California CPS kidnaps Russian baby

[Shadow]

There was no hostage situation Shadow. Why do you guys get into all these dramatics is beyond me. Had the parents filed a hospital discharge, none of this would have ensued. Period. All other statement in this matter, as far as I'm concerned, is in the front page of this thread.

However the parents were DENIED a discharge. So how will you call it when you wish to take your child to another hospital for its safety, are denied a discharge and if you still continue the child is taken from you by force?
For me the hospital tried to cover up their mess by making the child a hostage.

Anothe thing the parents have learned is not to count on CPS to thik about the welfare of the child and parents. Procedures are far more important as people.

[Muzh]

However the parents were DENIED a discharge. So how will you call it when you wish to take your child to another hospital for its safety, are denied a discharge and if you still continue the child is taken from you by force?
For me the hospital tried to cover up their mess by making the child a hostage.

Anothe thing the parents have learned is not to count on CPS to thik about the welfare of the child and parents. Procedures are far more important as people.

You talk to the chief doctor and if (s)he is not there, then you request to talk to the hospital administrator. Just like that.

The hospital didn't covered any kidnapping. One more time, they followed procedures.

Maybe in EU you can walk in and out of an emergency room like it was a bar or a pub.

[Shadow]

You talk to the chief doctor and if (s)he is not there, then you request to talk to the hospital administrator. Just like that.

The hospital didn't covered any kidnapping. One more time, they followed procedures.

Maybe in EU you can walk in and out of an emergency room like it was a bar or a pub.

Yes we can choose to go at any time. A doctor can advise us to stay, however if we choose to go that relieves him of his liability. Simply by us walking out the door, and without having to sign any paper.

[calmissile]

I was curious about what the actual procedures and practices were at hospitals, and since no doctors or nurses have made posts to this topic I contacted my ex g/f to get her take on the subject.  She has been a hospital nurse for over 15 years in California hospitals.  She said that not all hospitals have the same procedures however these are the points she made....
1. Patients leave hospitals every day without getting releases and against medical advice.
2. Hospital staff and doctors simply make notations in the patients records that they left against the advice of the medical staff.
3. Police are not typically called unless there are very special circumstances.
4. Special circumstances incude mental patients, patients suffereing from illnesses that would cause them to get lost and not find their way home, patients that are a risk to public safety.   It is not against the law to leave a hospital even against the recommendations of the staff.

As to my own commnets...
This case is bizaar.  What is so damning about CPS was pointed out by Mendy.  CPS waited over 24 hours to have the child kidnapped by the police.  Also, the police and CPS were aware that the child was not in any danger and still snatched it up without a warrant.  It will be interesting to see what the outcome is of this saga.   I suspect that any awards to the parents from a civil trial will signal who were the wrongdoers.

[GQBlues]

However the parents were DENIED a discharge. So how will you call it when you wish to take your child to another hospital for its safety, are denied a discharge and if you still continue the child is taken from you by force? For me the hospital tried to cover up their mess by making the child a hostage.

Anothe thing the parents have learned is not to count on CPS to thik about the welfare of the child and parents. Procedures are far more important as people.

A hospital has no legal right to 'deny' discharge. Where you got that information from is beyond me. Nowhere in the article, or in this particular case, did it cited the parents were denied discharge. At the very least, and since the patient is a child and is in ICU, as far as I know, the parent (which are the acting agent to the child), had to sign for an AMA (against medical advice) when they wanted to go and get a second opinion which they have every right to do..
 
If nothing else, the parent could've directed the nurse NOT to administer the antibiotic and asked for an administrator to look over this case, OR get another physician (in the hospital) to re-check baby Sammy. They have that right. If not, then they can follow a very simply procedure if they wanted to take the child out of their care and either sign proper discharge papers or, like I said, vacate the place with a signed AMA.
 
Kidnapping, hostage, denied, etc....total sensationalism. IMO, Sutter may be inplicated for misdiagnosing and mis-administration of drugs to a patient. Beyond this, the parents are just as responsible for perpetuating a situation that could've easily been avoided.
 
Oh the Dramatics!

[Misha]

I have to agree with GQBlues. Had they been a bit more patient, insisted on the discharge, then left, none of this would have happened.

