She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...

[Saltheart]

This is pretty interesting.


In principle, I don't have a problem with her worrying about security.  I think it would be a little strange for an educated, emotionally intelligent, adult woman not to.  I am very curious however how she conducted herself during this discussion.  That can be telling.  Also, how did 100k ever come up?  If she was a digger, or intelligent, I hunk she would handle that differently and seek higher. 


What I'm seeing is safety and security.  She needs this due to her psychology.  We're not all wired the same...we have different fears, needs, etc., and we all process things differently too.


You have a right not to take on her particular issues but that's a choice for decision you'll have to ponder.  Who knows, maybe your issues fit with hers.  They do for me and my wife.


Please, for the love of god, get a pre-nup.  Also, her salary doesn't have to be a Salary, it can be her alimony payment paid up front.  This makes a pre-nup stronger btw in the eyes of the law.  She can do what she likes with the money...encourage her to invest it.  If you're still married in 20 years, remove the pre-nup.


Btw - paying in advance isn't so bad... You will pay for it anyway and on worse terms later. 


My wife had some security issues too...talking pre-nup was difficult for both of us as it hit both of our fears/insecurities - I was glad for it however as it really helped me understand her much better.  My attorney loved our pre-nup and hers liked it and thought it was pretty fair to her - my wife's an attorney btw.


Paulie - you seem like a bright and mature guy.  If you think she really feels like the one (shouldn't it feel that way?) than its worth working on this and you'll know though the process of it whether or not she is who you think she is.  If the love isn't strong - pass.


For the love of god, don't play any games/tricks on her, or test her, or set her up.  You're an adult.  Find out if she is too.


-Salty


Ps - after our pre-nup, many fears were alleviated and soothed for both of us.  While my marriage/relationship is still young (2years) - I couldn't imagine a more compatible, kind and loving wife than the one who sometimes scared the shit out of me early on - not because she is scary, but due to my own issues.  Thank god I I didn't  let my stuff get in the way and I had to trust.  Build the trust man but don't try and fit a square peg in a round hole....this thing either fits and fits well on almost every level, or it doesn't.  Know thyself.

[Jumper]

Hmmm, I beg to differ and that was my point. I'd just put some quotation marks around "business".

Yes, I knew it was..
I alluded to it as well,
but dint want to go into the generic name *Natasha*in Turkey,because there are other legitmate possibilities that could exist.
 
To me the main thing was anyone looking to immediately be subsidized for their loss in income upon marriage , would raise most anyones eyebrow in general.
 
The background being what it is, would make most raise both , and look a lot more closely.
 
Mostly i'm confused if she has a Turkish passport,and sems tio travel freely,  why not just a continuing relationship , until it built into enough trust for both parties.
 

[Paulie]

Hi,

This is unbelievable!  The outpouring of support on this site is incredible.  ALL of you have moved me in so many ways, even those who had some sometimes outrageous comments.  :-)

I need to read all of these posts over again and wish to respond to each and every one of you.  I DO appreciate the time, energy and thought each of you put into your responses. 

Perhaps you should know that I do love this woman very much.  She is a strong minded woman and I like that in her.  She is bright, funny, loving,  thoughtful, genuine, curious and much more.  But she is also VERY independent, dominant (I am too), and stubborn too.  Therein lies the conundrum.   

The other side of love is the financial side of a relationship.  When I met and married earlier in my life, we started with nothing and worked together.  We built a life from there.  That was long ago and as it happens we both changed. 

I have learned quickly, that East-West relationships ARE INDEED different culturally and thus characteristically.  Expectations are also different for many reasons:  age, financial status, distance, in her situation - the need to give up one life to take on another, in mine - the willingness to support her needs 100%.  (Please understand that as an older gentleman, and my upbringing, I have always taken care of the women in my life...so nothing new here.)  What is new is the request for a 'piece of real-estate' in her name and for cash.  I will not do that, period. 

For those of you who are married, I imagine you have everything in joint names - cash, housing, retirement plans, etc.  That IS how it should be.  But my belief is that both should work towards that in the partnership of marriage.  If there will be any asset accumulation, it will be jointly.  She has a condo in Ukraine and will need to sell it.  I offered to match her cash and that we would buy a place together, jointly.  It is a starting point.  From there, anything is possible. 

I do have to protect what I've built for sure.  Therefore there was never a question that I WILL get an 'airtight' pre nup agreement.  She knows this.  I am willing to be open and flexible.  However, this will only occur after we spend a considerable amount of time getting to a deep level of trust. 

