Newbie planning WOVO to UkraineI

[Daveman]

Lesson #1:
- Braille is for the blind, not the deaf/mute .

And isn't it just a bit strange that there is braille at the drive through ATM's?  I guess that's for when the money runs out and the blind guy is the only one who hasn't been drinking.

[ML]

Then why are you doing it? Sexy bod, right? 


Come on, there are a million and one women out there that speak your language and you pick one that you can't even communicate with and have really no chance on knowing well for many, many months at best even if she learns English quickly. Anything you think you know already is possibly only half correct and probably mostly a deluded hope of what you wish it to be.


A few people have done what you're doing and they have successful marriages. Very many more have failed miserably because they married someone they didn't know.

Ade says it best.

You are being very foolish.

You and this gal are getting along so well . . . strictly because neither of you have the slightest idea what the other is thinking or saying.

[Shadow]

And isn't it just a bit strange that there is braille at the drive through ATM's?  I guess that's for when the money runs out and the blind guy is the only one who hasn't been drinking.

Sometimes you feel half of the drivers on the road are blind...

[mendeleyev]

As to what month I would be going I don't have definite plans yet but I was thinking possibly either during the Thanksgiving holiday or perhaps Christmas.

Just understand that she doesn't have Thanksgiving as a holiday so make sure that you coordinate any travel around her work days so that she can have time off. Her Christmas is 7 January and from December 31 to January 8, and in some cases for several days beyond, she may have close to 2 weeks off unless she works in retail or as a doctor/nurse or other essential occupation.

I very highly recommend that every man spent at least one New Year's celebration in the FSU--it is special, the most important holiday in the FSU and something you will talk about for decades.

BTW, the single best day of the year for cheap airfares flying out of the USA is 25 December. Fares will be lower, the plane will likely be half empty, and is often one of the most relaxing long distance flights you could imagine. You'll arrive on 26 December, Christmas isn't until early January, and you'll be just in time to see and take part in preparations for the New Year.

If you take holiday gifts, and get advice here for those, the exchange will be on New Year's as it is a New Year's gift instead of Christmas gift. The most important thing is don't overdo any gifts, they won't overdo it, and you don't want to put others in the position of feeling that they didn't do enough for you.


Now,

I have broken one of the rules by offering to pay for the lessons. I figure they are a good investment in our relationship. The cost is cheap enough that I am not overly concerned by this part. I have spent way more on car and computer parts for my hobbies.

The rules are what they are for a reason. It isn't just that you've broken a sacred rule, but what you've done is set a precedent. The more of those you set, the more unrealistic the expectations will be for both of you.

In this culture there is also an important principal of reciprocity. If you offer a van Gogh then they will feel obligated to reciprocate with a
Rembrandt. Don't put her in the position of not being able to afford to date you because an attitude of "aw, I'm well off so don't worry about it" simply won't cut it culturally.

[ML]

Don't put her in the position of not being able to afford to date you because an attitude of "aw, I'm well off so don't worry about it" simply won't cut it culturally.

Jim, I think you are off base here for the vast majority of situations.

I have met hundreds of FSU men and women.  Never encountered one who wouldn't take EVERYTHING offered by a westerner, with nary a thought to ever reciprocate; or even give a thank you.

[mendeleyev]

ML, if there is little or no respect, then of course.

Otherwise we'll agree that you can be wrong! 

[ML]

So it's OK to take all you can from a person . . . provided you don't respect them.

[Faux Pas]

Jim, I think you are off base here for the vast majority of situations.

I have met hundreds of FSU men and women.  Never encountered one who wouldn't take EVERYTHING offered by a westerner, with nary a thought to ever reciprocate; or even give a thank you.

