Air quality in Ukraine?

[Boethius]

I know a senior citizen with allergies and sinus problems who spent time in Zaphorizhia this summer.    The senior had no issues there, so I would not assume pre existing conditions spell trouble.  It all depends on your own health.  If you are concerned, take antihistamines and Sudafed.

[Anotherkiwi]

I know a senior citizen with allergies and sinus problems who spent time in Zaphorizhia this summer.    The senior had no issues there, so I would not assume pre existing conditions spell trouble.  It all depends on your own health.  If you are concerned, take antihistamines and Sudafed.

Finally!  One of our resident voices of reason has had enough of this sniping.  I haven't been to Zapxxx, so I can't comment.  The woman I met on my second trip lives in Mariupol, and she is quite certain that the air is too polluted for anyone to want to live there if they have the financial means to get out.  If Zap is worse, it must be pretty bad.
 
From my own point of view, which of course is  , I've been to Asian cities with bad air pollution, the worst (by far) being Bangkok.  I didn't actually notice anything in Shanghai to worry me, but then I don't have hay fever or problems with my sinuses.  Funnily enough, the worst air pollution I've ever experienced was in Los Angeles - luckily it only lasted for the first evening that I was there.
 
In my own long-winded way, what I'm trying to say is that different people will have different experiences, regardless of what overall statistics might say.  JayH may have been in Zap just after a storm cleared the air for a day or three, so he didn't see visible signs of air pollution - I don't know.  Had he been there a week later, or a month later, his experience may have been totally different.  The same would almost certainly apply if I returned to Los Angeles - it's highly unlikely that I would experience the same symptoms that I did on my earlier visit.
 
You're both right, but from different perspectives.  Now stop wasting forum space with this ridiculous argument.  And GQBlues - next time, please just answer his damned question in your first reply, rather than spinning it out for a page!   You made your point - why belabour it? 

[GQBlues]

One last try-read what I said-how much clearer could it have been that I was  quoting what I have "seen" with no pretence at quoting data( which btw I indicated it would contrast with my comments) .It was a simple enough proposition that you and your idiotic sidekick  have attempted to make a fedreral case out of.
As for clueless-- that title surely goes to you two pair of clowns who have dug a ridiculous hole for yourselves.

So now--please simply shut up and allow others to post impressions--of the time they were actually there!!  

 
::::::::thinking:::::::::   
 

......  And GQBlues - next time, please just answer his damned question in your first reply, rather than spinning it out for a page!   You made your point - why belabour it?

BS! The village idiot made a post I, and others, challenged it. Instead of supporting what he said, or admitted to being clueless, he instead tried to save face. *I* was the one asking *him* to provide sufficient data to support his idiotic post. He couldn't, and never did, like a typical 'done-under'.

[GQBlues]

....In my own long-winded way, what I'm trying to say is that different people will have different experiences, regardless of what overall statistics might say.  JayH may have been in Zap just after a storm cleared the air for a day or three, so he didn't see visible signs of air pollution - I don't know.  Had he been there a week later, or a month later, his experience may have been totally different.  The same would almost certainly apply if I returned to Los Angeles - it's highly unlikely that I would experience the same symptoms that I did on my earlier visit....

Then qualify it.
 
"40 fcoking years ago when I was in this place, it was bad. So likely my information/experience wouldn't serve you today." BWALLA!

Or at the least, don't post if you believe your opinion/information is outdated or sketchy at best. You most definitely don't offer reassurance over something *you* have reasons to believe may not be true or accurate - and worst, defend it from other who either had been there or have information to the contrary.

[Turboguy]

I was there.  The impression I had was that it was one of the most polluted cities that I had been to.  I could look out the window of my hotel room at stack after stack from the steel mills pouring out billows of smoke.  The whole sky off in the distance seemed filled with smoke and pollution. 


However walking around the city I can't say I noticed that much pollution in the air but I am not very sensitive to it.  I grew up in the Pittsburgh area where our skies looked much the same.  I can recall being at a friends house on top of a hill in the town of Ambridge and looking across the river at the J & L plant which stretched for 11 miles and employed 15,000 people and watching the same thing I saw in Zap.  The steel mills around here are nearly all gone now but I still get to breath a lot of polluted air in my business so I would probably not notice the pollution in Zaporozhye the way someone with sinus problems or other respiratory problems might.

[Daveman]

I was there.  The impression I had was that it was one of the most polluted cities that I had been to. 
...