And then together we can build a new financial foundation of which she would be entitled, based on US law, to 50% should a divorce occur.  I would also give her 100% of the new foundation we built should I die.  I do not however envision assets created prior to the relationship to be part of a new relationship.  That belongs to my children.  I am not alone in this thinking. 

Many have said to 1) slow down, 2) close the wallet.  I think #1 is a good direction.  As for #2, I will continue to offer to bring her here and travel to her.  I will not shell out money to pay for her current lifestyle.   

I did not know what I was getting into when I decided to seek a woman from the FSU.  (By the way - what is OP?)  I now know (and thankful for this site), that there are many questions needing answers.  Frank discussions will be necessary.   

I am not rich, but I do live comfortably.  I worked hard to get there.  I will tell you that 18 years ago I was flat broke.  Someone on this post used the word "tough" and applied it to the tough life of EW and that I should experience it too.  I grew up under very tough conditions, so I CAN relate. 

What I can't relate to is someone asking for something unreasonable and especially because of a lack of trust.  If that is the situation, then more trust building needs to occur.  Lastly, marriage is the coming together of two people with all of life's risks included.  That applies to my far away girlfriend or a local girlfriend if I had one.  Risk is not mitigated in life...there are no guarantees for anyone. 

Also, I am not going to be someone's sugar daddy.  I will be generous, but not to the point where is harms me financially or makes me feel I am being taken. 

My girlfriend has a skill set.  If I prefer that she not work, then it is my responsibility to care for her 100% all the time.  She does want to work because she has something to give to children.  I've seen it.  So, I am willing to support her for however long it takes for her to re-establish her success here in the US.  Maybe we will wait a period of time so we can spend 100% time together.  This is no different that what I would offer someone here in the US if I loved her that much. 

Again, thank you all and I am enjoying this site and the posts.  I hope to contribute from my experiences as time goes on.

Best wishes,

Paul

[Saltheart]

Paul,


I think you've worked this out on your side of the fence admirably. It's great to get some feedback from others but you're the one who ultimately has to row the boat.


Point for point I agree with you.  It's balanced, rational, kind and fair.


Good stuff.


-Salty

[Jumper]

She does want to work because she has something to give to children.  I've seen it.  So, I am willing to support her for however long it takes for her to re-establish her success here in the US.  Maybe we will wait a period of time so we can spend 100% time together.  This is no different that what I would offer someone here in the US if I loved her that much.

 
There you go, and it was why I wondered why she wasnt more interested in whether you were willing to help in that regard, than the out front cash/condo/ apt.

There is no rush,
good luck!!

[JayH]

Paul,


I think you've worked this out on your side of the fence admirably. It's great to get some feedback from others but you're the one who ultimately has to row the boat.


Point for point I agree with you.  It's balanced, rational, kind and fair.


Good stuff.


-Salty

Agreed.


It does make me wonder what kind of arrangements guys (& girls) do have in domestic and life arrangements.How do you manage finances.
The thing that struck me here is that in effect--the OP was floating a $1000 a week-- I dont think that is excessive.So-- what is required to live on?

[JayH]

Paul,

OP = Original Poster or original post in thread. Lazy way of referring to you--Paul!!

Re your story-- many will be interested to hear how you first made contact,how it evolved to where you are now etc. Forum is built on learning from others experiences and even the opinions that are not the same !!

This particular thread is very relevant to others and as more information has been added it has changed many initial thoughts I had on the potential negatives.

[Paulie]

Jay,

You (and others) have been an inspiration in my thinking.  In situations like this, one can't operate alone in the decision process.  There are too many variables in East-West relationships. 

I will write more about how I met my girlfriend, and how we progressed to this stage.   

Thanks for explaining OP. 

Best,

Paul

[Paulie]

Salty,  Thanks for your kind and thoughtful response.  I think month to month is better than paying upfront.  She has one year in helping her daughter.  I also might push her eventual move here until after her daughter graduates.   This way she can continue supporting her daughter while we get better acquainted.  Plus, my (adult) kids would not be happy with that if they knew. 

Jay, When I was married to my wife, I gave her $3,000 a month to run the household.  This covered groceries (sometimes it was paid out of the household account) and mostly was for her personal use and sometimes to buy clothes for our son.  I didn't even bother to ask her where it went.  It was a variable I lived with. 

Thanks again!