[Shadow]

Only American citizens would jump through hoops of administrators, AMA's signing papers etc. And I doubt that in such situation the hospital would be so courteous as to point out proper rights and procedures. They would simply tell the parents to keep the child in the hospital and nothing else, or perhaps an appointment after 3 days with the administrator.
It sounds so good on paper, but reality is very different, and this case shows that reality.

What is completely left out here are humans. Of course human beings do not count in a procedure-led police state.

[Ranetka]

Yes we can choose to go at any time. A doctor can advise us to stay, however if we choose to go that relieves him of his liability. Simply by us walking out the door, and without having to sign any paper.

+1. If the hospital insist on medical procedure (for saving life for example) against parent's wish they will have to take a parent to court. Not the other way around. The link is re recent case re little boy with cancer.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20807984

[GQBlues]

Only American citizens would jump through hoops of administrators, AMA's signing papers etc.

LOL. Likely that's the reason why we get more things done properly and thus feel the less need to be burdened by the victim mentality you posted about earlier.
 

...and I doubt that in such situation the hospital would be so courteous as to point out proper rights and procedures. They would simply tell the parents to keep the child in the hospital and nothing else, or perhaps an appointment after 3 days with the administrator....

You can doubt yourself all the way to timbukto, it'll just be what it is - speculation. Unless of course you like govening your life with sheer speculations, then more power to you.
 

...It sounds so good on paper, but reality is very different, and this case shows that reality....

Exactly. And the reality is, had the parents taken the time to properly fill out the necessary papers, THEY would've prevented, if not themselves only, baby Sammy the predicament they put him in.

...What is completely left out here are humans. Of course human beings do not count in a procedure-led police state.

Yes. Some humans live a more orderly type of life to prevent as much unnecessary angst in life, while some humans are just built to defy every proper avenue then bitch about the consequences.
 
It's a feakin' signature on a piece of paper for chrissakes...LOL
 

[pitbull]

What really bugs me about the US sometimes is surreal inconsistency. On the one hand strictly procedural entities like CPS can wreak havoc on good families for silly transgessions from the prescribed procedures. On the other hand, in cases where horrendous neglect and stupidity of the parents do harm and actually kills the children - those parents are, according to law, are within their right and  freedom.
Those are the 2 cases I've heard about in the news TODAY ONLY:
- the second child dies in a fundamentalist christian family in PA, where the parents don't go to the doctor, but only rely on the power of prayer for healing. They have 7 more kids. Why didn't the kids get removed a couple years ago after the death of the 1st child? Well, apparently, there is a religious exemption to the law in PA, and the CPS cannot touch the kids.
http://rt.com/usa/second-child-dies-parents-pray-301/
-a 5 y.o. shot and killed his 2 y.o. sister with a RIFLE that he got as a PRESENT for his 5TH!!! Birthday, apparently when he was playing with this "present." Apparently, the gun manufacturer markets rifles to the children as young as 5 y.o. or younger as B-day presents and uses a cartoon character for their logo. Apparently, this is okay in America, the free country.
On the other hand its okay to break in and take a 5-month old from his loving parents, just because they didn't do the proper dicharge paperwork, even though the police earlier concluded that the child was completely safe.
I have to say, with all the great things I love in the US, sometimes when I watch the news, the sheer absurdity of what's happening just takes me aback.

[Shadow]

LOL. Likely that's the reason why we get more things done properly and thus feel the less need to be burdened by the victim mentality you posted about earlier.
 
You can doubt yourself all the way to timbukto, it'll just be what it is - speculation. Unless of course you like govening your life with sheer speculations, then more power to you.
 
Exactly. And the reality is, had the parents taken the time to properly fill out the necessary papers, THEY would've prevented, if not themselves only, baby Sammy the predicament they put him in.

 
Yes. Some humans live a more orderly type of life to prevent as much unnecessary angst in life, while some humans are just built to defy every proper avenue then bitch about the consequences.
 
It's a feakin' signature on a piece of paper for chrissakes...LOL

And you will never get it until it happens to you.
At which time you will be the one bitching over everything.

[Faux Pas]

I have to say, with all the great things I love in the US, sometimes when I watch the news, the sheer absurdity of what's happening just takes me aback.

