Sad day

[Gator]

Aloe,
 
It is splendid to have a man who is faithful, sexy and provides for you financially.  Perhaps such satisfies your mother's criteria; however, there is far more to personal happiness than this.  The two of you are incompatible in regard to communication, personality, interests and goals.   
 
To top this, I have always thought your husband too aggressive (starting the first minute of your first meeting).  This has escalated to the point that you now feel unsafe, and there is no need to say more.

 
You have been married four or more years.  That is long enough to know your husband and to know how you interact.  Were there ever any blissful periods in your marriage that lasted for more than a month?  If yes, that is something to build upon, to recapture.   Will counseling help?  Not if the two of you are vastly and intrinsically different.  However, counseling will give you the conviction you need to part.
 
I wish you happiness.

[BillyB]

What spooks you?

A prosectuting attorney and the jurisdiction he works for views someones feelings of fear as DV. It makes it more clear on why a woman can call the police on her husband and he gets thrown in jail even if there's no evidence of violence. If Aloe was living in America, she can have her husband thrown in jail right now and clear him out of the apartment just because of her feelings.

 Were there ever any blissful periods in your marriage that lasted for more than a month? 

Aloe once said her marriage/husband is 99% wonderful. I hope she answers your question because a lot of people are dog piling on her husband as if he's one of the worst guys around.....which in turns breeds more fear.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Aloe once said her marriage/husband is 99% wonderful. I hope she answers your question because a lot of people are dog piling on her husband as if he's one of the worst guys around.....which in turns breeds more fear.

Your obsession with the defense of Aloe's husband is getting a little creepy now. 

[Ade]

Your obsession with the defense of Aloe's husband is getting a little creepy now.

I'm guessing he thinks he sees a lot of himself in Aloe's husband and relates on a personal level. Perhaps he favours throttling as a means of quelling an argumentative wife?

[LiveFromUkraine]

I'm guessing he thinks he sees a lot of himself in Aloe's husband and relates on a personal level. Perhaps he favours throttling as a means of quelling an argumentative wife?

Saying the marriage was good 99% of the time doesn't matter if that 1% makes her feel unsafe.   I wouldn't think that would be difficult to understand. 


Apparently, the people on this forum has bred fear in her and her husband is innocent.  I honestly can't follow his logic any longer.

[mies]

I'm guessing he thinks he sees a lot of himself in Aloe's husband and relates on a personal level. Perhaps he favours throttling as a means of quelling an argumentative wife?

Or maybe Aloe's husband found this thread and PM'ed Billy, telling him how much he loves Aloe, and that he didn't mean her any harm, and asked Billy to defend  his name.

Or, possibly, Billy thinks that the marriage is sacred, must be preserved at any cost (to the woman), and no woman should leave the house and her husband for good, unless she is taken straight to the hospital or ICU, or to another better place. If she isn't hospitalized - then her fears are unreasonable and unjustified, and she isn't putting enough effort to make her marriage work. And her marriage is generally good, 99% good, and her husband loves her because he married her and stays with her, and if he pushes and chokes her - that's her fault, because she nagged him and didn't take into consideration that he is immature and can't control his anger, and his patience has limits and she didn't stop when she should have.

Her husband being immature may have pushed Aloe against the wall and told her to shut up in an effort to end the dispute. Being immature is not being a wife beater. Aloe's husband loves her. He let her leave the apartment on her own free will, packing her bags, and taking her computer. She did not leave the apartment in an ambulance.

[BillyB]

Your obsession with the defense of Aloe's husband is getting a little creepy now.

Take more time, do more reading since you like to work with facts. I've been one of his biggest critics in every one of Aloe's threads but stop short of calling him a wife beater. I've also said he's the kind of guy most RW avoid and the one of the reasons why RW will accept a large age gap. A lot of RW have enough BS in their life. They don't need one from an immature husband.


They are not bf and gf and walking away due to differences isn't so easy. They are married so this has to be approached another way with the goal of repair, not separation.


Does anybody here believe when Aloe walks into a marriage counselor's office and tells the same story, the marriage counselor is going to be in shock at the same level as most posters and recommend divorce? If anybody hasn't notice, Aloe is more sensitive than the average RW. Telling her, or even giving the impression, she's sleeping with a wife beater who has not fully blossomed into his role is going to spook her out and push her away from her husband. That is what many posters have done and that is wrong.


