Who is the "educated man" in RW profiles

[pitbull]

I did not say they became more stupid. Seems you managed to make my point. Thanks

I said more narrow minded. Example, someone with PHD, is likely to focus on his field of studies.
Thus allows him less time to see the bigger picture.

Narrow minded? Apparently, you do not have a PhD nor do you have an idea of what is entailed. PhD is obtained through rigorous high-level analytic work and study of the scientific method. Yes, a person becomes a specialist in a narrow topic. However, both those analytic skills and a certain way of thinking, problem solving and forecasting as well as intellectual discipline  is the true transferable set of skills that matters in the end. This is what separates an amateur from a professional.


Why do you think leading consulting firms like to hire PhDs in quantitative areas from the leading research Universities? McKinsey reps swarm MIT campus every year trying to snatch the best of them. Yep, it is because of their training and analytical skills that these guys and girls can help solve highly variable, long-term, multimillion issues for the leading world companies. They are the ultimate innovators. They are the ultimate "bigger picture" analytics. They might never even touch that "narroew field" they did they PhD in.


I have a PhD in philosophy, but currently I crunch numbers (big numbers), and do financial forecasting for a living. The core skills are essentially the same.

Not sure who said this, but I like: "What stays after we forget most of what we learned at college? - Education"

Narrow minded, my ass!!!

[SANDRO43]

Formal education and/or intelligence: do they go hand-in-hand, or not? A Hamlet-like dilemma .

I'd say it depends on the individual, proofs benefitting either side of the debate. IMHO:

- Formal education often implies intelligence to endure/acquire and, mostly, to 'exploit' successfully afterwards. However, it is too often available only to the privileged who can afford long, 'unproductive' school periods , and we are told here of many cases where noteworthy results were obtained thanks to cleverness/relations/money rather than merit.

- 'Uneducated' intelligence is often quicker in obtaining tangible results, but may lack the wider scope that formal education usually affords to many.

However, here's a personal recollection: the Italian school system is based on 3 different types of high school - classical lyceums (with mandatory subjects like Latin, Greek, philosophy, etc.), technical institutes (strictly 'practical'), and scientific lyceums (sort of a mild midway between the previous two). The big difference was that only graduates from a lyceum once (up to the 1950s) could gain access to a university. 

This barrier was eventually and gradually removed altogether. I was astonished to hear in the 1960s comments from my former fellow 'techies' who entered some chemical faculty: during their first 2 years they led the pack hands down, but in the following 3 years they were usually overtaken in academic success by students from classical lyceums, with absolutely no grounding in science and technical subjects , apparently.

Why? You work it out, I don't think it may apply to Italy only .

On the other hand, an intelligent, unschooled individual may feel the urge to widen his/her horizons with some deeper reading than an 'how-to' manual, maybe after having been turned off from formal schooling owing to all-too-often uninspired/uninspiring teachers .

[SANDRO43]

Damn that MS diploma - stripped me of my original intelligence!...   

Or snuffed out by rubber fumes ?

[Ooooops]

Or snuffed out by rubber fumes ?

Yeah, I should have worn a gas mask...   

[OlgaH]

Not sure who said this, but I like: "What stays after we forget most of what we learned at college? - Education"

Albert Einstein in his "Out of My Late Years":

Thus the wit was not wrong who defined education in this way: "Education is that which remains, if one has forgotten everything he learned in school"

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q1UxYzuI2oQC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

[pitbull]

Albert Einstein in his "Out of My Late Years":

http://books.google.com/books?id=Q1UxYzuI2oQC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Bingo, Olga!

[OlgaH]

Guys, just stay away from calculus 

Dr. Foreman: The kid was just taking his AP calculus exam when all of a sudden he got nauseous and disoriented.     
Dr. House: That's the way calculus presents

[Gator]

Albert Einstein in his "Out of My Late Years":

Einstein was a genius.  Did you know that when Einstein researched a new subject, people described him as slow in the beginning.  However, he eventually caught up, and then came the best part - he kept learning and passed everyone.   

[GoodOlBoy]

My sergeant taught me that fact when I was a young second lieutenant. 

Gator, I am glad to hear that you weren't the "typical" 90 Day Wonder. 
Your attitude probably served you well and got your ass home alive and in one piece.
 
GOB

[Gator]

Gator, I am glad to hear that you weren't the "typical" 90 Day Wonder. 
Your attitude probably served you well and got your ass home alive and in one piece.
 
GOB

Not to worry, I was in the Corps of Engineers, and never in combat.  Just worked 6 1/2 days per week from sunrise to sunset.
 
Got shot at once, when the 18-yo warrant officer  pilot flew where he should not have flown.  It sounded like shots but the pilot denied it not wanting me to report anything.  No damage to the copter. 
 
