Sad day

[Aloe]

Besides any time i wanna talk about my feelings i have to bring up the arguments, because they are a big part of it. And whenever i bring up arguments he gets instantly annoyed, there is no talking then.

[Ooooops]

I tell him after every argument, but he forgets  

May be right after arguments (or during) is not the best time to discuss serious matters... 

[Aloe]

I say i'm feeling this... and he asks why are you feeling this? Then i have to say because of all the arguments we've had, and because of your grabbing and swearing, then he is annoyed, and goes like "really??? this again???you should really learn to let things go!!!"

[mies]

When your exams are done, and you have arranged the apartment, I do think you owe it to him to tell him what you are feeling.  I don't think it is fair to him to take an apartment, knowing full well you are doing it to see how you live on your own, and leave him clueless.   Perhaps you will reconcile, you don't know, but it would be wrong to deceive him in this regard.

Boethius, I think you are giving Aloe  a good advice for an ideal world, but a bad advice for a real world. We all know that Aloe's husband has issues with anger management, we all know that for him physical domination over woman is acceptable. We also know that he gets easily irritated, and according to Aloe, his role model is his father who disrespects his wife.
You are giving advice Aloe on the assumption that Aloe's husband will act civil once he hears the news.
God knows how he will react in reality. Do you want to take responsibility for his potentially violent actions? Should Aloe risk her health and life but know that "she gave her husband that honesty that she owed him?"

Aloe has revealed in a different thread that she was discussing recently the past incident with her husband, and her husband told her that had she caused physical harm to him, he would crush her skull. (She will probably correct me, because I do not remember the exact wording, except for the crushing the skull part). I think that with people like this any sensitive talks should be held post factum, and ideally in public with many witnesses. Or best, not even face-to-face.  I think it is wrong to risk your well-being/health/life in order to be honest to a dangerous person. It's not a deceit for opportunistic reasons, it's a deceit for self-protection, and as such it is perfectly justified. I think being a hero, or a white knight, under such circumstances isn't the act of honesty, it's not the act of chivalry, it's the act of stupidity.

Most importantly, why drop the scary D word if she hasn't decided yet that she wants a divorce. For now she wants to try live separately and see how she feels about her marriage, while being away from stress and husband. I don't think there is a need to explain to husband that living separately may result in divorce. It would be akin to explaining to a person you are marrying that the marriage may result in a divorce. The probability may be low, but non zero. They have communication issues, Aloe wants to live separately for some time and think it over. Maybe she will decide she wants to save her marriage. Maybe she will decide she wants out. It's too early to know what the decision will be.

[Ooooops]

I say i'm feeling this... and he asks why are you feeling this? Then i have to say because of all the arguments we've had, and because of your grabbing and swearing, then he is annoyed, and goes like "really??? this again???you should really learn to let things go!!!"

When did this grabbing happened?   It wasn't recent, was it? 

[Ooooops]

Aloe has revealed in a different thread that she was discussing recently the past incident with her husband, and her husband told her that had she caused physical harm to him, he would crush her skull. (She will probably correct me, because I do not remember the exact wording, except for the crushing the skull part).

In this case why not move out immediately? 

[Gator]

No, i have been very careful not to hurt his feelings. His dropping the D word all through the first 18 months of our marriage had caused me immense suffering.

His dropping the D word suggests he is highly frustrated and immature.  He does not want a divorce, yet his relationship with you is not what he expected  or wanted.   A mature man would endeavor to reconcile the differences.  Instead  he threatens you with divorce ("do it my way or I divorce you") and physical abuse.  Not good, and going nowhere but downhill. 
 
Your husband may be very intelligent about programming; however, his lack of maturity will hold you back in life.  You are too smart for this life. 
 
I understand you have no close friends  or family in your city who would help you if you separated.  And no RW network nearby?   So you must do everything on your own.  Hence, the studio as an exit plan.   
 
If you were my daughter I would show up at your door with a truck, pack your belongings, and set you up in a new place.  If your parents have money as you stated, I suggest that you ask them to pay for the studio rather than get your hubby involved.  You can keep it a secret until you are out, and he can not complain that you tricked him into paying for it.
 
Its early morning there.    Do you do all-nighters frequently?
 
 

[mies]

In this case why not move out immediately?

Maybe because she doesn't have place (yet) to move out immediately, and she wants to pass her exams not to lose the semester worth of courses and studying. Maybe because it takes time to find apartment. Maybe because people here on the forum (me including) have advised her that unless situation is really dangerous, she should develop the exit strategy before leaving her husband. And this is her exit strategy.

[mies]

I suggest that you ask them to pay for the studio rather than get your hubby involved.  You can keep it a secret until you are out, and he can not complain that you tricked him into paying for it.

That would be my first choice too.

[Ooooops]

Maybe because she doesn't have place (yet) to move out immediately, and she wants to pass her exams not to lose the semester worth of courses and studying. Maybe because it takes time to find apartment.

