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Author Topic: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness  (Read 11462 times)

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Offline jone

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Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« on: August 11, 2013, 02:54:56 AM »
I am writing the following, having again, spent a good part of the summer in Ukraine.  I have been to most of the major cities and, this summer, am living in Nikolaev:


The great majority of Ukrainians that I met are nice people.  They abide by the laws, they cook tasty food and they love their families.  Once you get past the idea that no one smiles at you on the street, you can get pretty chummy with almost anyone.  Especially being a Westerner.

I was shopping yesterday for some Kielbasa.  The lady behind the counter was coaching me on what to buy.  She told me that the medium variety was the most cost effective and the tastiest.  I found her assistance both gratifying and endearing.  I will go back to that meat stand in the future.  Nikolaev (Mykolaiv in Ukrainian) is a city of around 500,000 inhabitants.  It has exactly two supermarkets.  Neither are near the center of the city.  One is actually across the river, beyond the population center.  I live here for the summer.

The comparable countries to Ukraine that come to mind are Moldova (next door) and Belarus (also next door).  Both of these countries have backward infrastructure as well.  Yet Ukraine is constantly applying for various facets of inclusion in the European Union.  The simple truth exists that Ukraine is not a country with many natural resources – or an advanced economy.   Coupled with these disadvantages are political upheaval coupled with simplistic acts of political gangsterism that anyone observing from the West can easily discern.

I am a supporter of Ukraine.  I first came her five years ago.  Tymoshenko was Prime Minister.  Yushchenko was President.  The country was not too far removed from the Orange revolution.  Now the country is being run by Viktor Yanukovych, a hardliner whose previous history includes a conviction for robbery and assault at the age of 17.  I should point out that everyone in high public office seems to be implicated, in one way or another for various and sundry acts against each other.  The death of the oligarch Shcherban is still being debated as to whether Tymoshenko was involved, etc.

I have been here, off and on, for the past number of years.  I enjoy coming here.  Life is very simple.  But ultimately, every facet of Ukrainian society has some aspect of corruption related to it.  As Western visitors, we are exposed to the Mail Order Bride schemes that suck money from the West by advertising the beauty of the Ukrainian women.  But every possible industry that interfaces with the West or with neighboring countries has some aspect of fraud and deceit attached to it to the benefit of a small group of people who get rich, while the country remains mired in the lassitude of hopelessness.

If one reads the history of charges against Yulia Tymoshenko, it is amazing to think that she went from running a video rental store in 1995 to one of the 100 richest women in the world by the year 2000.  Her claim to fame?  Running a petro supplier to the agricultural industry.  She channeled that company into a privatized supplier of the Natural Gas Pipeline that supplied Western Europe from Russia.  To do so, most of the major politicians of the time wound up with shares of the company.
 
Recently I had a friend of mine quit the shipping industry.  Her job was to determine the moisture content of the grain shipments being delivered to Western Countries.  Her meager salary was around 1200 UAH per month.  (There are typically 8.12 UAH to a US Dollar)  But her superiors were getting paid US $25000 per transaction, by changing the moisture content of the grain.  She was the original responsible party and knew that if it were discovered, chances are that the fingers would point to her, even though she only had tacit knowledge of the activities.

To do business in Ukraine requires a big brother in political office.  You can expect at least 10% of your company handed over to someone who will be your protector from other big brothers.  Sometimes power plays are executed whereby two or more big brother entities join together to strip ownership of a company.  One wonders how the true and honest businessmen can get ahead.

If Ukraine is to advance as a nation, it will come from the one natural resource it has in abundance:  Its farmland.  Today, a successful farmer is one of the richest of all of Ukraine’s citizens.  When the company builds up its infrastructure to support the factory farm, then the trickle down impact will finally find the average Ukrainian.  Like Russia, Ukraine has yet to mobilize its capability in agriculture.  For good or for bad, foreign companies are not allowed to own Ukrainian farmland.  Estimates that I have read state that only around 40% of all tillable soil is currently in crop production.  The ancillary industry related products that would crop up with an abundance of soil under production are still lacking:  Beef and dairy and poultry, for example.

One the most pleasant surprises that I have found here in Ukraine is the price of unprocessed food.  Fruit drinks and vegetables are incredibly inexpensive.  Some of the import foods are also less expensive than the West.  The bananas that come from Israel, for example.

Ultimately, even if Ukraine were to become a full member of the European Union tomorrow (never going to happen) it would take a generation before industry would generate a substantial change in per capita income.  One last thought.  Those chat girls we keep talking about – the ones that are ‘scamming’ the Westerners?  They make between US $175 to US $375 per month, on average. 
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2013, 07:44:16 AM »
Excellent. Thanks, Jone.
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Offline ML

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2013, 08:48:12 AM »
Very nice write-up from one person's (your) point-of-view.
Thanks.