Closest encounter with danger, coming eyeball to eyeball with a King Cobra when doing a bridge recon. 

[Muzh]

IQ is not the measure of intelligence, it is the measure, of the ability to learn.

Most highly educated people have a narrow thought track. Culture has what to do with education?

Funny thing, the higher the education, the snottier people become. not more knowledgeable, because they already believe they know all. So after school they learn less. Perception is a funny thing. What it says on paper rarely translate to reality.

Seems like many have a degree, BS 

Hey, Hey Hey, I take offense to that! 

[Muzh]

I did not say they became more stupid. Seems you managed to make my point. Thanks

I said more narrow minded. Example, someone with PHD, is likely to focus on his field of studies.
Thus allows him less time to see the bigger picture.

Now being serious, that is an interesting observation you make.

Do you deal with PhDs on a regular basis? I do.

In part you are correct. When they are at work, all they do is talk about the same subject. However, you'd be surprise that the conversation is very fluid, not rigid t all.

Now, get them at a BBQ after a few drinks and a couple of doobies. (GASP!!!! Did I say that?)

You'd be surprised about the endless topics they talk about. Of course, there will be one or two who will try to steer the conversation to 'shop talk' but they are quickly rounded up and corralled in the living room, usually next to a computer. There, knock yourselves out.

Between you and me, the comment you made is rather narrow-minded and not based in facts.

[Muzh]

Narrow minded? Apparently, you do not have a PhD nor do you have an idea of what is entailed. PhD is obtained through rigorous high-level analytic work and study of the scientific method. Yes, a person becomes a specialist in a narrow topic. However, both those analytic skills and a certain way of thinking, problem solving and forecasting as well as intellectual discipline  is the true transferable set of skills that matters in the end. This is what separates an amateur from a professional.




Narrow minded, my ass!!!

 

[Muzh]

Formal education and/or intelligence: do they go hand-in-hand, or not? A Hamlet-like dilemma .

Sandro, if I may.

There have been documented instances of uneducated people making incredible findings or assertions. Most of the time, the reasons for these people being uneducated are not fully explored.

Maybe the person couldn't afford the level of education needed by other to reach such achievements.

Or, maybe their social behavior just pushed them towards a non-academic journey.

NOW, imagine that in these two examples, they DID have the resources or desire to follow an academic discipline. Imagine the possibilities.

[Muzh]

Einstein was a genius.  Did you know that when Einstein researched a new subject, people described him as slow in the beginning.  However, he eventually caught up, and then came the best part - he kept learning and passed everyone.   

He did his best work day-dreaming.

[jone]

Einstein was a genius.  Did you know that when Einstein researched a new subject, people described him as slow in the beginning.  However, he eventually caught up, and then came the best part - he kept learning and passed everyone.   

Albert -  This is a woman . . . . . . . 

[Noch1]

Now being serious, that is an interesting observation you make.

Do you deal with PhDs on a regular basis? I do.

In part you are correct. When they are at work, all they do is talk about the same subject. However, you'd be surprise that the conversation is very fluid, not rigid t all.

Now, get them at a BBQ after a few drinks and a couple of doobies. (GASP!!!! Did I say that?)

You'd be surprised about the endless topics they talk about. Of course, there will be one or two who will try to steer the conversation to 'shop talk' but they are quickly rounded up and corralled in the living room, usually next to a computer. There, knock yourselves out.

Between you and me, the comment you made is rather narrow-minded and not based in facts.

Well considering you don't know me, I guess it is your opinion.
Mostly based on my findings, dealing with people at many levels.

Another example, a part time 16 year old  employee, came up with a companies best seller
highest profit item. How many PHD's would have even listen to this person?
Likely would have sent her for coffee 

All this said, the last few years and going forward you will find less educated
success, do to the fact it is next to impossible to even get in the door without the Minimum education.

If you are limited to a narrow group of people, then likely your views would support what you see.
So each view is different, based on how broad your scope is.
 

[SANDRO43]

Sandro, if I may.

Be my guest .

There have been documented instances of uneducated people making incredible findings or assertions. Most of the time, the reasons for these people being uneducated are not fully explored. Maybe the person couldn't afford the level of education needed by other to reach such achievements.

IMHO, it boils down to 2 basic aspects, the former stronger than the latter:

1. Motivation, be it internal (self-motivation) or external (inspiration)
2. Possibility (various resources involved, money being a key one)
 

NOW, imagine that in these two examples, they DID have the resources or desire to follow an academic discipline. Imagine the possibilities.

Quite agree. I'll cite again a theoretical 'study' of mine. In 1983 I was asked to develop an IBM course on the newly announced Lotus spreadsheet (my 1st reaction then being: What the f**k is a spreadsheet ?).

