The media in America is lying to us. What is going on in Turkey?

[Faux Pas]

The last time I was in Turkey the Western part had a 'Christian Islam'.
Meaning people were behaving like Europeans and Americans in taking liberties when looked at the literal interpretation.
The eastern part (past Ankara) from where most European immigrants came however was more strict. This was noticed when you took a flight to the Eastern part. In the route from Amsterdam to Istanbul you would see the women enter in the plane in traditional Muslim clothes. During the flight they would go to the restroom, appearing in modern dress and with make-up. On the route from Istanbul to the Eastern part (and on the route from IStanbul to Amsterdam) this process would be reversed.
After Ataturk created a government with separation of Church(/Mosque) and State, it became a rule no religious symbols were allowed to wear when working in Government duty. Indeed in Istanbul or Iszmir and even Ankara you would never see a female Government official dressed with a headscarf, let alone more traditional clothing. Also in most of the shops dress was European.

A modern Muslim state seemed very possible there at that time.

There are some who hold the idea that, that is why Turkey is going through what it is now. That the protests are designed to enforce a government more in line with the Sharia. Those same folks say the Arab Spring uprisings were for the same reason. One thing those all had in common were dictators

[Vasilisa]

Now this is exemplary, you attempt to tell how good Islam is by telling how bad Christianity is? Good going 

No, it was an attempt to ask you why you called all muslims bloody murderers that kill and enslave everyone after mentioning a couple of conflicts and an execution of a 14 yo boy.
I gave you plenty of historical facts where christians acted in the same or even worse way but still you don't call them bloody murderers.Why?
 Let's look at Hiroshima/Nagasaki, let's look at those who started WWI, WWII, nazi camps, Stalin was a Christian priest btw, but it doesn't count.

Instead of giving a direct  answer you kept on  "OMG, how dare you!!!" drama, if I need drama in my life I go in a theatre.

[Boethius]

Stalin was never a priest.  He was expelled from the seminary for petty theft.  He was an avowed atheist.

The Nazis were not all Christians either.  The Nazi's first "Christmas" celebration, in 1920, was a solstice (i.e. pagan) celebration.  They are also known for their early persecution of Catholics who objected to Nazi dogma.

[Vasilisa]

Stalin was never a priest.  He was expelled from the seminary for petty theft.


The Nazis were not Christian believers either.

Well,  how come they all went to Christian churches then and killed German soldiers had crosses on them?!
Anyway, they were not muslims either. So why are ALL the muslims called murderers and barbarians so easily by the people who nations/religions used to do a lot of terrible things in the past, too.

Lack of information, misgiving facts, ignorance, or?!

[Shadow]

There are some who hold the idea that, that is why Turkey is going through what it is now. That the protests are designed to enforce a government more in line with the Sharia. Those same folks say the Arab Spring uprisings were for the same reason. One thing those all had in common were dictators

Do not mix things. The current government lead by Erdogan is attempting the direction towards more Islamic values, the protestors are the one who wish to remain secular.

As for democratic values, the election for Erdogan was not any different from elections in Syria or Egypt, and neither is his reaction to protests.

[Faux Pas]

No, it was an attempt to ask you why you called all muslims bloody murderers that kill and enslave everyone after mentioning a couple of conflicts and an execution of a 14 yo boy.

Where did I call all Muslims bloody murderers? Please point that out because apparently it is what you used to go off  on a rant about Christianity. I asked you how you could be so familiar with Muslims as neighbors and still know nothing of the Koran or the Islamic faith? It is what it is. I didn't make this shit up. 

I gave you plenty of historical facts where christians acted in the same or even worse way but still you don't call them bloody murderers.Why?
 Let's look at Hiroshima/Nagasaki, let's look at those who started WWI, WWII, nazi camps, Stalin was a Christian priest btw, but it doesn't count.

Instead of giving a direct  answer you kept on  "OMG, how dare you!!!" drama, if I need drama in my life I go in a theatre.

While you are pointing the other out, please point this out, too.  Most wars and conflict throughout the annals of history are done in the name of religion, not necessarily Christianity as you who to proclaim here. My comments despite your claims otherwise had nothing to do with Christianity.

