Re: She wants me to guarantee her security in the US before she comes...

[Larry1]

From my observation, and having had discussions with both many divorce lawyers and divorced women, in the absence of mental illness, a woman usually seeks divorce when she just gets tired of putting up with her husband's  cr@p and believes she has done everything to salvage her marriage.

In other words, nearly every woman who wants a divorce is in the right and her husband is in the wrong.  I'm happy you have finally made yourself clear. 

[calmissile]

If you worked so hard as to not being able to contribute in any way to the housework and I assume to taking care of your daughter, how were you going to take care of your child 50% of the time? Just curious, what was the plan?

If I had ever reached that point,  I obviously would have had to make changes to take care of her in the evenings when I worked.

Having my own business allowed me to take care of her needs during the day.  She was in pre-school and I often went there during the day and volunteered as one of the parental playground monitors.  I also took her to and from swimming lessons.  It was fairly easy to get away for brief periods.

There were several women interested in taking care of her after dinner in the evenings (either live-in or seperate).  I was always with her at dinnertime prior to going back to work.

To give you another perspective of my wifes behavior and jealousy..... here are two more examples.
1.  Out of love for me, my daughter would bring me a glass of orange juice in the morning while I was waking up.  Her mother was outraged and told her to stop doing it.
2.  Out of love for daddy, when I would come home for dinner and see my daughter, she would bring me the newspaper.  Her mothers response was "Our daughter is not a dog.  Get your own paper".

I would expect you to keep searching to find fault with me.  It seems you cannot accept that there are some evil women that men are justified divorcing.   Don't forget Karma.     

In fact once I gained custody, I did what I had to do to raise my daughter.
I made an album for you to puruse and see for yourself what her life was like.  I don't think this looks like an unhappy little girl.   All photos were taken when I was raising her alone.

http://s1143.beta.photobucket.com/user/calmissile/library/Michelle

[Boethius]

In other words, nearly every woman who wants a divorce is in the right and her husband is in the wrong.  I'm happy you have finally made yourself clear.

That is not what I posted.

[Boethius]

No offense to you, but your wife did not automatically turn into a feminist who wanted to destroy you.  From my observation, and having had discussions with both many divorce lawyers and divorced women, in the absence of mental illness, a woman usually seeks divorce when she just gets tired of putting up with her husband's  cr@p and believes she has done everything to salvage her marriage.   It is also my observation that once that decision is made, a woman rarely changes her mind.  Some put up with it until the kids are grown.

Well, no offense but the examples you have given have nothing to do with my ex wife's decision to get a divorce.  Since you are inferring something that you have no personal knowledge about, I will help you out.

She worked in an office of over 20 mostly single, feminist women.  I know this from conversations with them as well as comments from my wife before the divorce.  She was subjected to a constant barrage of feminist speak ( you don't  need a man for anything, men are evil, you should be strong and independent, etc.).  We often went to office parties as well as saw them when out dancing together.  They are the same women that would sleep with any man for some kind of benefit.  Even pretend to like someone to get free drinks and then wander away.  I am sure you understand the kind of women I am talking about.

The company she worked for had grown over the years and the owners decided it was time to create a new position to oversee all the gals working in the office.  The owners hired a MAN from Los Angeles that had a lot of experience with office workers to take over as manager.  Not only did the shit hit the fan in our relationship, but the other women in the office were in an uproar.  Bickering went on daily at her office.  Since she was one of the more senior employees she thought she was 'entitled' to the position even though she had no experience in managing people.

It finally reached a point where she came home from work and announced that she is not cooking for any man, she furthermore is not washing any mans clothes, etc.  She also let the housekeeping deteriorate to the point of it stinking from dirty dishes and rotting garbage for days on end.

You might ask, why did I not do the housework, cooking, and cleaning myself?  Because I was working 90 hrs/week in our business which was necessary at the time for it's survival.  In addition, she had made the environment so hostile it was better to back away from it rather than take the abuse.

There were many other clues that the source of her problem was not me.  Shortly after her 10th anniversary at work, she got fired for insubordination by the new manager.  That's about the same time the shit hit the fan in the relationship.  She was not going to be dominated by any man, at work or at home!  I never had the time or inclination to dominate her.  To me it was clearly something external that created the personality change.

You can continue to try and rationalize someone else's behavior to fit your agenda, but it often is meaningless.

The point of my post was not to rationalize behaviour, nor to speculate on the reasons for your divorce.  However, it is odd, is it not, that almost every man here who is divorced was not at fault?  No sirree, it was always the fault, in its entirety, of his ex wife.    The point of my post was, and is, that divorces are never one sided.  There is plenty of blame to go around, on both sides.  Explaining how a woman thinks when she makes the decision to divorce is not a rationalization.  Just a reality of how women think.