LiveFromUkraine, you are one of the posters that said he will never change. That is true if he's a wife beater in the making. That is not true if he's immature. Aloe should have comfort knowing that at her husband's age, there are much more immature people than wife beaters and they grow out of it. Unfortunately for her, she may continue to mature faster than he throughout the marriage and will experience growing pains but it's still not a reason for divorce.

[LiveFromUkraine]

LiveFromUkraine, you are one of the posters that said he will never change. That is true if he's a wife beater in the making. That is not true if he's immature. Aloe should have comfort knowing that at her husband's age, there are much more immature people than wife beaters and they grow out of it. Unfortunately for her, she may continue to mature faster than he throughout the marriage and will experience growing pains but it's still not a reason for divorce.

Once you cross the physical barrier it gets easier and easier to do.  If he is getting physical with her multiple times, no, I don't believe he will change.  If he feels the need to control the situation with grabbing and pushing, no, I don't believe he will change.

Staying in a relationship to wait for a man to mature so he doesn't get physical is pretty stupid.

You never answered my multiple questions as to whether she should stay in a situation that she doesn't feel safe in. 

I will continue asking this even if you continue to ignore it.

[mies]

They are not bf and gf and walking away due to differences isn't so easy. They are married so this has to be approached another way with the goal of repair, not separation.

Let's for a moment step aside from Aloe's story, and discuss why the marriage should be saved/repaired whereas other forms of relationships (gf-bf) can be dissolved.   
I want to make it clear that I am not advocating divorce for Aloe, nor advising her on what she should do.

Why walking away isn't so easy for two people who are young, do not have children, they do not have property to divide, they don't have house mortgage to split? There may be a small procedure, some form to fill in, and show up in the local office or court to get the divorce. Not that much different than bf-gf splitting. If people live together, separation always involves high level of stress: practical (the need to relocate, find new place to live, change lifestyle), and emotional (you are used to the person, have feelings for them, and are used to be with someone, not alone). But other than that - what's so different in marriage without kids and common property that should make it "not easy" for abused spouse to leave if/when they want to?

[TomT]

Billy says these things because he believes pushing, grabbing, throttling, and the intimidation of a spouse is justifiable.

It's the same old forum song: cranks line up with cranks, illiterates line up with illiterates, the obtuse line up with the obtuse, drunks line up with drunks and abusers line up with abusers. (If I left anyone out, please excuse the oversight.) Much like the Republican party, this place is a tent for the refuse of society. Here, members can wallow in their pathological problems and can take solace in the knowledge that they aren't the worst of the worst.

The most troubling thing is that, when a few misogynists start spouting their antisocial bile, so few members take a stand against it. I would hate to think that silence equals assent but such appears to be the case.   

[Muzh]

 So now Aloe should sever ties with her mother?

 Does anyone know Aloe better than her mom? Why throw her mom under the bus?

For all we know.......Her mother may be exactly right! Her mother may also be completely wrong! Who knows?

Hate to tell you this, but I've seen some mothers that do exactly this.

I'll give you two. My ex's mother and my ex.

[Muzh]

Some forum members want to put Aloe's husband in the same wife beater category as husbands who break their wives arms and noses and lock them in the closet. Wrong because there's no evidence of that happening. Now Aloe's mom claims he's one of the best husbands in the world. I don't believe anybody but I do give a lot more credence to what Aloe's mom is saying. Sorry if I don't agree with your advice to Aloe but Aloe's mom is part of her life and knows quite a bit more than the people at this forum.

You are such and idiot an a coward.

You obviously think it is okay to physically assault a weaker person.

[mies]

Once you cross the physical barrier it get's easier and easier to do.  If he is getting physical with her multiple times, no, I don't believe he will change.  If he feels the need to control the situation with grabbing and pushing, no, I don't believe he will change.

Staying in a relationship to wait for a man to mature so he doesn't get physical is pretty stupid.

You never answered my multiple questions as to whether she should stay in a situation that she doesn't feel safe in. 

I will continue asking this even if you continue to ignore it.