If there is a fear for physical safety then there are hotels out there (and parents who will pay for it).  And why would moving out compromise Aloe's studies? 

[mies]

If there is a fear for physical safety then there are hotels out there (and parents who will pay for it).  And why would moving out compromise Aloe's studies?

I don't have answers to any of these questions. Perhaps the assumption is that the husband isn't dangerous/scary until something triggers his anger. Also, we do not know what exactly are the arrangements with the parents, and what is the dynamics there. The money that they gave to Aloe before are now in her husband's account, if I understood it correctly from the previous posts.

[BillyB]

If there is a fear for physical safety then there are hotels out there (and parents who will pay for it). 

Maybe Aloe can clarify if there's a real danger to her physical safety. From all the threads Aloe has written on her marital disputes, I've never heard of her hubby drawing blood or breaking bones. During arguments he gets physical as a means to end the argument, not to hurt his wife.


If Aloe has a real fear of getting harmed, she should leave the country and go back to her parents, not get another apartment.

[Ooooops]

From all the threads Aloe has written on her marital disputes, I've never heard of her hubby drawing blood or breaking bones.

Oh, is this what it takes to qualify for "physical abuse" now?   Nothing less?   

During arguments he gets physical as a means to end the argument, not to hurt his wife.

Walking out of the room would get same result, I think...

If Aloe has a real fear of getting harmed, she should leave the country and go back to her parents, not get another apartment.

So now this hubby is not only an abuser, but a stalker as well???   

[Ozzimusician]

Crikey !!

No blood and broken bones = not abuse

BillyB - what can I say - its a certain view of male/female relations that you clearly hold.  I don't suppose it's possible to rape your wife in the same vein of thinking - they are your property - correct? 

[BillyB]

Oh, is this what it takes to qualify for "physical abuse" now?   Nothing less?   

That's what it takes to qualify as "physical violence". Hubby putting his hand around his wife's neck to grab a glass she's about to throw out of her hand is abuse but he is also making an attempt to prevent abuse caused by his wife at the same time. Do you think he deserves jail for that? Do you think both parties deserve jail for that kind of abuse? Hubby is not a wife beater. If he is, he's not doing a very good job.

[BillyB]

Walking out of the room would get same result, I think...

You are correct and that is why both parties in this marriage are immature. Instead they tend to let their disputes escalate, sometimes by accident, other times on purpose.

[Ooooops]

That's what it takes to qualify as "physical violence".

Actually, here is common definition for that:


“Physical violence is the intentional use of physical force with the potential for causing death, disability, injury, or harm. Physical violence includes, but is not limited to, scratching; pushing; shoving; throwing; grabbing; biting; choking; shaking; slapping; punching; burning; use of a weapon; and use of restraints or one’s body, size, or strength against another person”

[Boethius]

Boethius, I think you are giving Aloe  a good advice for an ideal world, but a bad advice for a real world. We all know that Aloe's husband has issues with anger management, we all know that for him physical domination over woman is acceptable. We also know that he gets easily irritated, and according to Aloe, his role model is his father who disrespects his wife.
You are giving advice Aloe on the assumption that Aloe's husband will act civil once he hears the news.
God knows how he will react in reality. Do you want to take responsibility for his potentially violent actions? Should Aloe risk her health and life but know that "she gave her husband that honesty that she owed him?"

Aloe has revealed in a different thread that she was discussing recently the past incident with her husband, and her husband told her that had she caused physical harm to him, he would crush her skull. (She will probably correct me, because I do not remember the exact wording, except for the crushing the skull part). I think that with people like this any sensitive talks should be held post factum, and ideally in public with many witnesses. Or best, not even face-to-face.  I think it is wrong to risk your well-being/health/life in order to be honest to a dangerous person. It's not a deceit for opportunistic reasons, it's a deceit for self-protection, and as such it is perfectly justified. I think being a hero, or a white knight, under such circumstances isn't the act of honesty, it's not the act of chivalry, it's the act of stupidity.

Most importantly, why drop the scary D word if she hasn't decided yet that she wants a divorce. For now she wants to try live separately and see how she feels about her marriage, while being away from stress and husband. I don't think there is a need to explain to husband that living separately may result in divorce. It would be akin to explaining to a person you are marrying that the marriage may result in a divorce. The probability may be low, but non zero. They have communication issues, Aloe wants to live separately for some time and think it over. Maybe she will decide she wants to save her marriage. Maybe she will decide she wants out. It's too early to know what the decision will be.

Aloe is not afraid enough to keep it secret, she is not afraid enough to not vacation with him, and she is still living with hubby, so where is all this fear?


I don't recall reading anything about him threatening to bash in her skull, so perhaps Aloe could clarify that, and I believe that they agreed to set up separate accounts, with a joint account for their common expenses.  None of these things suggest a controlling man, although he may have issues controlling his temper.  Nevertheless, what I am suggesting is, she not set up this apartment through him, she should not be lying to him and telling him this is so that she does not have to commute if, in fact, she is attempting to separate from him.  There is no need to lie.   She is doing what is convenient for her (jointly pay for a trip to America, vacation together, etc.), when she knows that immediately after that trip, she plans to leave him.