I was there as well, but only for a few hours as we were passing through, dropping off my wife's friend and visiting with her family on our trek across country to Transcarpathia (an area with, by far and away, the cleanest air in Ukraine - though I have no scientific data to back that statement  )

After witnessing Enakievo covered with which, I can only assume, must be black coal dust EVERYwhere.. with rising plumes of more ready to add to the mischief... I can assert with absolute certainty that there are other areas with far worse pollution than Zaporozhye.  Perhaps, as Kiwi alluded, I could have caught Zap on a good day, but it really didn't seem that a prolonged visit would be deadly or even unpleasant. Canadaman believes that the pollution there had an ill effect within a couple of days.




Goes back to this:

I know a senior citizen with allergies and sinus problems who spent time in Zaphorizhia this summer.    The senior had no issues there, so I would not assume pre existing conditions spell trouble.  It all depends on your own health.  If you are concerned, take antihistamines and Sudafed.

[TomT]

As is usual in your dishonesty  you once again seek to  credit me with a proposition that I never made.Are you really that stupid or is it simply a malicious attempt to attack me?
Have you missed your medication today or are you simply a few hours drunker that your west coast bum boy?
LOL But then--of course it is the grog talking!! Good to see you can find a map--pity you cannot tell us if--IF you have ever been there? There are a few way to spell Zaporozhye--but none of them like your attempt!!!
You have once again sort to evade answering my question-- Have you ever been to Zaporozhye?

Why did you edit the emboldened words out of your post?

[Gator]

My experience in Zaporozhye is similar to Turbo's.  I observed plumes from industrial stacks in the distance, yet noticed nothing in the city itself.    There were no malodors nor noticeable aesthetic damage.  Perhaps predominant wind direction is away from the city.  Also the city is not situated in a valley which could cause air inversions. 
 
Zaporozhye  stack plumes were not white.   White plumes would usually indicate harmless water vapor.    The color of the stack plumes suggest particulate emissions with minimal air pollutant treatment.   Fine particulates would also be emitted and such affect people will respiratory ailments and heart conditions.   
 
Does anyone know what is manufactured at the industrial plants in  Zaporozhye?   Dependent upon the industrial  processes, pollutants could vary widely.  A lead smelter or organic chemical manufacturer would be worrisome. 

The last time I made a trip like this it was to Beijing and Tianjin China and the dusty dirty air there gave me really bad problems with my sinuses. I still have the same sinus problems so I am wondering what the air quality is like in Zaporozhye.

When in Vietnam in 2005 I was near the Chinese border.  China and the border could be seen from many miles due to the heavy level of air contamination, mainly particulates from the common Chinese practice of burning coal.  Ukraine is not the same so relax. 
 
 

Thanks for the advice everyone. It is very helpful. I will be taking some of the paper disposable face masks along.

I suggest you not wear a face mask in public unless you want to come across as weird or sickly.

[ML]

Was talking at dinner tonight with Ochka about this.

She stated that it was well known in Ukraine that Zap had the worst air pollution of any city in Ukraine.

[Boethius]

It's not even in the top ten, according to a Ukrainian government study done in 2010.  Kryvyi Rih topped that list, followed by Mariuopol.   But, there is no doubt Zaporizhia is polluted.

[Anotherkiwi]

 
::::::::thinking:::::::::     

No, you're not.  Or, if you are, it has nothing to do with what JayH posted.
 

BS! The village idiot made a post I, and others, challenged it. Instead of supporting what he said, or admitted to being clueless, he instead tried to save face. *I* was the one asking *him* to provide sufficient data to support his idiotic post. He couldn't, and never did, like a typical 'done-under'.

For crying out loud!  He said it was HIS impression - he said it was what HE saw!  How much clearer could he possibly be?  You don't need "data" to support a one-time observation. 

[Anotherkiwi]

Then qualify it.
 
"40 fcoking years ago when I was in this place, it was bad. So likely my information/experience wouldn't serve you today." BWALLA!

Or at the least, don't post if you believe your opinion/information is outdated or sketchy at best. You most definitely don't offer reassurance over something *you* have reasons to believe may not be true or accurate - and worst, defend it from other who either had been there or have information to the contrary.

At least this is being reasonable - so why couldn't you elaborate on this in your first post, instead of getting your knickers in a twist because you consider JayH to be the "village idiot?"  Not everybody shares your amazing intellect, nor can we read your mind as to how you want posts presented.
 