I agree with everything stated here.
IMHO, people (and any higher live organisms/animals) commonly use two strategies: learn from experience (which activity among multiple alternatives leads to survival and better life), and move in the direction of minimal resistance.  Some people because they are bored like to challenge themselves: do alpine climbing, swim across the ocean, help the poor, are kind with children - just to prove they can or  because they believe this is the right thing to do. But not all. Most people are trying to get the most (comfort and benefits) out of life with the minimum possible effort.
Being kind and accommodating requires additional effort, and doesn't produce direct and fast desirable outcome, unlike the crude and selfish immature reactions of the abusive spouse. It takes certain level of spiritual maturity, compassion, and selflessness to forgo potential personal benefits in order to accommodate the comfort of another person.
I suppose this is what Billy is talking about when he says that one day the immature boy will become a mature man. That can happen in theory, and sometimes happens in practice. The problem is, that usually people learn from mistakes, when they see their strategy doesn't work, they start looking for better strategy. If there is a couple, where one spouse is immature, and another one is mature and understanding - there are no stimuli for the immature person to change their strategy. On the contrary, they learn that they always get what they want from their partner (and get the level of personal comfort they are seeking) if they act "immaturely" -yell, push, choke, etc.  And they will continue doing it more and more, because they have learned that this strategy is successful, and gives them what they need. Being understanding with them - is basically teaching them bad habits. Being "peaceful and quiet" to make the angry immature person calm down is basically teaching the immature person that they will always get their way, they just need to be angry and violent, disrespectful, rude, etc.   

Using the same logic - you do not always give the child what they want when they make a scene because you don't want to encourage the child in making public scenes, and you do not negotiate with the terrorists - because you do not want to encourage terrorists to organize the acts of terror. They will not/ever become cooperative if you try to cooperate with them!
With child - you try to reason and ignore. With the adult immature spouse - you ignore it to the point possible, you try to reason, but if they do not listen to your reasoning, do not want to talk about the problem, and continue their bad behavior - there is nothing really you can do. It's impossible to ignore the person who humiliates you habitually and threatens you verbally or physically.

If (hypothetically speaking) you, Billy, were also immature when you were young, and maybe yelled at your first wife, or maybe pushed her a couple of times. And now you are mature and wise, where is your first wife? Why aren't you still married to her? Did you mature in the process of marriage because of your wife's kindness, or you matured gradually, and the divorce had contributed to realization of your mistakes?  And why didn't you preserved your first marriage, nor your second marriage? I am not insinuating that you in fact did any of the above (yelling, being disrespectful, etc), I am just trying to make an understandable example.

[Muzh]

actually, in their last dispute, aloe was the initiator of the physical violence.

she raised a glass threatening to hit him over the head with it.

when aloe announced that she and hubby were coming to america, i couldn't believe how many posters were offering to host them for a visit.

i would never expose my happy home to either of these troubled people.

Another one who keeps his little woman in the straight and narrow.

Yep.

[Hammer2722]

In the end what it boils down to is that there are 2 sides to every story and so far we only hear what Aloe chooses to disclose on this forum. For others to make recommendations based on this alone is just plain wrong and dangerous for this young woman's marriage.
 
Aloe needs to get herself and her husband talking to a mental health professional ASAP!!! Only then will she be able to make the right decision's for herself and her future. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

In the end what it boils down to is that there are 2 sides to every story and so far we only hear what Aloe chooses to disclose on this forum. For others to make recommendations based on this alone is just plain wrong and dangerous for this young woman's marriage.
 
Aloe needs to get herself and her husband talking to a mental health professional ASAP!!! Only then will she be able to make the right decision's for herself and her future. 

I understand where you are coming from and I agree to a point.  That point is when someone doesn't feel safe, it doesn't matter what her husband's side of the story is. 

[BillyB]

You never answered my multiple questions as to whether she should stay in a situation that she doesn't feel safe in. 

I will continue asking this even if you continue to ignore it.

You understand forcing me to answer you is abuse? When Aloe wanted to throw and break things and threaten to leave, that is also abuse to her husband. Reason to fear. No.


I can't answer your question because I don't know if Aloe's fear is valid or in part because you guys installed fear into her. Boethius made some good posts earlier with regard to fear that I can agree with.