But one wonders why you wrote, "Nikolaev (Mykolaiv in Ukrainian) is a city of around 500,000 inhabitants" when you are, in fact, in Ukraine writing about Ukraine.

The Ukrainian city is Mykolaiv, which name could be spelled differently in many other countries of the world.
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Offline Patagonie

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2013, 11:29:28 AM »
Nice post Jone.

"Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, c taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, I belong to the festival.

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2013, 11:49:39 AM »
Agree and gratitude.  Ukraine has lots of mineral wealth and its people are its greatest natural resource.  Ukraine has other neighbors - Slovakia, Romania, Turkey and Poland.  Their economies are growing.  The Oligarchs cant maintain power forever.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2013, 04:19:20 PM »
Nice post Jon-- a long stay is THE best way to get the feel and learn -that is for certain. I like your comments about the people and that is consistent with my own experiences--the fun of doing everyday things and interacting is great fun and thoroughly enjoyable.
A comment of resources--Ukraine has vast tracts of quality farmland not being used.In driving across numerous areas  you see many kms & kms(miles & miles!!) of land not being used. Historically Ukraine was considered the "bread basket" of the FSU with its high quality soil producing high yields.The soil itself considered of such high quality that during German WW2 occupation   soil was actually shipped back to Germany.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline lonedrake

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2013, 10:31:38 PM »
Quote
If Ukraine is to advance as a nation, it will come from the one natural resource it has in abundance:  Its farmland.  Today, a successful farmer is one of the richest of all of Ukraine’s citizens.  When the company builds up its infrastructure to support the factory farm, then the trickle down impact will finally find the average Ukrainian.  Like Russia, Ukraine has yet to mobilize its capability in agriculture.  For good or for bad, foreign companies are not allowed to own Ukrainian farmland.  Estimates that I have read state that only around 40% of all tillable soil is currently in crop production.  The ancillary industry related products that would crop up with an abundance of soil under production are still lacking:  Beef and dairy and poultry, for example.

 I agree. What, in your opinion, is the limiting factor ? What is keeping farmers from maximizing the farmland?

Offline cc3

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2013, 10:37:07 PM »
Good, succinct report.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2013, 12:11:39 AM »
I agree. What, in your opinion, is the limiting factor ? What is keeping farmers from maximizing the farmland?

In summary---the politics. Basically it is the "who" will be the beneficiary  of  the re-using of that land .
The one certainty is that potential prosperity will not be spread around.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline jone

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2013, 02:08:23 AM »
We historically remember all of the failed efforts by communism to work the land.  The five year plans, etc?  Also we remember that the equipment was always breaking down with no ability to repair it. 

I believe that the agricultural community does not have a big enough influence in the current government.  In Russia, a foreigner can buy agricultural land (within limitations).  The concept of the factory farm that you know, Steve, in the midwest,  is non existent here.  Hybrids of corn or wheat, while they may exist, are not prevalent.  The simple fact is that the infrastructure doesn't exist yet.  There is no 'capitalist' reward for a farm cooperative that puts 20,000 acres into production. 

While these ideas are emerging, the Mom and Pop operations still operate.  Imagine what a farm would be like in the US if the super tractors and machinery didn't exist. 

The equipment and advanced crops are coming.  But very slowly.  Because the wealth is not there to begin with and there is not a dependable price on crops.  If you go out to a farm in rural Ukraine, you will still see the large numbers of unused outbuildings and machinery left over from the Soviet era.   Now contrast this picture with the farms that have emerged in Poland and the increased production there.  Ukraine is kept from its own future by its government and non-inclusion in the European Union or even the Euro Zone.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Wayne

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2013, 08:39:05 AM »
In traveling by car from Poland to Western Ukraine, and back, I noticed a large difference between the farm land in Poland compared to Ukraine. Poland was much more advanced!
 
In Ukraine, we had to stop for horse drawn wagons. Most of the work was being done by hand or with horses. There were very large hay stacks piled up by hand.
 
In the Summer, there are many road side stands where farmers were selling their crops. Most everything seemed like small scale production, except sunflowers in extremely large fields--and the vineyards in Crimea.
 
Things like corn seemed to be open pollinated rather that the hybrids we have here. I did not see any bicolor corn.
 
Olives are very popular and they have many varieties. We went to a beer factory and bought "live beer".

