Starting out and older Ukrainian women

[ukthesis]

I am just getting interested in this and so I want to research these Russian services more.  Basically, and without going into all the boring specifics, there are very few opportunities for me to meet suitable women in their late 40s and 50s where I live. Someone suggested I might want to explore the Russian women option as an alternative.  I realise the pitfalls and that it's a gamble, and I have done a bit of research already and read about those infamous scammers.  I live in the UK.

The first thing is that most people I've mentioned this idea to are absolutely HORRIFIED that I would be interested in the Russians as any sort of alternative.  They automatically assume that all these women in Russia are simply gold-diggers who are just itching for a chance to rip off stupid foreigners who should know better.  The field has, among my friends, a very bad reputation.

The other points that come through are:

a) these Russian (Ukranian ones usually) women seem keen to get married to a westerner.  This raises the problem that there may be pressure on the western man to marry her before he has time to know here that well.  Hence the marriage fails because they rushed into it.  There are always scammers around and you have to be very careful and do not give money upfront.  Even if you follow this advice, they could still hope to scam you after the marriage.  Once they get a UK passport, this means that new opportunities open for Russian scammers and if they are fraudsters they might empty your bank account, etc.  This makes it IMPERATIVE that you take the time, no matter how long, to get to know the woman and her family before commitment.  If you have reservations, either forget her or put your concerns to her.

c) some of the Ukrainian sites are populated by ladies who can speak hardly any English despite (I am told) English being compulsory in state schools.  I was advised to avoid these sites, like Baltic Ladies, since how are you going to communicate and form a relationship with someone who doesn't even understand the lingo?

c) I have been browsing the Baltic Ladies website.  Not as a member, just browsing.  Now a while ago I asked them why these seemingly good looking women needed to bother about pursuing men from abroad.  After all, here in the UK they would have no problems getting another man solely on their looks, if for example they were divorced.  I was told by Baltic Ladies that there is a shortage of good men in the Ukraine.  Also, there is a stigma attached to divorcees.

However, when I later on asked them specifically about the women on their books aged 45-58, more my age, the answer was very different.  They pointed out that generally these women are looking for western men to support them fully.  They would not expect to even look for work if they moved to the UK and they often have no savings to bring with them.  I do have substantial savings to my name.  But these would disappear if I had to support two people completely and permanently.

I don't see any other way of looking at it in that these women are pure gold-diggers, if this is right.  The man in question would actually have to be stupid.  If he ever loses his money, expect her to leave.  She would not be trustworthy.  Maybe I am missing something, since what man, even if he has enough money to support them both permanently, would be dumb enough to want a relationship based on her coming across to the UK to just spend his money, and using him as her meal-ticket?

This serious problem, if it exists as I have been told, is something I have not seen discussed.  Baltic Ladies tells me that the womens' retirement age in the Ukraine is about 50.  Which is why their women abount that age would not even bother to look for work in the UK if the man hasn't the funds to permanently support them both; also that this group of women have few assets like savings to bring over with them from the Ukraine to help.

So in this situation, thoughts of romance and love as the basis to the relationship won't really come into the equation.  Simply and brutally, if you don't have the money to keep her in the UK, go somewhere else.  Maybe there is another side to this story, or that Baltic Ladies didn't give me the fully story, something that I am counting on, but it needs to be discussed.

Baltic Ladies, by the way, also claimed that the Ukrainians they deal with and that are in their mid to late 40s would ALSO be uninterested in, or unable to, financially contribute in any substantial way to a marriage to a UK citizen, the same as the women in their 50s.  Why this would be so is unclear, since if they remained in the Ukraine, they would have to look for work over there. 

Again just going off what Baltic Ladies advised to me, these older Ukrainian women might think there are enough rich (and dumb) westerners available to whisk them away to the land of milk and honey in the west, where the streets are paved with gold.  At any rate, this would not be a relationship that most of the men on these forums and sites would want.

If this advice is valid, members on these forums should be only looking for Russian women up to about the age 40 ... unless they're loaded and dense.

I do hope the grim picture they painted of the older Ukrainians is false, and that my friends were wrong to warn me off anything to do with these Russian dating sites, but obviously this is something that needs to be clarified.