Vasilisa you are just contrary and wish to disagree for the sake of disagreement. Nothing wrong with that except when you do it without any basis or fact, you look foolish as you have here.

[Faux Pas]

Do not mix things. The current government lead by Erdogan is attempting the direction towards more Islamic values, the protestors are the one who wish to remain secular.

As for democratic values, the election for Erdogan was not any different from elections in Syria or Egypt, and neither is his reaction to protests.

I'm not mixing anything shadow. That's what we see on the surface but, religion is power especially in that part of the world. What you are shown may not be what is.

[Boethius]

Well,  how come they all went to Christian churches then and killed German soldiers had crosses on them?!
Anyway, they were not muslims either. So why are ALL the muslims called murderers and barbarians so easily by the people who nations/religions used to be a lot of terrible things in the past, too.

Lack of information, misgiving facts, ignorance, or?!

Not every German was a Nazi, just as not every Russian was a communist.

The Nazis wanted to control the Catholic Church in Germany.  Before the Nazis took power, Catholic bishops preached about the evils of Nazism, particularly its racist ideology.  However, when the Nazis took power, the Concordat was negotiated (a treaty between the Nazi government and the Catholic Church), so bishops were no longer allowed to preach against the Church.  Some priests still did, and many Catholic priests ended up in concentration camps.  From a 21st century perspective, we often judge the Concordat but, as with the Orthodox Church's relations with the CPSU, the Church's relationship has to be judged in the times, taking into consideration the perspective of their very survival.  But, even after the Concordat, the Nazis closed Catholic kindergartens, banned crucifixes from schools, and closed Catholic newspapers.  After the Nuremberg laws were enacted, some German bishops and priests defied the Concordat, and did preach about the evilness of these racist laws, which were contrary to Catholic beliefs.

Why?  Because, as Sandro noted, Islam has not had a Renaissance.  Non Muslims do not have equal rights in most Muslim countries, and did not, even in Andalusia, which is considered now to be the most tolerant Islamic state to have existed.  It was, BTW, conquered by Muslim hardliners, who objected to the tolerance afforded Christians and Jews.

[Vasilisa]

I'm not mixing anything shadow. That's what we see on the surface but, religion is power especially in that part of the world. What you are shown may not be what is.

INFORMATION is power.
You can tell or not tell things, or misgive them, or ignore them intentionally and it will lead to anything.
You can fake a fact and send it to a social network, millions of people "like" it and "share" it and the financial market is in crisis.
This is power.

[Vasilisa]

Not every German was a Nazi, just as not every Russian was a communist.

Many Fox news fans  would disagree. 

For example I've never been a communist or socialist and no matter what my words were Fox news watchers treated me as a socialist/communist and tried to inform me on why I am wrong even if I had the same point of view.

[The Natural]

You really need to brush up on and understand Islam before making statements like this. Islam hasn't changed. It won't change. Change is against Islam. It is the religion of Islam to kill or enslave all non-believers. Where do you fit in there? It is not a religion of peace. Just because you happen to know a good Muslim doesn't change the tenets of the faith

Exactly right. And may I add that islam is not only a religion, it is a political system, a state if you will, and their main goal is to, by force if necessary, create a New world order of islam with sharia law. Westerners are very naive about this.
It is pointless to talk about moderate muslims because although they may be nice people living in a secularly dominated society, they will submit to sharia law the minute they are forced to do so, if it comes to that. It's either that or execution and that goes for the rest of us too. I personally would trust a Muslim only when he or she denounce sharia law. But then, would that person really be a Muslim anymore?

[Faux Pas]

Exactly right. And may I add that islam is not only a religion, it is a political system, a state if you will, and their main goal is to, by force if necessary, create a New world order of islam with sharia law. Westerners are very naive about this.
It is pointless to talk about moderate muslims because although they may be nice people living in a secularly dominated society, they will submit to sharia law the minute they are forced to do so, if it comes to that. It's either that or execution and that goes for the rest of us too. I personally would trust a Muslim only when he or she denounce sharia law. But then, would that person really be a Muslim anymore?

Not according to the Koran

[Shadow]

I'm not mixing anything shadow. That's what we see on the surface but, religion is power especially in that part of the world. What you are shown may not be what is.