Anyway, I got down to the job and had to come up with a 'demo' showing its capabilities for all to understand, not exactly easy since my likely 'students' would come from all walks of our customer domains (financial, manufacturing, retail, etc.). I first considered Personnel Depts. (Human Resources now ) as a possible area of shared interest, but found it rather boring so I came up with something that interested ME, and fortunately met with my audience's eventual approval: MUSIC!

I prepared a spreasheet with anagraphic data of 169 classical composers (17th to 20th century), which turned out to be a veritable mine of unexpected information. Germane to this discussion, it revealed that most composers from sizable countries (e.g. Austria, France, Italy, etc.) were born in their respective capitals, which implied the 2 above factors. 

Heaven knows how many masterpieces we may not have heard because, say, a young, musically talented mountain shepherd, asking his father for help in pursuing his avocation, was given a kick in his threadbare pants and told to mind the sheep, not daydream .

[Muzh]

Well considering you don't know me, I guess it is your opinion.
Mostly based on my findings, dealing with people at many levels.

Another example, a part time 16 year old  employee, came up with a companies best seller
highest profit item. How many PHD's would have even listen to this person?
Likely would have sent her for coffee 

All this said, the last few years and going forward you will find less educated
success, do to the fact it is next to impossible to even get in the door without the Minimum education.

If you are limited to a narrow group of people, then likely your views would support what you see.
So each view is different, based on how broad your scope is.

You are correct I don't know you. However, you are giving me the impression, at a minimum, that you have a strong bias against PhDs or people with higher degrees.
 
Notice I am NOT arguing AGAINST what people without college education CAN accomplish. All I'm saying that IF they can accomplish all that WITHOUT a proper education, imagine the possibilities s/he can accomplish as Sandro explained above.

[Ooooops]

However, you are giving me the impression, at a minimum, that you have a strong bias against PhDs or people with higher degrees.

Sour grapes syndrom? 

[Noch1]

You are correct I don't know you. However, you are giving me the impression, at a minimum, that you have a strong bias against PhDs or people with higher degrees.
 
Notice I am NOT arguing AGAINST what people without college education CAN accomplish. All I'm saying that IF they can accomplish all that WITHOUT a proper education, imagine the possibilities s/he can accomplish as Sandro explained above.

Actually, I have no problem with higher education and promote it more often than not.
I have actually gone back to school at times to increase my own education. Quit enjoy it.
Believe it is valuable in many ways.

What I don't agree with is that for each person it is required for success or culture.
I believe many people are intelligent and an education is only one avenue to the future.
School does not create intelligent people, they already have this.
For some it is a must, for some it is a waste of time. But to pigeon hole anyone based on a piece of paper
or lack of only describes the person looking.

Jobs, Buffet and Gates, are drop outs 

[Fashionista]

I guess there you have your answer for why RW look for educated men. So they don't have to listen to this nonsense - education is bad for you - at home.

[Faux Pas]

Actually, I have no problem with higher education and promote it more often than not.
I have actually gone back to school at times to increase my own education. Quit enjoy it.
Believe it is valuable in many ways.

What I don't agree with is that for each person it is required for success or culture.
I believe many people are intelligent and an education is only one avenue to the future.
School does not create intelligent people, they already have this.
For some it is a must, for some it is a waste of time. But to pigeon hole anyone based on a piece of paper
or lack of only describes the person looking.

Jobs, Buffet and Gates, are drop outs 

Warren Buffet? He has a Masters in Economics from Columbia

[vwrw]

I guess there you have your answer for why RW look for educated men. So they don't have to listen to this nonsense - education is bad for you - at home.

Yes, listening to nonsense requires much patience.  But women are adults and are less impressionable since their values often have been rooted in them early in their lives. Can you imagine that your children would be exposed to this nonsense since their youth? I cannot imagine how I would react seeing the father of my child telling him or her that education is not important.     

[Voyager36]

I guess there you have your answer for why RW look for educated men. So they don't have to listen to this nonsense - education is bad for you - at home.

That wasn't what I read in his post, what he was saying is that higher education isn't for everyone, nor is it a prerequisite for a healthy happy life.

I cannot imagine how I would react seeing the father of my child telling him or her that education is not important.

Education is important, and I doubt that there would be too many normal fathers who would expound the belief that it's superfluous. The question is about higher learning, beyond high school, and whether it's required for a successful career or fulfilling life.
 
If a child (presumably teenager) was totally failing in his studies and had shown no aptitude for higher learning, then hopefully the parents would try to encourage them to explore other options, rather than to demand that they keep trying something that isn't working, or to fracture the family relationship.