Paul

[Saltheart]

Paul, I agree although you might not have understood my arrangement.


We did a pre-nup which separated established assets, my biz was off-limits and anything we buy jointly is split e.g., house.


She waived alimony in lieu of a monthly payment we established.  It's on auto-pay weekly infact and I don't even look at it.  It's substantially less than what you put in your household account with your first wife although I do the same amount now anyway as that's wats required roughly to buy groceries, small household items, etc...if we need/anticipate more ill just transfer over a large chunk to the joint account.  She has on numerous occasions offered to use part or all of her "alimony" account to help buy things for our new house, (I put her on title)  etc.  I have never taken her up on this of course but its very sweet of her.


This was a bit necessary for me at first as I was a little trigger shy having just given my ex-wife almost a mil in our divorce.  The pre-nup ends in 20 years...If my marriage is strong and healthy in ten years ill probably tear it up sooner.


There are some more details but this should suffice.  It's worked out really well for both of us.  It should be noted she was a pretty successful attorney and made a decent income if 60-70k rubles a month (not from Moscow) plus she had about another 100k in assets from her home, etc. 


We didn't address much of this until about 5-6 months of living together before we got married.  We have a child now and I'm pretty convinced I have about the coolest wife in the world.


Anyway, good luck man.

[Doll]

Jay, When I was married to my wife, I gave her $3,000 a month to run the household.  This covered groceries (sometimes it was paid out of the household account) and mostly was for her personal use and sometimes to buy clothes for our son.  I didn't even bother to ask her where it went.  It was a variable I lived with. 

 Paul

She didn't work? Sorry if I missed it in your posts.
You "gave" her this money. Didn't you have everything "joint" as you said youself?
Just asking.
As for the very subject, there is something wrong in your girlfriend approach (though I would like to have this kind of "security" myself)))
And no- not everyone who is married (here) has everything "joint".
The house is on my husband's name, retirement is his (not "joint").
 In case of divorce I will have almost nothing.
This is the reality of many R-A marriages.
Your woman knows what she is asking for, but again- it is too much.

[pitbull]

For those of you who are married, I imagine you have everything in joint names - cash, housing, retirement plans, etc.  That IS how it should be.  But my belief is that both should work towards that in the partnership of marriage. If there will be any asset accumulation, it will be jointly.  She has a condo in Ukraine and will need to sell it.  I offered to match her cash and that we would buy a place together, jointly.  It is a starting point.  From there, anything is possible. 

I do have to protect what I've built for sure.  Therefore there was never a question that I WILL get an 'airtight' pre nup agreement.  She knows this.  I am willing to be open and flexible.  However, this will only occur after we spend a considerable amount of time getting to a deep level of trust. 

And then together we can build a new financial foundation of which she would be entitled, based on US law, to 50% should a divorce occur.  I would also give her 100% of the new foundation we built should I die.  I do not however envision assets created prior to the relationship to be part of a new relationship.  That belongs to my children.  I am not alone in this thinking. 

What you've written is quite a wide swing from what you wrote first. So, you will have an iron-clad prenup to make sure your pre-marital assets are protected for your children? She however, not only needs to uproot her succseful life in Istanbul, lose her business and good income - she needs to provide 50% of financial foundation for your future marriage? And sell her most probably only pre-marital asset - a condo in Ukraine - to invest in a marriage with you and show you trust? Have you told her about these ideas? If yes, I'm not at all surprised that she wants some warranty - in this scenario she loses everything and depends fully on you and and whether she "earns your trust years down the road"?

You see, you are saying "I am willing to be open and flexible.  However, this will only occur after we spend a considerable amount of time getting to a deep level of trust." The difference is, she will need to lose everything NOW to be with you, she won't have time to "wait and see, if the deep level of trust develops after a considerable amount of time together". Who has trust issues here?
I would be really interested to hear this woman's side of the story 

[Doll]

Thank you, Pitbull! I saw this too in his post, was just lazy to write (what you've written)))))
Also "I am not rich" but before he was ready to give her 5,000 and more monthly.
This and buy her kondo.
Фантазер.

[Doll]

Paulie, actually her kondo in Ukraine should go to her daughter- just same way as you're going to do with your "premarital" property.
So, she can't sell it.

[Doll]

  Your woman knows what she is asking for, but again- it is too much.