Just to make you happy, I'll qualify my comment about Los Angeles - when I was there, 26 years ago (which of course is only a nano-second in the great life cycle of our planet), the air was crap.  OK? 
 
Look at the posts from Turboguy, Daveman and Gator - they have all been to Zaporozhye, which you have not, and they all echo JayH's comments to some degree in that they didn't find the air pollution in the city itself to be particularly bad, even though they could see smoke being belched into the air from factory chimneys.  Nobody is disagreeing with the data which you found -  it just shows that what you read doesn't always translate directly into visible observations.
 

It's not even in the top ten, according to a Ukrainian government study done in 2010.  Kryvyi Rih topped that list, followed by Mariuopol.   But, there is no doubt Zaporizhia is polluted.

I've already written about Mariupol in this thread, but I'm really surprised to read about Kryvyi Rih.  I have a friend there who has always boasted how clean and pleasant the air is!  The photos and videos I've seen certainly don't show the obvious pollution that I've seen from Mariupol.  However, that may be because it's the longest city in Ukraine, and thus the polluting factories may be grouped together.  That's just a guess, though - can anyone who has been there elaborate?
 

[GQBlues]

No, you're not.  Or, if you are, it has nothing to do with what JayH posted....

Wrong. It has everything to do with him and his posts! Try again...

... For crying out loud!  He said it was HIS impression - he said it was what HE saw!  How much clearer could he possibly be?  You don't need "data" to support a one-time observation. 

....and for crying out loud, not only is HE WRONG, he also proved *being anywhere* doesn't AUTOMATICALLY denote awareness and/or accurate knowledge of any given subject. Thus the dude lack any credibility in his silly posts in this thread. Whether he admits to this or not doesn't change that 'scientific' fact.

 

...and yes, whenever you submit something as fact in a form of a RESPONSE to a query, then you better have ample and/or substantiated supporting information...otherwise a bad and erroneous opinion is simply that - bad and erroneous, nothing more. He dug himself that silly hole much deeper by insisting he was somehow right for a silly reason of *being there* despite obvious readily available information, statements from other folks who have also been to the place, and written reports from people actually living there, all to the contrary; won't negate the *scientific fact* he started looking like the village idiot that he is.


***Yeah, well, I could very well be wrong but I know better than you because I've been there, although any viable information regarding the subject could easily prove me wrong, but nonetheless the answer is, the OP have nothing to worry about, blah, blah, blah....because again, I've been there and you haven't*****

Makes a whole lot of sense, doesn't it?

At least this is being reasonable - so why couldn't you elaborate on this in your first post, instead of getting your knickers in a twist because you consider JayH to be the "village idiot?"  Not everybody shares your amazing intellect, nor can we read your mind as to how you want posts presented....

Because the stooge was challenged with his assertion and instead of admittance to the counter, he instead took the position of defending it and dispenses with the notion everyone who haven't to a place can't possibly be more right than he.
 
 

...Just to make you happy, I'll qualify my comment about Los Angeles - when I was there, 26 years ago (which of course is only a nano-second in the great life cycle of our planet), the air was crap.  OK? 

 
Look at the posts from Turboguy, Daveman and Gator - they have all been to Zaporozhye, which you have not, and they all echo JayH's comments to some degree in that they didn't find the air pollution in the city itself to be particularly bad, even though they could see smoke being belched into the air from factory chimneys.  Nobody is disagreeing with the data which you found -  it just shows that what you read doesn't always translate directly into visible observations....

To some degree? What the heck does that mean? They couldn't see the metallurgy particles in the air so maybe to *some degree* it isn't as polluted despite knowing the city is a heavy industrial area with little to no environmental regulatory control in place? Heck, anyone *who's been there can at least see these facts if they can't see the floating particulates in the air they breathe.

Define *degree* on this subject. The OP didn't ask for a *degree*, he flat out asked whether or not the air is polluted.
 

....I've already written about Mariupol in this thread, but I'm really surprised to read about Kryvyi Rih.  I have a friend there who has always boasted how clean and pleasant the air is!  The photos and videos I've seen certainly don't show the obvious pollution that I've seen from Mariupol.  However, that may be because it's the longest city in Ukraine, and thus the polluting factories may be grouped together.  That's just a guess, though - can anyone who has been there elaborate?...