Perhaps it's amplified because this is where you are? These total absurdities are happening everywhere Pit. No matter the country, the world has gone apeshit. I'm not sure whether it is now because we hear of and every thing is reported in the 24 hour news cycles and was always happening before or now we are just hearing about it more.

[GQBlues]

And you will never get it until it happens to you.
At which time you will be the one bitching over everything.

Of course I can only hope it never happens but I honestly do not believe it will. I'm quite anal about things dealing with life and being prepared for it.

I already said upthread what wifey and I have been doing currently. I've done the same thing myself when I prepared myself for marriage/college, etc...even my first trip to Moscow - I planned things to be mutually considerate to everyone involved.

When it comes down to it, I would have had no problem taking what? 5-10 minutes to fill the forms up and sign it to insure I can get treatment and/or a second opinion for my wife, child. These are pretty basic elements of a stress-free living.

[LiveFromUkraine]

When it comes down to it, I would have had no problem taking what? 5-10 minutes to fill the forms up and sign it to insure I can get treatment and/or a second opinion for my wife, child. These are pretty basic elements of a stress-free living.

Man, I want to go to your hospital.  It seems to take more than an hour to get discharged at the hospitals I have been too.

[BillyB]

Had they been a bit more patient, insisted on the discharge, then left, none of this would have happened.

True, but Mendy has a point. If CPS did something wrong, they are liable. For example: if I call the cops for a overblown situation that was exaggerated in my head, the cops should come to the scene, evaluate the situation and realize they were not needed, but if they begin to make wrongful arrests, they will be held liable.

[Muzh]

True, but Mendy has a point. If CPS did something wrong, they are liable. For example: if I call the cops for a overblown situation that was exaggerated in my head, the cops should come to the scene, evaluate the situation and realize they were not needed, but if they begin to make wrongful arrests, they will be held liable.

Where the hell do you live? Shangri-la?

[GQBlues]

Man, I want to go to your hospital.  It seems to take more than an hour to get discharged at the hospitals I have been too.

Getting rid of HMO is a good way to start Liv. 
 
Discharge is a breeze. I've been in a hospital care for a spell and went through the discharge procedure. Normally they're already prepared even before I had the time to change from my sexy hospital fashion wear to my sexy street clothing.
 
But as far as AMA, which is totally different than your normal discharges, especially when dealing with children, I was told this is a bit more complicated for no other reason there are historical cases and data that child patients 'suffer' prolonged illnesses or even death. In this particular case however, the parents told Sutter hospital they're taking baby Sammy to another hospital/physician for a second opinion. So that was just a matter of transferring clinical data from one hospital to another, coordination, then signature. Heck, being in that shoes, I'd even call an ambulance for the transfer if it makes it easier for everyone and a second opinion is that importrant to me and my family.
 
Apparently there had been a lot of case studies done relating to AMA discharges. Having said that, due diligence is always on call.  Isn't this what responsible parents do naturally anyway?
 
A side note: Coincidentally, not too long ago my wife was sick and was suffering from flu-like symptoms. Coughing, sniffles and even fever. We did the home-based remedies of over-the-counter flu medicine and her illness persisted. So out goes The BATMAN and takes honey to our doctor and we found out it isn't flu but rather some type of viral infection. The prescription included antibiotics. In less than a week, most of her ailment was gone. The coughing took a little longer to subside but ultimately went away.
 

[GQBlues]

True, but Mendy has a point. If CPS did something wrong, they are liable. For example: if I call the cops for a overblown situation that was exaggerated in my head, the cops should come to the scene, evaluate the situation and realize they were not needed, but if they begin to make wrongful arrests, they will be held liable.

It doesn't work like that in this particular case, BillyB. CPS folks are dispatched only after they were given an order by a judge serving that locality. The police came along to ensure nothing happens when the court-order is exercised. It's a preventative measure.

[LiveFromUkraine]

Getting rid of HMO is a good way to start Liv.   

hah  I have been lucky that my hospital stays have been on the visiting side for family and an ex girlfriend.