Offline Faux Pas

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2013, 09:28:34 AM »
My understanding of "live beer" is draft beer that was tapped and put into a container and then put up for sale. Meaning it's shelf life was most of the day

Offline jone

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2013, 12:30:07 PM »
After I wrote that post earlier, I looked at some figures for Ukraine for agriculture.  The countrywide crop yield is still below the high water yields for the Soviet era.  Since the fall of the Soviet Union the crop yields have never exceeded the yield in Soviet times.

That seems very wrong to me.  Now either it is a complete failure of the current government, or the figures from Soviet times were slightly inflated.  (Nah, that would never happen!)
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Ranetka

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2013, 01:29:27 PM »
Check the food consumption. You will be in for more shock. Or malnutrition numbers.
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I do resent the fact that most people never question or think for themselves. I don't want to be normal. I just want to find some other people that are odd in the same ways that I am. OP.

Offline TS

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #14 on: August 12, 2013, 01:55:04 PM »
Having lived in both Poland and Ukraine I found Ukraine to have far more rich people but Poland had a bigger middle class.
 I noticed a lot of men in both Ukraine and Poland work in other countries as both countries have poor economy. But this middle class in Poland is making less than $30,000 usd per year before tax.  I did notice people in Poland love to buy things on credit including houses whereas in Ukraine its more cash then credit.
Average wages in Poland were higher and the economy was ahead of Ukraine.  But majority of the jobs in Poland were Polish people doing lower to middle level jobs for foreign companies. None of these Polish people were ever going to be upper class working for these companies. Many foreign companies have no interest in Ukraine.
Overall both Poland and Ukraine have poor economies.  But Poland is still struggling to pay vendors for the Euro 2012 (debts more than 1 year past due in the billions) whereas Ukraine in better spot but not great as they do borrow a lot.
Poland has a strategic advantage as closer to Germany than Ukraine.  Many companies use Poland like USA uses Mexico to do the lower tech jobs.  But to be a top 30 economy you need to also invent things.  Neither Ukraine or Poland invent enough to be a good economy.
Russia may have a ton of resources but lack of invention causes there economy not to be great.
 
 
 

Offline ML

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2013, 02:46:41 PM »
In summary---the politics. Basically it is the "who" will be the beneficiary  of  the re-using of that land .
The one certainty is that potential prosperity will not be spread around.

In two sentences you have correctly (in my view) told of another looming disaster for Ukraine citizens and the country of Ukraine.

I can report from my personal acquaintances and my business contacts that there is movement afoot to 'steal' from current landowners in the same manner that steel factories, etc., were stolen from the country in the 1990s after breakup of FSU that occurred in both Russia and Ukraine.

It is already occurring that those in the Yanokovich administration at all levels are at work in the farmland accusing those who are current legal owners that there are problems with their land registration.  These officials then go to the corrupt courts and through friendships, etc., obtain ownership of the properties at very low or zero costs.

This has already cast a chill on the foreign business community that was looking at ways to help Ukraine develop its farm sector; and yes earn money also.
A beautiful woman is pleasant to look at, but it is easier to live with a pleasant acting one.

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2013, 03:21:27 PM »
ML:
Quote
there is movement afoot to 'steal' from current landowners in the same manner that steel factories, etc., were stolen from the country in the 1990s after breakup of FSU that occurred in both Russia and Ukraine.

It is already occurring that those in the Yanokovich administration at all levels are at work in the farmland accusing those who are current legal owners that there are problems with their land registration.  These officials then go to the corrupt courts and through friendships, etc., obtain ownership of the properties at very low or zero costs.

Sadly that is also the case with apartments in many of the bigger cities, like Kyiv and Kharkiv. Elderly pensioners are often duped and lose their homes by dishonest people who do the same as you describe. I know of a case last year where a small kitchen fire in one apartment prompted fire department inspectors to file for evictions not only on the lady who had the fire, but on the three neighbors sharing her stair landing as well. The racket was to toss the elderly on the street, re-register the apartments and to renovate and resell them for profit.

All were elderly citizens who are near the bottom rung in Ukraine's pecking order. Thankfully in this case all four were receiving food parcels and weekly nursing visits by Western missionaries who went to authorities, up the ladder beyond the ordinary fire inspectors, and with a little exposure the cochroaches vanished into the woodwork. But this is becoming a common problem and normally there is nobody to take up the cause of these folk.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 03:24:29 PM by mendeleyev »
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline fathertime

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #17 on: August 12, 2013, 05:28:17 PM »
Jone, thanks for the reporting it made for some interesting reading....I like to read a lot and I've NEVER even seen the word LASSITUDE before...so I was surprised...where are you from?  Is that a common word that I've just overlooked all these years?  I am going to try to now encompass it in my new and ever-expanding vocabulary!