So far all people I know supporting the demonstrants there are secular, where those supporting Erdogan are more on the religious side.
There is a possibility of a false flag operation where to good Western example the demonstration will be used to create laws that enhance the grip of the government, but current demonstrants are not supporting any stricter laws.

[Shadow]

Not according to the Koran

According the the Koran, most Muslims are not Muslim.

[The Natural]

... I personally would trust a Muslim only when he or she denounce sharia law. But then, would that person really be a Muslim anymore?
 

Not according to the Koran

I didn't think so either. Now we're getting somewhere with all this. Isn't this the core issue western apologetics for the state of islam have to think very carefully about before issuing pc statements, peace and love and all that in support of islam?

[OlgaH]

Btw, here, where I live we have a lot of Muslims with Russian names and Islamic surnames, they look like Tatars but go to Christian churches, most of them are descendants of the Tatars who have been tortured and baptised by Ivan the Terrible in 1552, there are caves under the city where you can see a lot of hooks where the Christian soldiers hang the Muslims and were beating them and torturing until they wish to become Christians, some of them died/were executed.

Ivan the Terrible was a Christian and obviously loved people, hence the name.

and as a traditional Christian you most likely familiar with the passage below 

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die. - Dt.13:6-10

BTW in the light of the close collaboration of the current Russian regime and the Russian Orthodox Church  you should be very careful what you write and say  about any religion and especially Christianity in Russia, otherwise you can easily face the The Criminal Code Of The Russian Federation Article 282. Incitement of National, Racial, or Religious Enmity 

[SANDRO43]

A rather thorny issue, fraught with second-hand information/downright misinformation, cultural prejudices/misunderstandings, etc - not at all surprising, where religion is concerned, regardless of its type .

First of all, how many posters here have taken the trouble of READING at least a few sūrahs (chapters) from the Quran, to get at the original source? I bet not many, although it's the only way a serious scholar would address the problem .

Granted, it's heavy reading - its 1st sūrah is basically a rewrite of Genesis/Exodus where descendance is claimed from Abraham - and not many may as well have bothered to read the whole Torah (Old Testament) as well, whether Jews or Christians. Furthermore, the Quran sould not be read in translation - it's forbidden to alter even one of Muhammad's words - but any translation can give one at least a partial glimpse of that mental world.

A few examples off the top of my head: therein the Jihad is a DEFENSIVE war invoked against invaders/aggressors of ANY creed - any other interpretation is NOT in line with the text, regardless of the proponent. Non-believers are called kafirs - i.e. 'disbelievers' but actually meaning 'those who conceal [the truth]' and therefore beneath contempt - which became a derogatory term for blacks in South Africa because they had heard Arab slave traders apply it to their raided 'properties'. They are not even worth the trouble of converting, there have never been any Islamic missionaries trying to have 'pagans' around the world see the True Light .

Both ancient religious texts present similar problems of interpretation because they were written in OLD languages - the Torah is even worse, having been put down in written form probably as late as the IX century BC, hence a voluminous Talmud aiming to explain it. Both were tribal religions, as Omar Sharif stressed in Muzh's post for Islam.

As many other religions, Islam has several different 'schools of thought', the main divide existing between Sunnis and Shias which originated - again not surprisingly - from a quarrel after Muhammad's death about who was his rightful heir. A similar quarrel took place between St. James and St. Paul, IINM .

Unlike Judaism and Christianity, where religious authorities and/or scholars are not as rigidly bound to their founding texts and can therefore offer interpretations gradually more in line with current times, Islam has no real equivalents except for Shia Imams - not really the epitomes of modern thought, though .

Therefore, any Muslim regime can find in the Quran a stricter or softer (e.g. Ataturk, Qaddafi, Saddam Hussein, etc.) line to follow regarding the Shariah (moral code and religious law) without being blatantly blasphemous - marriages between religion and power are almost as old as the world.

[Faux Pas]

A rather thorny issue, fraught with second-hand information/downright misinformation, cultural prejudices/misunderstandings, etc - not at all surprising, where religion is concerned, regardless of its type .

First of all, how many posters here have taken the trouble of READING at least a few sūrahs (chapters) from the Quran, to get at the original source? I bet not many, although it's the only way a serious scholar would address the problem .

