time. She really wants this. If you two get married, something has to give and the one that gives in this matter is not going to enter the marriage happy.

Whatever you do together in marriage should have both your names on it real estate or business. That's what partners do.

Paulie, I don't know if you mentioned anything on this but can you take a few months and live with your girlfriend in Turkey? Before making a major decision on marriage, it might be wise to live together for an extended period of time so you two may learn if you can or can't tolerate each other. See if the bond gets stronger or weaker. One thing many men in this endeavor doesn't have is time. If you have time, use that to your benefit.

Hi Billy,

My girlfriend will have to adjust her thinking if she really wants to be together with me.  I don't think any man would give her the type of arrangement she thinks she needs for security.  If she really wants to be with me, then she will find a way through this with me.  But it won't be with me buying/gifting her a piece of real estate. 

I think your idea of staying in Turkey for several months would make sense if I did not have to take care of business matters in the States.  She is coming to the US for two months in the summer.  She will live with me and I think this is best because it will give her a sense of how life will be.  She can also begin to make connections.  In fact, I lined up one good potential source of information for her.  So, we will see where this will go.

Thank you for your last post.

Best wishes,

Paul

[Paulie]

Paulie,
I commend your attitude as we discuss your relationship at RWD.   First, you have shown a rare degree of candor, not hiding anything that would reflect badly on you or her.  Second, your responses to criticism  have been balanced and not defensive nor argumentative.   Third, your deliberation is very thorough, and is based on analysis rather than emotion.   In summary, I have a feeling that whatever you decide will be best.
 
A few of my opinions as you continue your deliberations:
 
1.  You can not buy love.   You have been successful in business.  That alone gives you the financial security and stability that RW crave.   If she feels that she can trust you to take care of her (to put her first), your stability alone should negate her need for upfront money and a $5,000 monthly allowance.  Without such trust, you will waste the upfront money and large allowance (she will save it for the day she runs away).
 
2.   RW are natural skeptics.   Especially women in their 40s who have experienced much turmoil, both economic and relationship.   They have known many RM who played with their feelings, promising much and delivering little.   Experienced RW do not start out giving a man the benefit of the doubt.  They give little credence to words.   They look for clues.    What makes a RW believe that you will place her first?  Little things. 
 
3.  Building trust.  What are the little things that build trust?   Above all, do not come across as "greedy," which is Russian translation for stingy.  Thus,  quickly concede to any and all small requests.  Yet stand your ground on big ticket items.
 
The same as you I have been successful and I consider myself generous.  Although I may take a RW traveling to an exotic land or just to a fine restaurant, they realize that I too am enjoying the experience so this is not placing them first.   To buy an expensive gift is not the answer either. 
 
My wife has remarked about some little events that helped  her believe in me.   As one example, on one trip she was cold.  Even though we would miss some sightseeing, I cancelled our plans and made it a mission to buy her a pair of gloves.  Finding a store was not easy yet I did, and I showed patience and concern as I helped her select a pair.   It sounds so little, but to her it was big because I put her first.  Attentiveness is the word.
 
4.  Is it even possible with your woman?   I never spent much time with women as demanding as yours.  Is this her true nature?   Did you do anything that moved you from the category of "Interesting man who may be Mr. Right"   to  "Another patsy to milk who will pay for my visits with my daughter, and maybe even a mule for America?"   Only you know.  Hint:  Leading with your money such as simply showing photos of your house and Mercedes Benz will corrupt women on the fence.   If you did nothing to deserve being treated as a patsy, I assert she is hopeless. 
 
5.  If you decide to continue the relationship, do not pursue a fiancee visa now.    If you marry, I guarantee her adjustment and assimilation will create much stress for her, which she will give to you.  She will be worse than what you have already seen.   And you say you have a heart condition!!!!!!    Instead of marriage, continue to date and let trust build.  Meanwhile, it is rather nice to have a beautiful and interesting RW girlfriend.  A girlfriend is much less expensive than a wife.
 
6.  The absence of RW posters at RWD speaks volumes. Did you notice that when starting this thread, RW members explained that there may be merit in your woman's demands?   Have you noticed their absence ever since you revealed details of how this woman was treating you.  Do not ignore that.