Please try to be constructive, by the way.  I posted this query on another website, and got some very unhelpful replies that didn't address any of the questions raised.

[Shadow]

You raised some questions that I will try to answer.

1. Are these ladies gold diggers or scammers?
Some are, some are not. It is up to you to find the right answer.

2. Why they do not speak English if it is a compulsory subject?
It may be compulsory today, but not in the time they went to school. Besides, did you learn any language in school that you never used afterwards? If so, how well can you speak it ? To add, the level of English teaching is often very poor.

3. Why they do not look for work?
You have addressed already some of the problems. Their language is poor, their job qualification often does not translate. A woman in her late 40's or early 50's is not very keen on going to school to regain her qualifications, nor to do the jobs available to her without them. She has worked for 30 or 40 years, and will not be happy to start from scratch.

4. So they have nothing?
If you will come to the point where a marriage is in the cards, you might foind that their real savings exceed yours. However just as you are not keen to lose your savings to her, she will not be keen to disclose all to you.

The bottom line is that if you wish to establish a family, you will have to be able to  provide for it. If you can not, looking in the FSU is not for you.

[Lily]

Hello ukthesis,
 
To your a), yes, this would mostly be a challenge in the long term relationships not only to get to know someone by correspondence and skype, but also to attract her with a prospect of living together. It also may require marriage before you finally have lived together for a while. It takes a great skill in communication, understanding people,  lie detection, etc. Some people are more successful and lucky, some are less so.
 
To your b) re language. Yes learning a foreign language is a mandatory high school subject, but all people have different inclination for it. Also, keep in mind that in the USSR, people had little opportujity to travel and to socialize with foreigners. Which made learning English almost close to learning Latin in the Western lycees - you know the rules but never had an opportunity to use it in real life.
 
To your c), a beauty standard bar is much higher in the Eastern Europe, and especially so in the former USSR countries. That means, a woman who would be slightly above average by Russian or Baltic standards, would likely be considered very good looking in your country.
 
 

[Muzh]

Ukthesis

Stay home, you are already damaged goods. You are looking for scammers and that is what you will find. Hell, you can look for scammers in GB and find them in every corner.

If you really want to do this, don't put the cart before the horse.

[Boethius]

It may be compulsory today, but not in the time they went to school. Besides, did you learn any language in school that you never used afterwards? If so, how well can you speak it ? To add, the level of English teaching is often very poor.

Every student in Ukraine had to study a foreign language from the fifth grade on.  Some schools started foreign language training in the first grade.  The languages were German, French, or English.

[ukthesis]

Thanks for the followups.

I understand about the gold-diggers and scammers, although you might say that most of them both are after personal advantage in some way, more often to do with money.

On the more serious point.  I do understand what you mean about their job prospects in the UK.  As you say, they are not that good in the UK.  However, there are two points on this.  The first is that in the UK, even if you do not find work, you can get an income if you can just show you are looking for work.  This income, though low, is enough.  If you are not even prepared to show you are looking for work, you get nothing from the state.  To look for work however would require that the lady is prepared to learn a level of English first.  (BTW - the women on Baltic Ladies of all ages, including those in their 20s, claim to have very poor English language skills, so I can't explain that.)  They would have to learn some English regardless of the job issue in order to form a relationship in the UK with a guy who cannot speak Russian, or only speaks a little; so this ask isn't unreasonable.

The second point is that I am told that most of the older women have "no savings" and presumably little else.  I obviously have no idea, but this is something Baltic Ladies told me.  Now looking at it from the view of something that is practical for me to pursue, this means that the guy will have to have a lot of money to his name for the next 20 years.  And, as I say, he should be prepared to overlook that she is probably mainly interested in him so long as he has this money.

I am looking for companionship.  And I AM (crucially) prepared to contribute to a marriage (in case it came across that I simply want the relationship to be one way, which isn't the case).  But the simple fact is no matter what the motivations for wanting a relationship, if you ain't got the money, you just ain't got it and can't magic it into existence.

