Kharkov

[Misha]

At the end of the day, if somebody wants fresh produce, it is easy enough to grow a garden. Even if you don't have a backyard, it is possible to find a community garden.

[JayH]

I disagree. For example fresh fruits, vegetables in spring, summer and fall seasons are way better than they are in 90% of places in the US.  Go to any market place in the FSU and an American store and the smell will be completely different, you will hardly smell fruits and vegetables  in the US, it may look great and fresh but it smells like plastic and tastes like plastic. You have to add different dressings in the US to give it a flavor, in Russia or Ukraine I can eat it the way it is.

I don't live in the US-- but have spent some time the over the years. I have often commented on the tasteless of the food and joked that the packaging would have more flavour.
Let me give an example-Tomatoes. The demands of the supermarkets in the US is to have a shelf life and for the food to be undamaged.In the US in the case of Tomatoes-- this was achieved by picking green unripe tomatoes,tricking them to turn to correct colour of red by use of chemicals and artificial light cycles that created a product as hard as a ball--it looked ok on the shelf-- but when eaten like that was actually unripe and tasteless.
The same system was introduced in Australia but consumer rejection on a large scale saw the large supermarket chains back peddling
to get fresh produce on their shelves.
By way of contrast-fruit and vegetables in Ukraine are largely sourced relatively close to sale site. Even bananas which came from Israel-- are only a few hour flight away( they were cheap too!!). The local markets in every city have great fresh produce and the many roadside  stalls selling local fresh food of unsurpassed flavour. Whenever I write of food-- I think of the incredible cashew nuts I bought at well organised stall on the Crimea-- cheap and wonderful flavour.
From my observation of the supermarkets in Ukraine--the fresh food sections had terrific impressive range of foods and lots of choice.

[Boethius]

Much of that depends on where one shops, as well.  Organic tomatoes sourced by Del Cabo do appear in supermarkets on the West coast, and they are excellent.  Earthbound Farms produce is also high quality.

[SANDRO43]

http://slowfood.com/

Slow Food is an international movement founded by Carlo Petrini in 1986. Promoted as an alternative to fast food, it strives to preserve traditional and regional cuisine and encourages farming of plants, seeds and livestock characteristic of the local ecosystem. It was the first established part of the broader Slow Movement. The movement has since expanded globally to over 100,000 members in 150 countries. Its goals of sustainable foods and promotion of local small businesses are paralleled by a political agenda directed against globalization of agricultural products.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_Food

'Carlin' Petrini, as he's better known in his native Piedmont and elsewhere, and Slow Food also promoted the Terra Madre project:

...to give voice and visibility to the rural food producers who populate our world. To raise their awareness, as well as that of the population at large, of the value of their work. To sustain their ability to work under the best conditions, for all of our good and for the good of the planet. For these reasons, constructing a global network—with information-sharing tools, the means to learn from each other, and opportunities for collaboration in many ways—seemed invaluable.

http://www.terramadre.org/pagine/organizzazione/

Themes dear to Slow Food and Terra Madre will probably figure prominently in our forthcoming world exhibition, to which 128 countries have already agreed to participate:

[TomT]

I don't live in Australia but I know a thing or two about American tomatoes.


The first order of business is getting them to market in one piece. Unless they get special handling, at a substantial premium in price, this necessarily means that they be picked when they are green and firm. Before they hit the shelves, the ripening process is expedited with ethylene gas. The less-than ideal flavor has more to do with being bred for long shelf life than due to the accelerated ripening.


If people want something better, at a premium price, they can opt for the vine-ripened variety. Most of these are not fully vine-ripened but they stay on the vine longer than the pedestrian types and special handling affords them the luxury of using less durable but more flavorful strains.


The ultimate tomatoes would be grown from heirloom seeds by local, chemical-conscious farmers, fully ripened on the vine and sold the same day in farmer's markets or roadside stands. Unfortunately, they sell out quickly. Short of having one's own garden, this is as good as it gets. 

[Oops]

In the FSU you go to any place no matter if it is a small supermarket or a big supermarket or an open-air market and you can find organic vegetables anywhere.

In late fall/winter/early spring? I seriously doubt that you get wonderful fresh local grown veggies and fruit anytime anyplace in FSU.   

[facetrock]

I've been in Kharkov for almost two weeks. Havent seen any fresh grown food markets. If there is a market selling food it sure as hell wasnt grown this year.