Carbon Monoxide is both odorless and invisible but it doesn't mean it can't be present at a given time, nor does it lose its deadly presence.


Bottom line is, all he had to do is admit he's fcoking wrong. The sooner he does, the sooner I can stop being anal with him. 

[Ooooops]

What are the PSI in those cities in Ukraine?  I remember how Singapore got into panic mode when they had 400 PSI thanks to forest fires in Indonesia and almost declare a war on their neighbor.     400 PSI was a pretty common number in Beijing when we lived there.   And no, no locals wears masks on the street because of that. 

[southernX]

I found the following quote in an article about air pollution in Ukraine.

Air pollution is especially severe in many of the heavily industrialized cities and towns of southeastern Ukraine, notably in Kharkiv, Luhansk, Donetsk, Dnipropetrovsk and Zaporizhia. Coal-using industries, such as metallurgical coke-chemical plants, steel mills, and thermal power plants are major sources of high levels of uncontrolled emissions of sulphur dioxide, dust, unburned hydrocarbons, and other harmful substances.

Maybe if I am going there at the end of November it will be better than summer but it really doesn't sound good.

jenson h 907

every year for  the last several years we have had a vacation in kharkiv for a month at a time in summer  and a % of time in Dnipropetrovsk, yalta and places inbetween

i suffer with moderate asthma , imho the air pollution is not at all visible to the naked eye as it may be in other citys , as jay has stated it is not apparent to the naked eye ,even though it exists
 the measured amount of pollution in the air in these citys that exists has never affected my asthma or sinuses, even in high summer , when at home in australia hay fever would be an issue [go figure ]

my advice  is .. be aware of it , but not alarmed by it ,
i can say i actually enjoyed being outside in the citys with a good breeze blowing , air looked and smelt quite clean as you walk about , with mainly blue skies &  clear visibility

id certainly  not be paranoid about it , do some reading and make your own decision to go or not like i did

SX

[Anotherkiwi]

Carbon Monoxide is both odorless and invisible but it doesn't mean it can't be present at a given time, nor does it lose its deadly presence.

So?  I totally agree, but what has that got to do with what I wrote about Kryvyi Rih?

Bottom line is, all he had to do is admit he's fcoking wrong. The sooner he does, the sooner I can stop being anal with him. 

Well, he's not likely to after all of this, is he?    Also, note southernX's reply.  Of course, that's not scientific either, or backed up by reams of data (and he doesn't mention Zaporozhye specifically).  It's just one guy's opinion, based on his own medical history.
 
And what's this about being "anal with him?"  I'm anal at work, because my job demands the utmost precision in what I produce and I can't afford to get it wrong.  However, I try really hard to leave that attitude at work.  These days, you're anal with pretty well everyone, instead of the generally cheerful guy who used your handle when I first starting lurking here.  You've got a lovely wife and a (presumably) happy life, so why dump loads of crap on people just because they dare to disagree with you, or aren't as well-informed?  What is blindingly obvious to you is not always so to someone else.  When you take the time to explain things without rancour (such as the French v British naval operations in North-West Africa during World War II), you show yourself as a really interesting guy.
 
Sure, I can see that there are some posters who really get your goat, but sometimes you seem to go on and on just for the sake of it.  You can, of course, ignore this totally - it doesn't worry me.  I just think that you used to be better than that.

[TomT]

He said it was HIS impression - he said it was what HE saw!

I don't believe that Jay was ever in Zap because he was unaware of the Ukrainian spelling and he took me to task for using it.


"There are a few way to spell Zaporozhye-- but none of them like your attempt!!!"




Someone would have to be a complete retardate (a possibility that I would not rule out) not to notice the double
Ж that is plastered all over the city.

[JayH]

I don't believe that Jay was ever in Zap because he was unaware of the Ukrainian spelling .

Here you trot out your old furphy to call me a liar--- again.
I have never seen  the spelling you used anywhere--but I note it is used on Wiki.
 Let us get to the crux of TT's paranoia--- put your money where your mouth is and bet me real dollars---- You assert I have never been to Zaporozhye-- I say I have. In the past you have persisted is stating I had never even been in Ukraine- now you are narrowing it down a little LOL/!!  Which is it?
So come on -put your money where your mouth is you boring blow hard--bet me real dollars ??????????????????????????

[TomT]

I circled the city name in yellow so that it would be obvious, even to you. Any fool who has been there would recognize train station #1. Save your real dollars for your first trip to the FSU.