So what would you recommend?  As before, be constructive.  What I do wonder, and I think this is hinted in your message, is that the resources an older Russian lady can bring to the table vary hugely.  So that blanket generalizations like that I was given are misleading and that I would have to discover on a case basis what the lady in question has to contribute in order for any type of development to take place.  It's not something that can be avoided talking about at some stage.  It's sensible to address this as a potential problem that will have to be faced sooner than later though, don't you think?  Especially at the research stage, as we are discussing it now.

[Faux Pas]

ukthesis

You seem that your heart is in the right place but your thought process is tilted somewhat.

Firstly, forget everything Baltic Ladies told you. They have some skin in the game and it is important for them that you believe that crock of chit.

The age range of the ladies has little to nothing to do with whether or not they will scam you. Typically, younger ladies are scamming the older men seeking the young flesh. That's not to say that an older woman wouldn't scam as well. Scams while frequent, are not typical and easy enough to avoid if you let the big head do the thinking.

There are many wonderful women in the age range you mention and yes, they are looking for a man to spend the rest of their life with.

To get right to the point of the matter and brass tacks, you can find a woman for love, romance and marriage in the FSU. If you want a western style life and marriage with one of these women, you'll have to provide a western style dating and romance. Are you prepared to do that? Dating a woman that lives in the FSU is much easier said, than done

It doesn't compare to simply picking out a picture on a website and declaring "I want her", you send money and she shows up delivered by the postman. You visit them, you date them, you woo, wine and dine them. Despite being more attractive and shapely than the women you find locally, they are still women.

To summarize, it can be done. Many swing and miss, many others hit home runs and yet others get a ground out going to first.

If you are looking for a woman that can show up and pay her own way, it's going to be a long search. Can you afford to date and find a wife locally? There is nothing cheap or inexpensive in the endeavor and I recommend that if you don't go "all in" for the long haul, don't go at all.

Good Luck

[Muzh]

An older Russian lady can bring a LOT to the table. BUT you have to trust her to do that.

Please, take your time to get to know her before making any commitments. Most of these ladies would take a chance because they want to have male company in their later days.

A serious Russian woman would have a LOT more concerns about you than you of her.

And what Faux Pas said. 

[pitbull]

So what would you recommend?  As before, be constructive.  What I do wonder, and I think this is hinted in your message, is that the resources an older Russian lady can bring to the table vary hugely.  So that blanket generalizations like that I was given are misleading and that I would have to discover on a case basis what the lady in question has.  It's sensible to address this as a potential problem that will have to be faced sooner than later though, don't you think?  Especially at the research stage.

Since you are looking for someone closer to your age, a companion who can contribute to a marriage, and who you can communicate with reasonably well, I have a magical solution for you (Drum roll) - Find a UK woman! 
 
How's that for a recommendation?

[Manny]

To me, you sound underfunded.

This isn't a cheap thing to do, and you think dole money is "enough", which it simply isn't - here or there. Also, unless she can speak English, pass a life in the UK test, and you cough up a few grand for visas, she ain't coming here.

The UK doesn't need immigrants that will seek dole money any more than Russian speaking women need blokes who are underfunded. If you don't earn enough to comfortably support a family, this isn't for you. If you don't earn enough to comfortably support a family, she wont get a visa.

Most women will happily work, but few will want to marry a man from abroad who is already counting her future earnings towards living expenses.

[Misha]

I do have substantial savings to my name.  But these would disappear if I had to support two people completely and permanently.

Are you living off of your savings? Do you not work?

[Shadow]

If you are looking for a woman in the age range you described, they will most likely own their house or apartment. And owning in the FSU means there is zero mortgage. This is usually a 'nest egg' for their children, but while it is not used it might be rented and can bring some income.
However one has to worry on what you can bring to the table more than what she can. You do not need to be a rich man, but your income should be enough to sustain two people and make once or twice a year a trip to the FSU to meet with family.
If you can not do that, perhaps you should try to change your situation before looking to the FSU (or elsewhere) to find a wife.
If you need a wife who will work to support you, you are looking in the wrong place. Not that it might not happen, just your odds are worse.

[ukthesis]

I'm not going into my personal situation about "why can't I find a UK woman."  I don't want to appear abusive, but putting it delicately, I have tried that avenue and actually I don't regard that comment as "constructive."  Note that I have experienced this sort of unhelpful "advice" before - see the last passage of my message; and BTW you can say the same about 95 percent of the other men registered on this forum, right? Why don't they also find women in their own country?  You might try asking and they will no doubt give you a few "interesting" pieces of advice back that may get some of them banned from the forum.