 I've been to the FSU when the fresh food markets are going strong and ate the veggies. IMO no different than our farmers market as far as quality and taste.

 Its all about perception. We have an open society and a free press that will report any kind of story weather its based on fact or fiction. We constantly here stories how some additive is bad or something will cause cancer in a lab mouse.

How many times have the press reported some type of food is bad then a few years later a study comes out that it really isnt so bad? The thing is when the press says OUR eggs are bad for you the rest of the world thinks that yes, the eggs in the USA are no good. Not their eggs.

Couple that with the obesity problem in the USA brought on by an abundance of cheap food and reaturaunts who give you servings enough for three people its little wonder the rest of the world thinks our food is bad.

 Anyone with half a brain knows additives are used in proccessed food. Not fresh food. Do you think processed food in the FSU doesnt contain additives? Bet it does.

 Across the street from me here in Kharkov is a McDonalds. Its packed all day. But I've been informed its better than the McDonalds in the USA. Really? Is that how it works?

I haven't been to Ukraine since 2006. Theres been a definite weight gain. Bad food maybe? To much cheap food? Or is it just McDonalds fault?

[Vasilisa]

In late fall/winter/early spring? I seriously doubt that you get wonderful fresh local grown veggies and fruit anytime anyplace in FSU.

We started having some veggies in our dacha and today I bought great fresh cucumbers 45 roubles/kilo in Ashan (which is a big supermarket), I seriously doubt they came from South America.

Just an observation. I have always been a big lover of vegetables, I LOVE cabbage and cabbage soups and salads. In the US I stopped eating cabbage salads with vegetable oil or no dressing at all, I tried to make salads 3-4 times and ate cole slaw 3-4 times, but gave up as it didn't taste the same, eventually I forgot about  cabbage and started using lettuce with different kinds of dressings or olive oil.

A week after my arrival my mom went shopping and bought a small cabbage for me, I felt indifferent, even forgot about it, a couple of days later I finally found it and decided to make borsht, the cabbage didn't make it as I tried it and ate it fresh without cooking, it was fresh, crunchy and yummy,  so I had to go to the store get another one for borsht. 

[Vasilisa]

 Anyone with half a brain knows additives are used in proccessed food. Not fresh food. Do you think processed food in the FSU doesnt contain additives? Bet it does.

 

I didn't say that there are no additives or GMO. I said that food in the FSU tastes different and has more flavor in it and it's not my observation only. I have heard it many times from different people including Americans living in Russia.

[Belvis]

In late fall/winter/early spring? I seriously doubt that you get wonderful fresh local grown veggies and fruit anytime anyplace in FSU.

You must being absent in FSU long time  Frankly I don't know where from they get all their fresh veggies. Uzbekistan can grow fresh stuff over whole year, greenhouse industry are growing even in Siberia, and Izrael has become permanent supplier at russian market.  Well, these producers may be out of definition for "locals", though they're russian speaking communities 
While in USA I felt the distinct difference in taste for the same food. And I found small difference from Russia if any being in Japan. Well, taste of onion or potatoes was OK, good greens, but apples and peaches in US chain stores were tasteless and I could not eat grape.  I suspect US shop chains lay in stock particular sorts of product that have long shelf time. Farmer markets  are different story, of course.

[Oops]

You must being absent in FSU long time  Frankly I don't know where from they get all their fresh veggies. Uzbekistan can grow fresh stuff over whole year, greenhouse industry are growing even in Siberia, and Izrael has become permanent supplier at russian market.  Well, these producers may be out of definition for "locals", though they're russian speaking communities 

Is it that obvious?     Yes, long time indeed, but I do visit now and then.   Ok, let's say veggies are grown in Uzbekistan and Israel by russian speaking farmers.       The problem is that they still have to be shipped and it is not possible with lots of the ripe produce.   

[Oops]

We started having some veggies in our dacha ...

What part of FSU is it, if it's not a secret?   