I suspect if your wife were giving her side of the story, it would be something like this - he doesn't appreciate me, I work and then have to come home and do all the housework, he is never home for me or our daughter, etc.  To all who misread my posts - please note, I am not saying this was the reason for cal's divorce, as I have no knowledge of the reasons.  I am merely stating that this is the "typical" type of response, based on my experience, I expect I would hear. 

As I posted previously, I have heard the above many times from wives divorcing businessmen who, by virtue of their work, are not around much.  Some wives learn to cope on their own.  Some were always independent.  Some pop in to see their husband at lunch a few times a month.  Some decide to work in his business as well.  And some begin to resent him, and the time he is away from the family, and decide, at some point, that they will not live in a particular manner anymore.  It is a story I have witnessed so often as to be cliche.


Your description of the reasons for the failure of your marriage are your perceptions.  My point was that the other side will inevitably have different perceptions, and often, different reasons.  Were you able to agree, you likely would not be divorced.

Custody, unfortunately, is usually the issue where spouses tend to go for the jugular, to the detriment of the children, and it is either  a way to "get back" at the spouse,

Yes and I expect that you would rationalize and defend the woman's point of view even in those cases.

Where did I defend it?  No, I do not believe fathers are dispensable, and I also believe using children as weapons is wrong.  That doesn't mean I don't understand the dynamics of why it occurs.

[calmissile]

Bo, I concede!  You have worn me down again.  There is no sense trying to carry on an argument with a lawyer.  Your word twisting and addressing only parts of a response is typical and clever.

I had not even noticed until this morning that you diverted the flow of my responses and addressed only your chosen parts to respond it.  Good work.  I congratulate you on your lawyering skills.

As far as your comment that your husband is not a submisive man..........  Ha Ha!
You could talk and argue him into submision just to keep from listening to you any more.   

As usual, I will give you the last word.

[BillyB]

it is odd, is it not, that almost every man here who is divorced was not at fault?  No sirree, it was always the fault, in its entirety, of his ex wife.   

Reread what Larry quoted. From your observation and discussions with divorce women you come to the conclusion women divorce men because they are tired of the men's crap. Why do you believe what divorced women have to say and don't believe what divorced men have to say? Do you have ambitions to be a family court judge? You may fit right in.

[Daveman]

Reread what Larry quoted. From your observation and discussions with divorce women you come to the conclusion women divorce men because they are tired of the men's crap. Why do you believe what divorced women have to say and don't believe what divorced men have to say? Do you have ambitions to be a family court judge? You may fit right in.

She didn't state that she sides with the women in the divorce proceedings, but rather that of those women who choose to initiate divorce, "tired of his crap" is a common theme (a common theme for the men as well, no? .. so perhaps "crap" is an ambiguous, non gender specific, yet fundamental principle of divorce.)  From what I gathered, her comments are related to the "two sides to every story" postulate... nothing more nor less.  I agree with that.

[jone]

You know?

Almost every FSUW that I interacted with claimed that one of the top priorities for her future husband was that he had a sense of humor.  And this board is supposed to be for entertainment.

SO, where is that sense of humor and when can I get some?  (A sense of humor, I mean.)

[Faux Pas]

Reread what Larry quoted. From your observation and discussions with divorce women you come to the conclusion women divorce men because they are tired of the men's crap. Why do you believe what divorced women have to say and don't believe what divorced men have to say? Do you have ambitions to be a family court judge? You may fit right in.

That is not what she said at all. Why is it difficult for you to believe that anyway? A woman gets tired of the mans crap and stays happily married? What she said was, there is his side, her side and the truth lies somewhere in the middle. She was also correct in stating that most all of the described divorces on this forum and those like it being told by the man is the always the woman's fault. Can you dispute that?

[Misha]

She didn't state that she sides with the women in the divorce proceedings, but rather that of those women who choose to initiate divorce, "tired of his crap" is a common theme

Aren't 90% or so of divorces in the United States now initiated by woman according to the stats?

[Boethius]

Bo, I concede!  You have worn me down again.  There is no sense trying to carry on an argument with a lawyer.  Your word twisting and addressing only parts of a response is typical and clever.

I had not even noticed until this morning that you diverted the flow of my responses and addressed only your chosen parts to respond it.  Good work.  I congratulate you on your lawyering skills.

As far as your comment that your husband is not a submisive man..........  Ha Ha!
You could talk and argue him into submision just to keep from listening to you any more.   

As usual, I will give you the last word.

Was this the typical response to disagreement with your wife?