Anyhow, back to the more constructive posts.   I do have savings, so I am very definitely not underfunded.  However, like 95 percent of men I do not have the magnitude of money that will permanently fund two people living together.  I also own my house.  So rest assured than I have more than enough to live on.  The cost of visas, traveling to Russia, accommodation, etc. etc I have absolutely no problems with meeting.  With respect to the dole money, and I have lived on it very many years ago, I understand the point about it.  However ... I could quite readily afford to top it up with the savings I have.  So it's just the magnitudes at issue.

Money wouldn't be that much of an issue if my savings could be added to her savings, or her other sources of income.  I did assume that Baltic Ladies was going to say something like this - some Ukrainian women have good savings, others don't, it all depends on the woman.  But they didn't and that's why I am just asking, that's all.

[Misha]

However, like 95 percent of men I do not have the magnitude of money that will permanently fund two people living together.

Magnitude of money? Adding a second person does not cost twice as much. You are sharing the same bed (or one would hope so), are using the same utilities, and so forth so the additional costs are not that great and food is not a biggie either. As other have noted, most women will work if they can, but best not to expect that she will be able to work quickly. It may take years, at best, if she has to learn the language and upgrade her skills. However, if you marry the right person, and if you have a decent job, then it is possible to live on one salary with a modicum of frugality...

[Faux Pas]

Money wouldn't be that much of an issue if my savings could be added to her savings, or her other sources of income.  I did assume that Baltic Ladies was going to say something like this - some Ukrainian women have good savings, others don't, it all depends on the woman.  But they didn't and that's why I am just asking, that's all.

Forget Baltic Ladies, they are eyeballing that savings you mentioned. No matter what they told you, forget it all and start reading here. uk, chances are any lady you find, will have very little if any at all in assets to bring to the table to a marriage in UK. She will likely be several years before she is able to hold a job. If you need a second income to have/afford a wife, you can't afford one from the FSU. I am not stating that disparingly, it's facts, I didn't make it up.

No one is here to ridicule you, you came and asked questions. Few here will tell you what you "want" to hear. Most will tell you what you "need" to hear

[ukthesis]

Thanks for both the latest posts, which I do find helpful.  I've done nothing about this idea so there's little lost if I don't decide to pursue the Russian women idea. 

These two posts are quite contradictory.  One believes that so long as I have a decent level of savings, which I do, I should be able to manage on what I have if a woman comes across here (with the idea that two can live almost as cheaply as one).  The second followup is more pessimistic.  It states, if I have it right, that unless I can afford to support her with with what I alone have, probably on a permanent basis, this is an idea that ain't gonna work.  And that the idea that two can live anywhere as cheaply as one is rubbish.

So in this last case most of the guys on these forums who are not rich, the vast majority, are pursuing an unrealistic dream, at least if they are looking for women over 45, since they would not be able to afford the cost.  Would this be accurate?

[Misha]

The cost is partially money, but it can also be time. Can you spend the necessary weeks and months to get to know a woman overseas?

[ukthesis]

Yes, time is no problem.

The only question would be the level of financial support I could give for any woman coming across here.  I would never expect not to contribute, but obviously there would have to be a limit for it to work in the real world.  Just to repeat the point, I have quite a lot more savings than I need as an individual, but I doubt if it's enough to exclusively fund, on a permanent basis, two people.  Hence the advice that I received from Baltic Ladies called into question the very practicality of even bothering to form an online relationship with one of these lovely ladies.  Very simple.

[Gator]

ukthesis   
 
Keep reading RWD.  You will find in the archives some interesting threads on the costs of providing for a RW wife.
 
RW have some financial assets, typically limited to their flat.  However, they would choose to be dipped in shit before they would sell their flat and move to the West to marry a stranger.
 
If you find a wonderful RW in her late 40s, you may want to consider the possibility that you would move to the FSU for a year or so.   You would have to learn the Russian language (the same as you would expect your wife to speak English).  You can live there for less money than in the UK dependent upon your health.
 