[JayH]

Apologies to the OP for the diversions in his thread.

BTW  Tom-- you  seem to have missed  the part about when you were in Zaporozhye yourself-- we all know you have never been there-- so why not say that.  perhaps you have a photo of yourself with a road or city sign? Something real that was not dug up on the internet!!
The bottom line is you have no first hand observations  but persist in making ridiculous attempts to tell me what  I saw!!( Or more accurately-- what I said I did not see!!) Laughable.

[JayH]

Oh-- so when were you at the station?  I have never been to the train station --but have seen plenty of other city signs-- and have no recall of that spelling-- but it is not the point at issue here-- WHEN WERE YOU THERE?

Put your money where your mouth is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




One more tip for free--  put up or shut up !! You have already made yourself look ridiculous .
Keep going-- and  we will be getting into  why you will not admit to your history .  So why not quit while you are behind.

[southernX]

I circled the city name in yellow so that it would be obvious, even to you. Any fool who has been there would recognize train station #1. Save your real dollars for your first trip to the FSU.

 thing is i usually remember the layout of a building or how it looks ,colour or whats next to  it etc  with train & bus stations in FSU its even less so as im usually dropped by taxi  at the entrance it ,walking my way around its abit different of course , as i use landmarks all the time , not so much names on top of buildings

 i think id probably only get a few correct if i had to spell them too , probably because im usually looking ahead , not so much up ,

i suppose it depends how anal or pedantic you want to  be & how you live your life ,

SX 

[TomT]

 thing is i usually remember the layout of a building or how it looks ,colour or whats next to  it etc  with train & bus stations in FSU its even less so as im usually dropped by taxi  at the entrance it ,walking my way around its abit different of course , as i use landmarks all the time , not so much names on top of buildings

 i think id probably only get a few correct if i had to spell them too , probably because im usually looking ahead , not so much up ,

i suppose it depends how anal or pedantic you want to  be & how you live your life ,

SX

Don't blame me; he fancies himself to be an expert but denies the Romanized Ukrainian spelling (Zaporizhzhia) and, even after showing him evidence of his ignorance, continues to rave like a lunatic. This is not about anality and pedanticism; normal people who don't have a clue about the subject material typically STFU, read or research. The boy simply ain't right.

[Konfushus]

Lame argument - but did anyone finally look up the PM levels of Zapo, LA and China?

[Muzh]

What are the PSI in those cities in Ukraine?  I remember how Singapore got into panic mode when they had 400 PSI thanks to forest fires in Indonesia and almost declare a war on their neighbor.     400 PSI was a pretty common number in Beijing when we lived there.   And no, no locals wears masks on the street because of that.

 
I don't know what the PSI is for any of those cities but I checked here and the last numbers for PM10 I got for Ukraine indicated that it was receding, 17ug/m3 in 2009 to 15ug/m3 in 2010.
 
What is surprising is that there are parts of LA where they have reported PM10 ranging from 31 um/m3 to almost 41 ug/m3. http://www.aqmd.gov/tao/AQ-Reports/Resurrection_Catholic_School_Study.pdf
 
A few factors to be considered. The numbers for Ukraine are reported for the country, not a specific location. It could be a monitoring station located in a defunct industrilized city or in the middle of Podunk which, in that case, I could easily believe. Also, it has been my experience that countries from the former Soyuz still suffer from reporting requirements as it did with the old USSR. I have read scientific papers fro the USSR that reported human exposure to certain chemicals that could have easily sustained the notion of superhumans (yeah, right) since at these same levels the rest of the population of the planet would have been exhibiting serious adverse health effects.
 
Something also to consider. Ukraine will sell their clean fuel to Europe and sell their dirty fuel to their residents making the ambient air very dirty. I remember my first visit to Ukraine and my eyes were constantly teary and red, not to mention the excess mucus as a result from the air contaminants. And I was a smoker!!! My wife on the other hand was impervious to this. It took a while for me to adjust. On my last trip it was not as bad.
 
Things have improved considerably, but not as a result of environmental controls.
 
Ha! That was a joke.
 
Actually, the improvement to the air quality is the reult of the heavy industry dying little by little.
 
I would bet that all ground water is contaminated. Actually, that was a bet from one of Ukraine's Cabinet of Ministers who was in NYS years ago asking for assistance.
 
However, as some have mentioned earlier, the OP will easily survive. Just don't drink the water nor breath the air.