Granted, it's heavy reading - its 1st sūrah is basically a rewrite of Genesis/Exodus where descendance is claimed from Abraham - and not many may as well have bothered to read the whole Torah (Old Testament) as well, whether Jews or Christians. Furthermore, the Quran sould not be read in translation - it's forbidden to alter even one of Muhammad's words - but any translation can give one at least a partial glimpse of that mental world.

A few examples off the top of my head: therein the Jihad is a DEFENSIVE war invoked against invaders/aggressors of ANY creed - any other interpretation is NOT in line with the text, regardless of the proponent. Non-believers are called kafirs - i.e. 'disbelievers' but actually meaning 'those who conceal [the truth]' and therefore beneath contempt - which became a derogatory term for blacks in South Africa because they had heard Arab slave traders apply it to their raided 'properties'. They are not even worth the trouble of converting, there have never been any Islamic missionaries trying to have 'pagans' around the world see the True Light .

Both ancient religious texts present similar problems of interpretation because they were written in OLD languages - the Torah is even worse, having been put down in written form probably as late as the IX century BC, hence a voluminous Talmud aiming to explain it. Both were tribal religions, as Omar Sharif stressed in Muzh's post for Islam.

As many other religions, Islam has several different 'schools of thought', the main divide existing between Sunnis and Shias which originated - again not surprisingly - from a quarrel after Muhammad's death about who was his rightful heir. A similar quarrel took place between St. James and St. Paul, IINM .

Unlike Judaism and Christianity, where religious authorities and/or scholars are not as rigidly bound to their founding texts and can therefore offer interpretations gradually more in line with current times, Islam has no real equivalents except for Shia Imams - not really the epitomes of modern thought, though .

Therefore, any Muslim regime can find in the Quran a stricter or softer (e.g. Ataturk, Qaddafi, Saddam Hussein, etc.) line to follow regarding the Shariah (moral code and religious law) without being blatantly blasphemous - marriages between religion and power are almost as old as the world.

That's a lot of words SANDRO but you really are not saying anything.  Yes, I have read portions of the Koran mostly from a course I had in college but other occasions as well. "Most" religious text is subject to interpretation. In fact text that wasn't would be suspect as well. Like Christianity and the bible, there is much in the Koran that the Muslim scholars do agree on almost universally and not as much disagreement among them regardless of the sect or tribe.

[Shadow]

Reality is that there is actually a LOT of disagreement between them, more muslims are killed by other muslims as by Westerners.
However due to the strict interpretation of the Koran they have to remain united towards the disbelievers. This is why you seldom hear a critical tone about actions, unless some of the leading soufi's have declared the person openly non-Muslim.

[The Natural]

Like Christianity and the bible, there is much in the Koran that the Muslim scholars do agree on almost universally and not as much disagreement among them regardless of the sect or tribe.

A mistake in capital writing, I hope 

[The Natural]

I find it worthwhile listening to what a former islamist has to say about islam. He should certainly know what he's talking about:
 

 

[Faux Pas]

A mistake in capital writing, I hope 

Yup! My ignorance 

[SANDRO43]

I find it worthwhile listening to what a former islamist has to say about islam. He should certainly know what he's talking about:

Are you certain you picked up the right video ? I could not hear much reflecting its title in all of its 9'.

[cc3]

To understand why some Muslims tend to be more aggressive than others and to understand the roots of the conflicts in many regions while other Muslims live peacefully people should understand the differentce in different branches of Islam. To make it short, there are different branches of Christianity and there are different branches of Islam. Most terrorists you hear about belong to what you can call religious sects based on islamic principles.

Yes, my dear, like in Syria where Sunni jihadist terrorists and Shiite jihadist terrorists are rampantly employing the noble tactics of torture and murder of innocent, non-combative men, women, and children against each other. It soon will be Obama-supported Sunnis and Putin-supported Shiites exchanging atrocities against each other.

[calmissile]

I find it worthwhile listening to what a former islamist has to say about islam. He should certainly know what he's talking about:
 

Thanks for posting the link.  He is certainly an excellent speaker.  I watched all 22 sessions.  His humor makes it interesting as well.