Really, cal, I was not attempting to pry into your marriage, which is why I largely ignored your explanation.  As for the comments on lawyers, what did you expect me to respond with?

The point is that in disagreement, individuals have their own perspectives or views.  If they wish to work productively, they will listen to the other side and try to understand that person's perspective.  Or, they can become entrenched in their own positions, which carries through all the way to divorce.  They may never understand the other's position.

[LiveFromUkraine]

 Putting all the blame on one party, in a failed relationship,  is ignorant and accomplishes nothing.  People would be better off realizing their mistakes so they can fix it prior to getting into a new relationship.

[BillyB]

"tired of his crap" is a common theme (a common theme for the men as well, no? ..

Exactly.


Read again what Larry quoted. Boethius observation and after talking with attorneys and divorce women, in the absence of mental illness, a woman divorces her husband because she's tired of his crap and done everything to salvage the marriage.


Later she states it odd for all divorce men say it the woman's fault. Why is it odd? Boethius believes it counters the truth of what the women says.


Every family court judge hears the same thing from both sides in divorce court almost every time since an amicable divorce didn't happen. Hooefully they aren't bias


If it's true for one side, shouldn't it be true for the other? If it's odd for all divorced men to state their wife is bad, shouldn't it be odd for all divorced women to state their man is bad?


In the end it shouldn't matter if a person is at fault for a divorce. That should not matter in splitting their assets fairly. If a guy or gal is an azzhole and commited adultry, should the government come in and take all their possessions? I've worked with people who gave me crap. Whether or not in real life or marriage they are an angel or devil, they are entitled to everything they earned.

[calmissile]

Billy, your using way too much logic here.       

[Boethius]

There is little logic in misrepresenting what I posted.  Daveman and Faux Pas read correctly.

[Muzh]

 

[Muzh]

Pat,
Don't expect the feminists (and men wearing panties) to make respectful comments.

Bo is an exception.  Due to her intellect and lawyer training, she can send the same message without the disrespectful languge.  She is very skilled at arguing, whatever side she chooses to take.   

Nice to know you are so concerned about underwear. Let me ask you. Do you buy Depends^TM where you are or do you bring them by the gross from the US?

[GQBlues]

...http://s1143.beta.photobucket.com/user/calmissile/library/Michelle

Holy Psyth Batman!

The dude's already got white hair back when the Brady Bunch was the No. 1 show and the Farrah Fawcett hairdo was happening hairstyle!

It's 2013 now and he's out looking for a 30-year old wife?!? LOL! He better file a pre-nup!

***packing KFC on your camping trip, man? TFF!****

[jone]

.

[Ade]

Calmissile,

I looked at your pictures.  They are beautiful.  They show the love you gave that daughter of yours.  You were given a great gift to be her father.  You will be a positive influence in anyone's life. 

It is a wonderful blessing to have a child.  I hope that everyone gets such an experience.

And yet, one still has to wonder why his wife hated him so to the point that even when terminally ill she would have preferred someone else to raise their daughter. Then there are the others we know about including his ex fiancée in Ukraine... I guess they all became raving fem-nazis overnight. From his drunken posts and other info, I'd say not...

[jone]

.

[Paulie]

So, it has been more than a week since my last post.  I took some time to think through and reflect on this whole sordid affair. 

Candidly, I am still in touch with Ms. Istanbul.  She knows I am done playing into her situation and thus the relationship has cooled off.   So, in essence, it is fading fast because I am not going to sponsor her transition here based on her view of how it should go.  I am now moving on. 

Now comes the part where I need to understand something:  Just what is it that I should expect to do financially when I bring over an RW to the US?  After all, she won't have a job, (likely) won't have any assets and will be a foreigner in a foreign country. 

I would like to know just what the folks here have done as they met, moved and married their RW.  How do you take care of her financially? 

Again, I ask the above because in my past:  I have always been the 'breadwinner" in the family and the women I married did not have to work.  When I divorced, I followed the guidelines of the respective courts where assets were divided as community property.   

As a side note, I was just in Las Vegas last week and met with my best friend from childhood.  We talked about my situation.  He married an American woman almost 5 years ago.  They both work and she had little to no assets when they married.  When they were dating, he said he knew in a short time period that if he married her, he would be willing to put her name on his assets, thus giving her 50% share in what he owns.  She contributes to their household, they have a decent size 401K and she told me she married for his love, not his money.   Sounds simple enough to me. 

If you recall, Ms. Istanbul would have to shutter her business or try to run it in Turkey from the US.  As I understand it, she could not work in the US immediately.  (I would not want her to work for 6 to 12 months, anyway.)  Her main concern:  should I decide things are not working out, she would be 'left in the street.'  And my concern:  I am not interested in putting my assets at risk,  as I am not interested in losing 50% under any circumstances.  I am willing to support her through my income stream.  I am not willing to, nor will I buy an apartment/house/condo and put it into her name. 