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline jone

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2013, 08:01:12 AM »
Jone, thanks for the reporting it made for some interesting reading....I like to read a lot and I've NEVER even seen the word LASSITUDE before...so I was surprised...where are you from?  Is that a common word that I've just overlooked all these years?  I am going to try to now encompass it in my new and ever-expanding vocabulary!


Fathertime!

Fathertime,

Thanks, I think, for the compliment.  I am nowhere near as accomplished as Mendy when it comes to writing.  But my vocabulary comes from voracious reading.  Right now I hail from Nikolaev, but I hang my hat in Los Angeles and grew up in the Midwest.  As for 'Lassitude'?  Dunno.  Musta been on the SAT definitions when I was in high school or something.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline SANDRO43

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2013, 05:52:09 PM »
Malaise is not bad, either ;), via Medieval French too (un-ease, then dis-ease in English), like lassitude (originally from Latin lassitūdō).
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 05:55:20 PM by SANDRO43 »
Milan's "Duomo"

Offline Larry1

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2013, 06:16:52 PM »
Jone, thanks for the reporting it made for some interesting reading....I like to read a lot and I've NEVER even seen the word LASSITUDE before...so I was surprised...where are you from?  Is that a common word that I've just overlooked all these years?  I am going to try to now encompass it in my new and ever-expanding vocabulary!


Fathertime!

Mango lassitude is my favorite kind.

Offline calmissile

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2013, 06:31:27 PM »
Nice report Jon.  Your findings are also consistent with my observations.  All we can hope for is the present gangsters to be thrown out of office and replaced with better men (and women).  Not going to hold my breath! ;D

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2013, 08:13:13 PM »
20 years, this new generation wants freedom and may not be content to wait

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2013, 09:28:44 PM »
LT, I understand your frustration.

It is not freedom they desire because they can travel, live where they want, study what they wish and are not assigned dead end jobs by a party boss. Rather it is an end to corruption for which they yearn, equal opportunity, and the ability to join the middle class.

In the Orange Revolution I was fortunate to be able to stay with friends from the Kyiv Symphony and while we spent a lot of time on the ground during daylight hours, I had a comfortable and warm (too warm with those old apartment steam heating systems) place to sleep at night.

Even as an observer and not a participant, those were exciting times and my heart welled up for that brave young generation. A sharp contrast to Napoleon's evil invasion of Russia in 1812, the Russian (and Ukrainian) winter did not drive the young foot soldiers away and they held their ground, camped in tents during the cold of late November, December, and into early January until the inauguration of a legitimate president who may have tried but ultimately failed to make the revolution a success.

Unfortunately things didn't turn out so well and those young adults are now busy raising families and handling careers, something not easy to do in Ukraine today. The 20 somethings of Ukraine today aren't going to lead a revolution and neither are their older brothers and sisters. That leaves the babushki patrol and they don't have the social media skills nor the stamina.

So I think this time a revolution will be as it will be in Russia, gradual. Dictators masquerading as presidents eventually shoot themselves in the foot at some point and the good news is that the clumsy Yanukovich is akin to a one man version of the "3 Stooges" in this 21st Century. He will self destruct at some point, that you can count on. It may take some time, which might be good for Ukrainians to patiently learn about democracy and how to participate so that when the next opportunity arises it won't be wasted.

One of the keys this time will be to keep Washington, a city of well meaning but utterly misguided and idiotic fools, far away from the region so that change can both start and continue as a local and self-governing change. That is change that will last.

If wrong on the timing, I'll rejoice with you.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 10:02:18 PM by mendeleyev »
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Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine: Lassitude, Malaise and Hopelessness
« Reply #24 on: August 15, 2013, 08:02:28 AM »
So I heard from my nephew that Yanukonvikt and his gang are going to declare bankruptcy and default on the IMF loans.

As if I was surprised to hear this, but has anyone else heard something about this?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

 

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Re: Standards of showering/cleanliness required if you want an FSUW by Trenchcoat
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Re: Update - 13 years later by Trenchcoat
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Re: Update - 13 years later by northkape
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Re: What do Forum sites get right & what do Forum sites get wrong by Trenchcoat
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Re: What do Forum sites get right & what do Forum sites get wrong by Steven1971
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Re: What do Forum sites get right & what do Forum sites get wrong by Trenchcoat
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Re: What do Forum sites get right & what do Forum sites get wrong by Trenchcoat
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What do Forum sites get right & what do Forum sites get wrong by Trenchcoat
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Standards of showering/cleanliness required if you want an FSUW by 2tallbill
December 03, 2025, 09:56:02 AM

Re: Standards of showering/cleanliness required if you want an FSUW by Trenchcoat
December 03, 2025, 05:43:31 AM

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