But as far as AMA, which is totally different than your normal discharges, especially when dealing with children, I was told this is a bit more complicated for no other reason there are historical cases and data that child patients 'suffer' prolonged illnesses or even death. In this particular case however, the parents told Sutter hospital they're taking baby Sammy to another hospital/physician for a second opinion. So that was just a matter of transferring clinical data from one hospital to another, coordination, then signature. Heck, being in that shoes, I'd even call an ambulance for the transfer if it makes it easier for everyone and a second opinion is that importrant to me and my family.

Most of medical history is computerized now which allows access from different locations.  I have a feeling the couple got pissed off at the hospital and left because they said something about being yelled at.

[BillyB]

It doesn't work like that in this particular case, BillyB. CPS folks are dispatched only after they were given an order by a judge serving that locality. The police came along to ensure nothing happens when the court-order is exercised. It's a preventative measure.

It's true CPS needs a court order to enter a persons home but if parents invite CPS in willingly, they waive their 4th amendment protection. Attorney in link below talks about CPS are not your friends but your enemy when coming to your home and says they can lie about having a warrant. He also says CPS used to have a practice of assuming parents are innocent until proven guilty. Now they assume parents are guilty when accused.
 
http://bransonlegal.com/Ten_Things.html
 
Qoute from the link below. "Governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, had signed a bill that granted us the right to request an inspection appointment. This bill gave us the right to tell social workers that we would not allow them inside our house at the exact moment they popped up on us. We were under the impression that we had to succumb to Gestapo like tactics and let them in our home."
 
http://voices.yahoo.com/falsely-accused-deal-child-protection-630799.html
 
Words from an ex-CPS investigator:
 
"I wish I could shout from the highest mountain to parents to vigilantly learn their rights! If they knew what their legal rights were there would be significantly lower numbers of child removals. Social workers, unlike policemen making an arrest, are not required to inform the parents of their legal rights. All we had to do to remove a child was to show up at the home and tell the parents we came to remove the kids. Often times we would take a police officer with us (never telling the parents he was there for MY protection, not to enforce an order or warrant). 99% of the time we never had to get a warrant or court order to remove kids because the parents would be so intimidated by the officer that they would just hand their kids over and show up for court the next day. But if they had legally known their parental rights, they could simply have told me that I could not take the children unless I had a court order signed by the judge or had a warrant to remove the kids. ... the majority of times parents were just intimidated and gave consent for the whole process to begin; completely unknowing of what rights they just waived."

[BillyB]

 
Googled some more info and the Couple has their baby back and the CPS case against the parents is weak.
 
"The family reunion became possible thanks to the prejudicial agreement signed between the family’s lawyers, judges and representatives of the Child Protective Service of California. This service agreed that the ruling on taking the boy from his parents could be withdrawn.
Such prejudicial agreements are usually signed if one of the parties of the conflict is not confident enough that they would be able to protect their position in court. In this case it was this Child Protective Service which happened to be this party. From the court’s building Sammy’s parents went directly to the hospital to see their son."
 
http://beforeitsnews.com/prophecy/2013/05/happy-end-for-russian-parents-court-rules-to-return-their-baby-boy-2447230.html

[GQBlues]

LOL.
 
If you're going Google fishing, the very least you can do is put in all pertinent information...Here's the caveat from your link:
 

...Unless there is reason to believe there is immediate danger to people inside the house CPS and the police have no right to enter your home without a search warrant and if you give in to their demands you are waiving your rights. You must know, however, that if you deny them access they will immediately believe you have something to hide and call the police. Call their bluff and demand to see a search warrant. In my case, I was the only one home when they showed up and when the police arrived I thought I had no other choice but to let them in. I was wrong because they had no search warrant....

In this particular case, their likely definace to sign for an AMA was enough impetus to believe the child is in imminent danger. A judge had to 'hear' the case, agree to it before he/she can approve the matter and issue a court order of removal. As long as a court order is issued, there's no need for a search warrant. They are there to pick up a child/ren - not to search the house.
 

[calmissile]

LOL.
 
If you're going Google fishing, the very least you can do is put in all pertinent information...Here's the caveat from your link:
 
In this particular case, their likely definace to sign for an AMA was enough impetus to believe the child is in imminent danger. A judge had to 'hear' the case, agree to it before he/she can approve the matter and issue a court order of removal. As long as a court order is issued, there's no need for a search warrant. They are there to pick up a child/ren - not to search the house.