[Shadow]

Yes, and that is why the grow-ops are big business here. The advantage: less visible from the air and I presume that it can be grown year-round... Don't ask me whether the organic, grown in black soil pot is better, as I don't smoke any variety

Neither do I, I am just connected to all kind of people

[GregfromGa]

The first girl I ever went to see was from Kharkov. I remember her riding the train all night to see me in Kiev. Nice girl, tall, smart and her mom absolutely loved me as well as the rest of her family. I probably messed up with her. I kept thinking she just wont listen to me. She always seemed to know better but looking back maybe she did. I met my no soon to be ex wife in the train station on my return trip to see her. We rode a train from Kharkov to Simperofel. While in Yalta we were robbed or shall I say scammed. I got into a fight and wrecked the robber up pretty bad. I was lucky to not go to jail. She just wouldn't listen. I told her to not play that silly game while waiting to the boat to take us back to Alushta. She was a good girl. She would've made a good wife. I often wonder about her. I wonder what happened to her. How she is doing? Does she have a family now? She was a good girl. I probably messed up but I was always a gentleman with her. She wanted marriage. I cant help but feel like I wasted a  almost year of her life. It's one of my biggest regrets in life looking back.

[mendeleyev]

Anyone with half a brain knows additives are used in proccessed food. Not fresh food. Do you think processed food in the FSU doesnt contain additives? Bet it does.

But not to the extent of food in the USA. It is why Russia for example has banned meats like chicken and beef from the USA due to the steroids, bleaches, and additives in American meat products.

One of the most common things that can happen to a Westerner who stays for a period of time in the FSU is the loss of weight by "emptying of the intestinal track" due to diarrhea. Some of the weight loss is from increasing walking but much of it is the result of getting rid of crap that has built up in the intestines by the lack of live enzymes in food. Those live cultures, like nature intended, unfortunately have been nuked out of existence by the time USA food products hit supermarket shelves.

Across the street from me here in Kharkov is a McDonalds. Its packed all day. But I've been informed its better than the McDonalds in the USA. Really? Is that how it works?

It may not be as healthy as a home cooked meal but is better for you than a Big & Tasty in the USA. We're back to the food additives game and why American meat products aren't generally found in the FSU.

McDonalds Canada are the ones responsible for McDonalds in that part of the world; the USA McDonalds had little to do with it. Upon the arrival of Mickey D's, there was no cattle or produce industry in the FSU of either the quality or quantity to support the numbers McD needed. So, McD-Canada built and operated farms and plants. Everything from beef to potatoes to baking of buns was done by Mickey D at first. Local farms and bakeries were inadequate for the consistent quality and the sheer numbers necessary.

One of the often unsung success stories of McDonalds is the little reported strategy of assisting local FSU farmers in learning how to raise beef and chickens in large numbers. Even potatoes in the FSU were "small potatoes" in those days with inconsistent quality. Most residents raised more and better potatoes than Soviet styles collective farms. In fact during the 70s-80s the Russian government reported dacha potato crops as part of its overall potato production numbers as the Soviet collective farms performed so badly.

Today McDonalds has already closed its own plants in most locations and the few remaining are being shut down as local FSU farms have become successful, with McDonalds help we might point out, in raising the beef, the lettuce, the tomatoes, and the potatoes used in FSU McDonalds stores. Not only has it helped to build local farms, but the other products used from buns to napkins to cups have added jobs.

It is still a hamburger, but local regulations prohibit the excessive use of steroids and additives as found in your Big Mac served in Chicago, Phoenix or Charleston.

[Vasilisa]

I haven't been to Ukraine since 2006. Theres been a definite weight gain. Bad food maybe? To much cheap food? Or is it just McDonalds fault?

Oh, really?! Where in the world you haven't seen weight gain?! The UK?! Or maybe the US?!

I don't know about 2006-2013 but average Soviet women were way chubbier  and shorter than average Russian/Ukrainian women nowadays. My grandmom was a heavier teenager back in the 40-ies than many 30+ women now.

On average women tend to eat healthier now as nowadays more fresh veggies  and dairy products are available and people have more money. In  Soviet time they ate pasta and potatoes in winter time.
(The picture-Dior models in the Soviet Union, so you can compare what Soviet women looked like back in the 50-ies)

[Boethius]

Ukrainian women's bodies will follow trends, I suppose, the way WW's bodies do.  What WW wanted a huge rear end before Jennifer Lopez, Kim Kardashian, and rap stars?

In the 1980's and early 1990's, the thin women that many men here go to Ukraine to seek were considered unattractive by the locals.  My husband worked with one man with a thin wife, who was teased at work for "sleeping with a board" (though stated far more crudely). 


There's a trend toward fuller women there again, or so I've been told.