For a minute, let's forget Ms. Istanbul and focus on someone else.  What security is appropriate, if any, should I move an RW to the US?  What kind of protection is the 'right thing to do?"  If I married an American woman, and should we divorce, she would have skills where she could obtain a job.  An RW does not have the ability to find work given language barriers, legal considerations, etc.  Isn't this correct? 

In the case of an RW, it is possible that I would be ordered by the court to pay temporary alimony while she searches for a job or considers a move back to her country. 

OK, so a pre-nuptial is key here.  Question is:  What amount is appropriate in a divorce settlement?  What would the courts do as they look at a RW who has nowhere to go?  I am just curious if anyone addressed this issue or dealt with this in a divorce?  (Not that I would want a divorce – been there, done that.  But one never knows.) 

[JayH]

Paul - you are thinking backwards here .Put No1 priority on making yourself happy . Arrange a pre-nup that is FAIR to her in the circumstance she could find herself in. In that process you are doing yourself a favour.
All the rest is just side issue BS( yes-- in capitals)
Sharing your life costs-- and not only money-- so get on with it!!

[Doll]

I came here 11 years ago with my younger son (he was 8 yo, now he is 19).
Did I understand how insecure I was? Not right away, but soon I did realize. I totally depended on my husband. Yes, our marriage got through some "bumps", the bumps are still there)).
  In case of divorce I was to live on my own, which is VERY hard in a foreign country (but possible).
I have almost no access to my husband's assets- he was and still is very  precautious   what comes to his money (if it is the right word).
 To be fair, in this situation he let me have my own account and didn't demand to contribute a lot in the "household".
I had to live with my "eyes open"))).
At some point we shared our saving account, also, I started saving for the child.
By now the boy (my son) is in USAF making decent money.
Am I still insecure? Yes, but not that bad.
 

[Paulie]

Paul - you are thinking backwards here .Put No1 priority on making yourself happy . Arrange a pre-nup that is FAIR to her in the circumstance she could find herself in. In that process you are doing yourself a favor.
All the rest is just side issue BS( yes-- in capitals)
Sharing your life costs-- and not only money-- so get on with it!!

Jay, I am not sure if I am thinking backwards per se; maybe it is more that I am here thinking “out loud.”  My #1 priority IS to be happy.  What has happened here is that Ms. Istanbul has made our being together a tough road because she has created a precondition relative to wanting a kind of security that I never heard of - for her beloved to BUY her a piece of real estate for cash, in her name and before she considers anything else.  I would also have to be responsible for potentially picking up the loss of her income for whatever time period until she resituates in the US.  It is not a request or an idea to be discussed, it has become the focal point of moving the relationship forward.  It has caused our relationship to be 'stuck in the mud' so to speak. 

I agree with you, a pre-nuptial that is FAIR (as you wrote) to the potential circumstances she could find herself in is appropriate.  I think that IS fair.  It is based on doing what is right.  And it can be handled from my income stream for a period of time should the relationship end.  This makes perfect sense.  Will she go for it?  I tried explaining it to her and she is stuck on my transferring some of my assets to her as a pre-condition.  That will not happen. 

And yes, you and I are on the same page about sharing one's life costs.  I've done this all my life and feel quite comfortable with it.  Problem is that Ms. Istanbul had a difficult last relationship and because of her ‘distrust’ she wants her next man to pay the price for her ex-husband's financial failures.  His financial failures resulted in her having to support herself 100% and she feels very stressed about it.  She wants someone to come rescue her from her burden.  Is that a way to start and have a new relationship?  I don’t think so.  (She is also somewhat stuck in the past and often focuses on the good times –financially and otherwise - she had with her ex.  This in and of itself is not a healthy way to move forward.) 

Lastly, Ms. Istanbul has expectations that I should provide her with financial support NOW ($1,000 here, $1,000 there, $500 here, $500 there), while we are not even married.  Essentially that means I would support two households while we find a way to be together.  Now, I do not mind once in awhile helping someone I love, but to do so with regularity, plus pay the cost of her travel and mine, now that is a preposterous idea.   

So, with all of the above, I AM done and as I said, moving on.  I am going to take some time to regroup and will take the advice of several here and find my mate through the help of this forum. 

I came here to get a better understanding, not because I do not have my own answers, but because I wanted to learn what others think and do.  This forum has helped me get some serious clarity and I appreciate that.  Now, as time goes forward, I plan to be here and to be part of this forum, hopefully giving of my own experiences. 

Thanks for your thoughts Jay! 

Paul