[GoodOlBoy]

There is no need to lie.   She is doing what is convenient for her (jointly pay for a trip to America, vacation together, etc.), when she knows that immediately after that trip, she plans to leave him.

Aloe never mentioned this?
You are a smart lady Boethius, but I am not so sure about posting this statement on the internet.
Assuming you are correct, I hope he never finds this place.
God only knows what he would do to Aloe.
He may go berserk.
 
GOB

[GoodOlBoy]

Aloe is not afraid enough to keep it secret, she is not afraid enough to not vacation with him, and she is still living with hubby, so where is all this fear?

Upon reflection....
 
If what you say is true Boethius, that Aloe is using her husband as a "holiday mule" to suit her own personal whims and desires, then I would be very disappointed in her.
 
GOB

[BillyB]

Actually, here is common definition for that:


“Physical violence is the intentional use of physical force with the potential for causing death, disability, injury, or harm. Physical violence includes, but is not limited to, scratching; pushing; shoving; throwing; grabbing; biting; choking; shaking; slapping; punching; burning; use of a weapon; and use of restraints or one’s body, size, or strength against another person”

Aloe's husband doesn't use physical force that would cause Aloe death, disability, injury, or harm(physically). He's immature and can't deal with arguments that escalate. His way of stopping it is grabbing Aloe and pushing her. He pushes her to push her away to end the argument, not to push her down so he can get the advantage of high ground to effectively beat her some more.


Aloe thinks her husband is immature, dumb and boring. If she relays some of her thoughts in arguments and imply he's worthless, he can snap or use the D"divorce" word often. Aloe once said he sometimes go into silent mode and although that's not "walking out of the room" to end a dispute, Aloe should understand he doesn't want to talk about it and leave him alone so he can cool off instead trying to escalate the dispute.

[TomT]

Actually, here is common definition for that:


“Physical violence is the intentional use of physical force with the potential for causing death, disability, injury, or harm. Physical violence includes, but is not limited to, scratching; pushing; shoving; throwing; grabbing; biting; choking; shaking; slapping; punching; burning; use of a weapon; and use of restraints or one’s body, size, or strength against another person”

You are trying to debate with a Neanderthal who considers physical abuse to be justifiable.

[Boethius]

GOB, to be fair to Aloe, the trip was planned and paid for before Aloe made this decision.  However, the timing could be better, with some consideration to him.


I do wish Aloe the best, and any decision she makes will be the right one for her.  I just want her to really think about how she does this.  This is a man she once loved.

[Faux Pas]

You are trying to debate with a Neanderthal who considers physical abuse to be justifiable.

Nothing like a good rap across the mouth to keep our wimmin in line eh? 

[mies]

Sometimes I regret that A's mother never get to read this wonderful forum.


As for Aloe's story, I do not think that Aloe used her husband as a "vacation mule." That has been a very long and elaborate plot, plotting for 5 years, marrying a person, living with him together, just to get the vacation. 
In my understanding, Aloe and her husband planned the trip in their good period/episode. Her marriage is a mix of good episodes, neutral/bearable episodes, and bad/unbearable episodes. During neutral episodes husband doesn't do anything bad, nor does he do anything unusually good for Aloe (other than allowing her to live with him, eat the bread he earns, and take care of his house). During the good episodes he agrees to have dialogue with her and they are able to reach consensus on some topics. The trip was the result of consensus. They bought tickets. No matter what happens now, tickets are non-refundable, and quite expensive. It's already a sunk cost. If Aloe moves out NOW, and they both don't use the trip - that's a huge waste of money. If they have a big fight right before the trip, and keep on fighting on the trip - that's again a huge waste of money. I do not think Aloe plotted to lure her husband into the vacation planning while already knowing she wants to separate from him. I think it was her attempt to reconcile, to do something fun and refresh the feelings they both once had for each other. Vacations can be very romantic, you know. Then, in the last weeks, perhaps something  happened. Maybe not too serious to report here, but serious enough to make Aloe willing to move out temporarily. It is true, there is no perfect way to get out of this situation, but different people have different ways to making lemonade out of lemons. In terms of money spent  on the trip by Aloe's husband - I'm sure the mutually satisfying solution can be found.

Moreover, it is a  documented fact, that some individuals (usually unintentionally) create the atmosphere of emotional roller coaster for their spouses and families. I am not claiming that Aloe's husband is this type (just because I don't know him and never met him). But in the families with emotional roller coaster it is very common that emotions of the spouse change from being optimistic and hopeful to feeling desperate and wanting out. It is very possible to happily make the vacation plans on the "high" episode, and pack bags (and not for vacation) during the "low" stage.