I re-read your post and thank you for taking the time to write such a comprehensive response.  I DO appreciate your comments about my candor, and the way I am handling things.  I am a very rational person and have been doing my best to keep my emotions from running the show so to speak.

#1:  You are right in that she is not seeing the stability I offer and that it should negate her fears.  This is something I am thinking about now.
#2:  My girlfriend has been through a rough marriage and thus she is dealing with overall trust issues.  While I understand this, it should not reflect on who I am as a person.  I am not the ex-husband and will not allow myself to pay for the consequences of that failed marriage.  This is not just indigenous to RW, it is universal. 
#3:  Understood.  In fact I have stood my ground and I did in fact recently buy a new camcorder although she did not ask for it.  She told me hers was not working and she uses it to tape record the children she teaches.  She did in fact thank me and was quite appreciative, as well as surprised. 
#4: I guess I have a high tolerance level for demanding women.  They have been in my life before.  However, she is toning down her demands.  I think she knows she won't get anywhere with me if she continues these demands.  I am also looking for signs to determine if this is a temporary condition and if it will rear its ugly head at some later date. 
#5:  Point well taken.  I have slowed it down.  No visas of any sort at this moment.
#6:  Can you please explain this in more detail as to why those RW who stopped posting?  What did this signify?

Best wishes,

Paul

[Doll]

Can you please explain this in more detail as to why those RW who stopped posting?  What did this signify?

Because (after you posted your recent "details") almost everything is clear to us. So, RW are either lazy))) to write more or they are quiet because your gf is their (our) countrymate.
You read our posts then ask same questions over and over.
"Clear" means "clear with both of you"
 

[Doll]

#4: I guess I have a high tolerance level for demanding women.

Sure. High tolerance when you offer her $5,000 a month?
Б-гг

[Doll]

Ok, one more time.
Paulie, this woman is not stupid- she understands (mostly) what risk her moving with you to the US means when you cover everything you have now by the prenup.
Should you split, she will have nothing.
On the other hand, this "appartment on her name only" is not real or not so much real. It was a "nice try" seasoned with sweet lie about "all RW are taken care like this". They are not ( we wish))).
 
  Her daughter is on what visa in the US?

[Doll]

What makes a RW believe that you will place her first? 

First before whom? Or what?

[BillyB]

#6:  Can you please explain this in more detail as to why those RW who stopped posting?  What did this signify?

It's not only important to pay attention to what people write but what they don't write. I don't know if you read anything about my story but I wrote and married my wife when she was very young. Nothing illegal but it did go past some people's, moral compass, mostly westerners. Some rw mentioned with my wife's youth and beauty, they would not consider a man 22 years older. After I married, zero RW complained. My wife has exceptional beauty and no bad habits so she has a lot of choices in men but she picked me as her husband. When a woman like that chooses a man, it says a lot about the man. Some westerners, not paying attention to what is not written by RW, continue to have ill will against me.


I'm not going to speak for gator but here's what #6 means to me. A good percentage of RW feels your gf's demands have merit. She is a woman that has talent, beauty, a business, and  much better than average success so she is entitled to a much better than average man that provides a much better than average life for her.


After posting bad behavior of your gf, those RW stopped posting your gf deserved what she's asking for. People with that behavior doesn't deserve much. Also with that behavior it may be a reflection on how she thinks of you. Maybe your gf wouldn't have exhibited that behavior with a richer/more important man.


We all have our favorites. A woman may not give a bum a second look on street. She may talk to the average guy but not give him a first date. She may date an above average guy but not give him her best treatment but her ideal guy gets her best behavior. Where do you think you fit in? Although she may ultimately bend to your will but if you are less than her ideal man entering marriage, you may be treated as less throughout marriage.

[Misha]

Paul, I do wonder who you are trying to convince that you are not a pushover: us or yourself. From what you have written, it is clear that you do not say yes to everything, but you say yes to most things. I would wager that she knows that if she asks for twice as much that she will get precisely what she wants 

[Paulie]

Paul, I do wonder who you are trying to convince that you are not a pushover: us or yourself. From what you have written, it is clear that you do not say yes to everything, but you say yes to most things. I would wager that she knows that if she asks for twice as much that she will get precisely what she wants 

Oh, I wouldn't make a bet on that one.