That is certainly not my experience but, I'm not sure what you mean exactly. Example: I try to be as generous as my baggage restrictions will allow to my Russian friends, my wife's family and friends. I bring many gifts and booze (or wine)  being usually the most expensive. Sometimes I see something special that I want someone to have and have to wait up to a year before getting it to them.  They all reciprocate in some form or fashion. Perhaps not at that moment or even on that trip but, they usually reciprocate many times over with their company, gifts, meals or good times. Maybe you mean dollar for dollar? I don't personally weigh in those terms or even think about it but if I did, I'd be way behind in the ledger

[Boethius]

That's not my experience either.  Perhaps you need to start hanging out with a better class of people, ML.

[JayH]

  Never encountered one who wouldn't take EVERYTHING offered by a westerner, with nary a thought to ever reciprocate; or even give a thank you.

I do not agree with this at all. I can think of quite a few examples.While part of the mentality is that"western guy can afford it"  --that is not always the case.

One example --- I was driving rental car when I had tyre puncture. I am car competent!!!  I was having a problem with the jack-- could not get it in place to lift the car. While I was stuffing around trying to figure the best way to handle the problem-- a guy wanders over from a work site about 50 metres away-- him no English-me no Russian-- he & I try to solve the problem.After a few tries--he calls other guys over to help-- who lift the car so we can get jack in place. Collectively they all help change tyre and pack everything up and back in boot(trunk).
  Hi  5's all round( big smiles as they understand I am Aussie)-- they go to leave . I reach in pocket and offer to pay them-- attempting to hand money to the first guy-- he declines-they all decline to accept money and all headed back to their work.
  Given I was complete stranger to them-- it was very generous to assist me.I was in urban area-so it could easy to have left me to solve myself. There is a postscript to this incident-but not relevant to the principle.
  I have often seen unsolicited generous actions by Ukrainians so cannot agree with you.

[JohnDearGreen]

Mendy, would it be too impolite to ask you what year/s you are talking about?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember Mendy's partner arrived on his doorstep his first workday.
The 1st lady I met in Kyiv arrived knocking at my apt door in the morning after my arrival, and spoke good English.  Golden opportunities may occasionally happen.  But these responses are making an assumption that you will be able to find a lady possessing everything you may want and desire.  That usually doesn't  happen.  Some of the men who responded are still looking.  Add up the positives and negatives and make a decision.   Have a backup if you decide to use an interpreter.  The 1st interpreter may not work out to your liking.

[GQBlues]

So it's OK to take all you can from a person . . . provided you don't respect them.

 

An obvious symptomatic sign of 'bread' deprivation.

[ML]

That's not my experience either.  Perhaps you need to start hanging out with a better class of people, ML.

I wrote:  I have met hundreds of FSU men and women.

[mendeleyev]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but as I remember Mendy's partner arrived on his doorstep his first workday.

Sort of, because of an illness she substituted for someone else who I was expecting to meet me at the airport. I promptly blew it and it took several months to get her to say yes to meeting for lunch although we worked in the same building. Were it not for a young lady who was my office assistant who was my wing woman at times, I'd have been long forgotten. Then we dated for a year + prior to tying the knot. 

But these responses are making an assumption that you will be able to find a lady possessing everything you may want and desire.  That usually doesn't  happen.

Agreed, excellent advice to a new adventurer.

[mendeleyev]

ML, I'm sorry that your experience has been less than ideal and I don't mean to belittle your experience.

The world is full of all kinds of people and every style and type exists in every corner of the globe. What I've observed it that by demonstrating politeness and respect but without being a pushover, I've been treated as an honoured guest by perfect strangers.

I was worshiping at Saint Nikolas the Wonder Worker church in Moscow, still single. The church was built in the 1600s and had little improvements since then. Thousands of candles by worshipers and a few narrow window openings provided light, the floors were stone and original from 1629 when construction began (completed around 1674 or 1679) and the only "central heat" was body warmth from others. I was standing as normal, wearing a long overcoat, and made the misstep of putting my hands in my pockets to get them warm. That is a no-no in Orthodox worship, or even in a Russian home it is considered to be impolite.