Finally, use reputable agencies who do not want to sell you services such as letter writing, travel, etc.  ML will soon check into this thread and give you a link to the more reputable agencies.

[Misha]

If you find a wonderful RW in her late 40s, you may want to consider the possibility that you would move to the FSU for a year or so.   You would have to learn the Russian language (the same as you would expect your wife to speak English).  You can live there for less money than in the UK dependent upon your health.

This is good advice. Train wrecks are often more likely to happen when things are rushed, when strangers get married with expectations that simply do not match.

[Faux Pas]

Thanks for both the latest posts, which I do find helpful.  I've done nothing about this idea so there's little lost if I don't decide to pursue the Russian women idea. 

These two posts are quite contradictory.  One believes that so long as I have a decent level of savings, which I do, I should be able to manage on what I have if a woman comes across here (with the idea that two can live almost as cheaply as one).  The second followup is more pessimistic.  It states, if I have it right, that unless I can afford to support her with with what I alone have, probably on a permanent basis, and that the idea that two can live as cheaply as one is rubbish, this is an idea that ain't gonna work.

So in this last case most of the guys on these forums who are not rich, the vast majority, are pursuing an unrealistic dream, at least if they are looking for women over 45, since they would not be able to afford the cost.  Would this be accurate?

No, are you attempting to be thick? There is expense in this pursuit. Lots of it. Even after your married and she is safely in your arms at home, the expense continues. She needs clothes, food in her belly, transportation, (in the U.S. the immigration needs) women things, make-up, her own entertainment. She'll need to make your home her home. Prepare new things within it.

Most likely uk, she will be a woman as I mentioned up thread. Just like women the world over. It is much cheaper living and carrying on right by your lonesome. If you are looking to save a quid or bring another income into the household, this isn't the way to do it. If you are looking for a woman to spend the rest of your life with, this might be the way but be prepared. After the initial expense of travel, rented flats, dates, gifts comes the cost of maitenence. It will last as long as you/she lives. Misha by his own admission lives on a shoestring budget and his wife apparently agrees to it. Most women do not.

[ukthesis]

Thanks Gator.  Have to leave the site for the moment.

That's interesting advice you give and definitely the sort of advice I can work with.  If the general opinion here, after what I've said, is that attempting to meet a Ukrainian lady is a practical proposition, I have more queries.  So this may be the start or end of a journey, depending critically on this money issue, which at the end of the day can't be avoided.

I do hear a LOT of critics and doubters about these Russians.  I started off in my first post explaining that most people over here think that guys who go to Russia are just weirdos who will probably get ripped off over there for their trouble.  After a while of hearing this, I start to believe it.  What would you say were the POSITIVE things about wanting to settle with a Russian woman?

[Misha]

Misha by his own admission lives on a shoestring budget and his wife apparently agrees to it. Most women do not.

We simply do not waste money on frivolous things    However, my wife does not have to agree to anything, as she is much more frugal than I and she is the one who, if anything, keeps in check my spending   

[Hammer2722]

Thanks Gator.  Have to leave the site for the moment.

That's interesting advice you give and definitely the sort of advice I can work with.  If the general opinion here, after what I've said, is that attempting to meet a Ukrainian lady is a practical proposition, I have more queries.  So this may be the start or end of a journey, depending critically on this money issue, which at the end of the day can't be avoided.

I do hear a LOT of critics and doubters about these Russians.  I started off in my first post explaining that most people over here think that guys who go to Russia are just weirdos who will probably get ripped off over there for their trouble.  After a while of hearing this, I start to believe it. 

If you have to spend so much time analyzing the money aspect of this endeavor, then it is probably not for you. Avoiding scammers is quite easy. You just use the commone sense that god gave you. Too often, men get scammed because they throw all common sense out and use their little head to do their thinking.

[Faux Pas]

We simply do not waste money on frivolous things    However, my wife does not have to agree to anything, as she is much more frugal than I and she is the one who, if anything, keeps in check my spending 

Misha, that wasn't a slam. You've made many posts on the matter. To each his/her own. Frivolous to you is necessity for the next. As long as both man and wife expectations are met, it matters not, does it?