[Boethius]

One of the most common things that can happen to a Westerner who stays for a period of time in the FSU is the loss of weight by "emptying of the intestinal track" due to diarrhea. Some of the weight loss is from increasing walking but much of it is the result of getting rid of crap that has built up in the intestines by the lack of live enzymes in food. Those live cultures, like nature intended, unfortunately have been nuked out of existence by the time USA food products hit supermarket shelves.

I won't comment on the rest of your post, but foods don't build up in the intestines, unless you have muscle or nerve damage, and you will then require medical treatment.  Enzymes can aid in digestion and in getting things "moving", though. 


I suspect the lack of processed food it what causes the weight loss.   

[Ade]

I won't comment on the rest of your post, but foods don't build up in the intestines, unless you have muscle or nerve damage, and you will then require medical treatment.  Enzymes can aid in digestion and in getting things "moving", though. 

Yes, that's an old wives tale continually perpetuated by various alternative remedy suppliers. And the ignorant of course.

I suspect the lack of processed food it what causes the weight loss.

Diarrhoea will also cause a certain amount of dehydration which, in its extremes, will reduce someone's weight quite drastically and quickly.

[mendeleyev]

Bo, you are correct as digestive enzymes do operate in the stomach and are also present in the gastrointestinal tract.

[JayH]

I've been in Kharkov for almost two weeks. Havent seen any fresh grown food markets. If there is a market selling food it sure as hell wasnt grown this year.

 I've been to the FSU when the fresh food markets are going strong and ate the veggies. IMO no different than our farmers market as far as quality and taste.

 Its all about perception. We have an open society and a free press that will report any kind of story weather its based on fact or fiction. We constantly here stories how some additive is bad or something will cause cancer in a lab mouse.

How many times have the press reported some type of food is bad then a few years later a study comes out that it really isnt so bad? The thing is when the press says OUR eggs are bad for you the rest of the world thinks that yes, the eggs in the USA are no good. Not their eggs.

Couple that with the obesity problem in the USA brought on by an abundance of cheap food and reaturaunts who give you servings enough for three people its little wonder the rest of the world thinks our food is bad.

 Anyone with half a brain knows additives are used in proccessed food. Not fresh food. Do you think processed food in the FSU doesnt contain additives? Bet it does.

 Across the street from me here in Kharkov is a McDonalds. Its packed all day. But I've been informed its better than the McDonalds in the USA. Really? Is that how it works?

I haven't been to Ukraine since 2006. Theres been a definite weight gain. Bad food maybe? To much cheap food? Or is it just McDonalds fault?

I don't know your story at all-only what I have read in this thread. What I can see is an "attitude" !!
In forum today/yesterday Vasillisa made some comments to CDW--in train thread-- maybe they can apply to you also?
For me one of the interesting parts of being in a new country and culture is to see and learn how people live.I would suggest that if you have not seem markets in Kharkov you need to get out and about and start opening your eyes( and mind) as to what is going on around you. Some of the supermarket style places have strong fresh food sections more like market style.
Your attitude seems to display a chip on your shoulder--praise  for FSU seems to equal a negative criticism of US-- I am sure that you can get fresh produce in the US-- but it is not available to the very large percentage of the population.That huge majority does not shop specifically at farmers style markets in the US--effectively they take what the supermarket chains dish up to them.By way of comparison-the European cultures tend to buy closer to the intended use time with a greater emphasis on quality and fresh!!
The part where you get ridiculous is about additives and processed foods-- being ignorant of the proven facts of the detrimental potential to ones health  is no excuse to attempt to change the fact of the matter. I am guessing you are also a smoker-- and believe it is not harming you?

[SANDRO43]

"emptying of the intestinal track" due to diarrhea.

...which results in a brownish express train rushing out of the dark tunnel ? A rather poetic railway man's description of the unstoppable movements of his digestive tract .

[Oops]

Urban legend says that the best way to get thin is to get yourself nice and hungry intestinal worm.   

[Oops]

On average women tend to eat healthier now as nowadays more fresh veggies  and dairy products are available and people have more money.

Are you talking about FSU or the Independent State of Moscow?   

[mendeleyev]

Thank you Sandro. I'm tracting with you now and will try to stay on tract. 

Sandro, I think it was Yuri Andropov who led the KGB from 1967-1982 and then became General Secretary of the Communist Party (leader of the Soviet Union) for 15 months before his death who used "bee sting therapy" to combat arthritis. Does that sound right to you? I know that it was a KGB leader during that approximate time period. Aides would bring bees in jars and hold the jar again his skin while the bees stung him for a minute or so.