A little babushka from the candle counter area slipped over and quietly but pointedly chided me for having my hands in my pocket. My choice at that point was to whisper that she should shove off and mind her own bees wax (pun intended) or what I did, which was remove my hands from the pockets and quietly reply, sorry and thank you in Russian. She looked for me after that and each Sunday as soon as I cleared the line outside (not as many churches were reopened and sometimes you waited for awhile before there was a spot to enter), she would step off from the counter and come guide me around others who were also buying candles as if I was deserving of being served first.

I understood that the respect I'd shown had earned her respect in return and appreciated that someone who came from a very different world than myself, I probably earned more in a day that her pension paid over several years, yet she would consider me as part of her world. It was a humbling experience. I also learned to stand without putting my hands in my pockets when indoors.


Footnote: Saint Nikolas Church recently was treated to a renovation. I had mixed feelings about some of the updated features until Mrs. M reminded me that for 400 years the building (with exception of one fire at the end of the 1690s) had been a lighthouse for so many over the years and that the renovations would hopefully add another 400 years of service to the Khamovniki region of Moscow. Patriarch Kirill was there to celebrate the new interior which tried to be faithful to the original and perhaps I'll do a feature as I have some cool photos of the new look.

[JayH]

The world is full of all kinds of people and every style and type exists in every corner of the globe. What I've observed it that by demonstrating politeness and respect but without being a pushover, I've been treated as an honoured guest by perfect strangers.

Therein is the key-- I can relate to this. 100% agree.

Once again Mende  makes a great post-- and educates  us all( well-most I am sure) on behaviour issues. Respecting the environment  you are in  and people is crucial in any circumstances.
I never cease to be amazed at the gems Mende comes up with in his posts  !! Thankyou!!

[TomT]

JH,


If anything is more miserable than trying to communicate with a shared vocabulary of ten words, it's having a terp in tow. If you are determined to go through with this, the two of you will have to hammer out a basic spoken vocabulary. One way to expedite the process would be to buy two copies of the Lonely Planet Russian/English phrase book, send her one of them by mail and read it aloud together by telephone/Skype. The process will be excruciatingly slow at first but it will pick up speed as you go.

[Chicagoguy]

ML - I have been to Russia 16 times and I have never found people such as you describe. Never.

[Boethius]

I wrote:  I have met hundreds of FSU men and women.

It still depends on who you are meeting.  Is it mostly businessmen/women?  People who work with foreigners? 


My inlaws never ask for anything, and SIL is so grateful any time the better half sends money or goods, she is almost tongue tied.  He always cuts conversations short when that occurs.

[Ooooops]

Nothing exceptional about FSU ppl who thrive on tourists, you can meet those toots anywhere in the world.   But if you go off the beaten path and communicate with "normal" folks then your golden fleece is in no danger.   

[JayH]

Nothing exceptional about FSU ppl who thrive on tourists, you can meet those toots anywhere in the world.   But if you go off the beaten path and communicate with "normal" folks then your golden fleece is in no danger.   

That is a point I have tried to advise newbies about a few times. If you are going to meet a girl (s?) plan on seeing more of the country and learning about it. That may be in one city-- looking and learning can only help the primary intention. I have seen more of Ukraine than most people that live there and meeting a cross section of people has been a great pleasure to me and helped me learn about the people and Ukrainian culture and history.

[LAman]

Nota bene : for the moment you have no relationship.

Don't forget that.

So this is a bad investment.

And now if she ditches you soon, you would for ever have the doubt if she was a prodater/scammer or not.

Isn't the friendship..........part of a relationship ( the beginning part?)

[Ooooops]

I have seen more of Ukraine than most people that live there..

As ironic that sounds but it is true most of the times that interested visitors see more than bored locals.   

[Anotherkiwi]

As ironic that sounds but it is true most of the times that interested visitors see more than bored locals.   

And this applies to any country around the world.  I live in a beautiful city, but it generally takes showing visitors around to remind me, yet again, that I really don't want to live anywhere else.

[Ooooops]

And this applies to any country around the world.  I live in a beautiful city, but it generally takes showing visitors around to remind me, yet again, that I really don't want to live anywhere else.

Would it shock you if I tell you that I've never been to Mausoleum?