NOT )))
(Yes, I am quoting myself and editing)))))

[BillyB]

I do have to protect what I've built for sure.  Therefore there was never a question that I WILL get an 'airtight' pre nup agreement.  She knows this.  I am willing to be open and flexible.  However, this will only occur after we spend a considerable amount of time getting to a deep level of trust. 

Your prenup should follow your state's guidelines in splitting assets earned within marriage based on how long your married. There is no "Airtight" prenup as you believe in these kind of marriages. You could still go through a nasty divorce with big attorney fees. A good lawyer will have your prenup thrown out for 2 reasons. 1) English is the woman's second language and she didn't understand what she signed and 2) She signed under duress. When she comes to America with the 90 day time limit to get married, trying to get adjusted to a new life, leaving everything she's ever known and quitting her job while daughter is in college,  she can claim she was pressured to sign the prenup given the options are going home with nothing and daughter not finishing her education.

[Paulie]

Also "I am not rich" but before he was ready to give her 5,000 and more monthly.
This and buy her kondo.
Фантазер.

Hi,  Let's not go off in the wrong direction.  I am going to offer her $5K a month.  This is equal to her take home pay NOW.  She will have legal documentation that states a period of time where that $5K would be paid to her if she decides to leave.   I think that is more than fair.   

Secondly, I did not say I would buy her a condo/apartment.  This is what SHE is asking for.  Please re-read my opening post.  I do not believe I should pay $5K a month AND buy a condo/apartment for cash to gain ANYONE'S trust.  That is the wrong way to start ANY relationship.

Lastly,  this is all just conversation so I can better understand what others have done.  Nothing has been 'etched in concrete.' 

Overall, I am aware of her needs for security and am trying to figure it out.  That is why I came here.  This is very risky for both concerned.  And as someone else reminded me - it is TOO SOON.  We've only known one another for 8 months.  This whole affair needs time. 

To date I have helped her financially by paying for her travel (expected that).  I have also given her money to help with her household and daughter's expenses (did not expect that). 

So, if there are any constructive ideas or thoughts, bring them on.  But to judge based on a misconception of what you are reading, or to make snide remarks about this or that deteriorates the purpose of my goal to seek understanding.   

[Belvis]

So, if there are any constructive ideas or thoughts, bring them on.  But to judge based on a misconception of what you are reading, or to make snide remarks about this or that deteriorates the purpose of my goal to seek understanding.   

I understand your  irritation. However you'll learn to have lot of tolerance, or more accurately thick skin, in dealing with your gal. FSUW at forum are pussycats as compared with what you may experience in real life. 

[Doll]

Let's not go off in the wrong direction

Ok, let's do it.
(Though I guess we can write what we think is right)

[Doll]

I understand your  irritation. However you'll learn to have lot of tolerance, or more accurately thick skin, in dealing with your gal. FSUW at forum are pussycats as compared with what you may experience in real life. 

Very true

[Doll]

As for "constructive ideas", Paulie, mine are
1) do not make her sell her kondo in Ukraine ( as it is her premarital property and you protect yours)
2)make your prenup fair for her
 
Or leave her alone.
This woman understands all (or most) her risks.

[Misha]

I have also given her money to help with her household and daughter's expenses (did not expect that).   

She earns $5,000 to $7,000 a month in Turkey, yet you are paying for household expenses?!? If I may ask, why would you feel compelled to do that?

[vwrw]

She earns $5,000 to $7,000 a month in Turkey, yet you are paying for household expenses?!? If I may ask, why would you feel compelled to do that?

Because he sensed that behavior was expected from the promising prospect.  Some women do not want to have equal responsibilities in the beckon bringing matters. They wants their men to be the providers, regardless of how much they earn themselves. They just cannot respect or admire the men who is incapable or reluctant to assume the provider role.

[Doll]

Because he sensed that behavior was expected from the promising prospect.  Some women do not want to have equal responsibilities in the beckon bringing matters. They wants their men to be the providers, regardless of how much they earn themselves. They just cannot respect or admire the men who is incapable or reluctant to assume the provider role.

OR some men want to show their financial abilities.
I don't think that a woman with $5,000 will expect a man to pay what he paid for.
OR she does not make this money.

[vwrw]

Because he sensed that behavior was expected from the promising prospect.  Some women do not want to have equal responsibilities in the beckon bringing matters. They wants their men to be the providers, regardless of how much they earn themselves. They just cannot respect or admire the men who is incapable or reluctant to assume the provider role.

One of my friends express it this way....only the men who can give birth to children are exempt from assuming the provider role in her views.