Now if Aloe's fear was valid and she had concerns her husband is going to break her nose, then she should call the police and get him out of the house until divorce is final. Physical abuse is grounds for divorce.

It's the same old forum song: cranks line up with cranks, illiterates line up with illiterates, the obtuse line up with the obtuse, drunks line up with drunks and abusers line up with abusers. (If I left anyone one, please excuse the oversight.) Much like the Republican party, this place is a tent for the refuse of society. Here, members can wallow in their pathological problems and can take solace in the knowledge that they aren't the worst of the worst.

The most troubling thing is that, when a few misogynists start spouting their antisocial bile, so few members take a stand against it. I would hate to think that silence equals assent but such appears to be the case.   

What does Republicans have to do with this? It's a little early to be drinking in the morning isn't it?


Remember, I'm the one that's supposed to have problems in my married life based off the advice I've given. When someone disagrees, I'm the one who is supposed to call people names, attack their married life, political, and religious beliefs. I'm the one who is emotionally unstable and take things to the next level using abusive means to get my way. You are supposed to be Liberal, peace loving and calm.

[mies]

In the end what it boils down to is that there are 2 sides to every story and so far we only hear what Aloe chooses to disclose on this forum. For others to make recommendations based on this alone is just plain wrong and dangerous for this young woman's marriage.

Are we trying to help the live individual, or are we trying to help the "marriage"? Isn't the marriage the volunteer and personal choice of an individual?

[LiveFromUkraine]

You understand forcing me to answer you is abuse? When Aloe wanted to throw and break things and threaten to leave, that is also abuse to her husband. Reason to fear. No.


I can't answer your question because I don't know if Aloe's fear is valid or in part because you guys installed fear into her. Boethius made some good posts earlier with regard to fear that I can agree with.


Now if Aloe's fear was valid and she had concerns her husband is going to break her nose, then she should call the police and get him out of the house until divorce is final. Physical abuse is grounds for divorce.

I think I will bow out of this conversation with you now.  To question if Aloe's feeling is valid was the nail in the coffin for me. 

[Muzh]

It seems to me you are reading too much into that response.  Part of it may be that you don't feel safe, but it sounds as if your husband approaches the world methodically, perhaps logically? and you, at this point are reacting on emotion.  So, you are speaking different languages, and your communication may not be at an optimum level for resolving things.

Was going to say the same here.

[Muzh]

Aloe, if you don't feel safe, then you don't feel safe.  I don't think he justified killing anyone but it is apparent that you don't feel comfortable.  That, imo, is all you need to be concerned about and you should not stay in a situation you don't feel comfortable or feel for your safety.


I have a feeling that the two of you are bringing out the worst in each other.  I honestly think there is a time where you had enough or you don't want to fix it.  It sounds like you are at that point and may want to start thinking about what you can do to leave.


What type of support do you have there?

This is also very good advice.

[Muzh]

I don't find that response at all unusual, Aloe.  It suggests to me, among other things, that he loves you.

OR he is unwilling to take full responsibility.

I was young once, and learned this is NOT the way to approach life.

[Hammer2722]

Aloe, I truely hope whatever decisions you make will be made after getting help from a real professional for you and your husband. If you make decisions based off what people are telling you here because they have read crap off the internet, you may end up regretting those decisions later.
 
I wish you the best for your future happiness whther its with your hubby or not.

[BillyB]

Are we trying to help the live individual, or are we trying to help the "marriage"? Isn't the marriage the volunteer and personal choice of an individual?

I asked Aloe in the past if she was looking to get out of her marriage and she didn't reply. The individual, marriage, and problems are all intertwined. We can't help Aloe as an individual if the problems in her marriage aren't solved. If she determines it's time to get out of the marriage, I and we should give her advice on how to do it amicably with as less pain possible. She seems to have a little fight left in her by seeing a marriage counselor so lets fight with her to save her marriage.

[Muzh]

Dear...you came back for all the wrong reasons, partly to please your mother. In your mind you already are convinced it is a lost cause, that is what you had decided during your stay at the hotel.
Just remember......you deserve to love and be loved and there many, many out there that would love to meet your acquaintance if that is what you choose to do. I pray for you to have strength to decide what is best for you!!

LAman, right on the money.