Where is the evidence that a court order was issued prior to CPS removing the child from the home?  I must have missed it somewhere.  Someone have a link?

If there was one, the judge that signed it will probably be a little miffed after discovering that CPS probably did not disclose the facts that another hospital determined there is no danger to the child.  Most judges are very reluctant to trample on citizens rights.

This would make a very interesting televised court trial.  Instead of all the speculation and opinions, the public could be educated to the law and the legitimate powers of CPS and the cops that accompany them.

GQ, you have made the same point many times about the AMA.   Yes, sitting in your armchair rationalizing how you would act in a similar situation might not be how you would really act!  I must assume that you do not have young children and do not how you would really react under similar circumstances.  Taking the cubs away from mama is likely to instill protective reactions you don't even know about.

The comments from the ex-CPS investigator are consistent with my experience and that of law inforcement officers I have talked to.  Along the same lines that she described as to the reason the cops were there; she is correct.  They do not have the authority to enforce the court order (if there was one).  They are there to 'keep the peace' (i.e. to protect the CPS officer).

FWIW.... In California, a parent with a visitation order cannot get the police to enforce the order.  I have tried it on several occasions.  The sheriff (in my case) agreed to go to the home only to 'keep the peace' while I attempted to collect my daughter for scheduled visitation.  The sheriff (and his superiors) explained that the police are not officers of the court and cannot enforce visitation orders.  The only solution they recommended was to document the incident and along with their report, to take it back to court.  It seemed a little strange that the police will not enforce a court order, but it was/is how the law is structured.

[BillyB]

LOL.
 
If you're going Google fishing, the very least you can do is put in all pertinent information...Here's the caveat from your link:
 

All pertinent information? Where is the info that CPS got a court order? Earlier, I was assuming you writing down facts about this case but if you read the attorney's website, he quotes an ex-CPS investigator who said 99% of the time CPS investigators go to a house without a court order and the cops are there only for the CPS worker's protection, not because they were directed to be there by a court order.

[GQBlues]

Where is the evidence that a court order was issued prior to CPS removing the child from the home?  I must have missed it somewhere.  Someone have a link?..

Would a link to the potty hole serve you? If you don't yet know already, CPS MUST have a court order to enforce their objective. That court order is also necessary to get a police escort.

...If there was one, the judge that signed it will probably be a little miffed after discovering that CPS probably did not disclose the facts that another hospital determined there is no danger to the child.  Most judges are very reluctant to trample on citizens rights....

Read my post on the first page.

...This would make a very interesting televised court trial.  Instead of all the speculation and opinions, the public could be educated to the law and the legitimate powers of CPS and the cops that accompany them....

You're retiree so it serves everyone well, not necessarily including you, when you stay indoors watching the tube, no?

...GQ, you have made the same point many times about the AMA.   Yes, sitting in your armchair rationalizing how you would act in a similar situation might not be how you would really act!  I must assume that you do not have young children and do not how you would really react under similar circumstances.  Taking the cubs away from mama is likely to instill protective reactions you don't even know about....

Because unlike you, if *I* don't know how to manage myself in critical moments, I need not entertain the notion of taking other folks state and well being in my 'care and disposition'.

...The comments from the ex-CPS investigator are consistent with my experience and that of law inforcement officers I have talked to.  Along the same lines that she described as to the reason the cops were there; she is correct.  They do not have the authority to enforce the court order (if there was one).  They are there to 'keep the peace' (i.e. to protect the CPS officer)....
 

FWIW.... In California, a parent with a visitation order cannot get the police to enforce the order.  I have tried it on several occasions.  The sheriff (in my case) agreed to go to the home only to 'keep the peace' while I attempted to collect my daughter for scheduled visitation.  The sheriff (and his superiors) explained that the police are not officers of the court and cannot enforce visitation orders.  The only solution they recommended was to document the incident and along with their report, to take it back to court.  It seemed a little strange that the police will not enforce a court order, but it was/is how the law is structured.

As they were with mine. So the fact you're even questioning what I've been saying likely tells me one of two things. You blindly try to go into an argument, or just like to banter for no apprent reason.