First trip

[Mtnmansummit]

Just curiouse, because in Russia (in Moscow at least) the first police patrol may stop you and ask your registration.


Hello Ellen; I do not understand, can I expect to be stopped, in Ukraine and Russia? Is this because I stand out as a tourist? I have read that American men stand out because we do not have a good sence for fasion.

Last edited on Wed Feb 23rd, 2005 10:41 am by Mtnmansummit

[Mtnmansummit]

Just curiouse, because in Russia (in Moscow at least) the first police patrol may stop you and ask your registration.


Hello Ellen; I do not understand, can I expect to be stopped, in Ukraine and Russia? Is this because I stand out as a tourist? I have read that American men stand out because we do not have a good sence for fasion.

Last edited on Wed Feb 23rd, 2005 10:41 am by Mtnmansummit

[Elen]

Hello Ellen; I do not understand, can I expect to be stopped, in Ukraine and Russia? Is this because I stand out as a tourist? I have read that American men stand out because we do not have a good sence for fasion.

dejavu:? It seems I answered already. Ok once more

1. You may be stopped in Russia (I know nothing how things are in Ukraine, ask somebody else)

2. Everybody (not only tourists, but I as well) "has a right to be stopped":D and asked to show documents where a mark with registration exactly in that local city is supposed to be. (I meself do have such mark in my local pasport. This mark proves I have a permanent residence exactly in Moscow)

3. Of course police patrols have another businesses exept stopping out everybody at street and asking riegistration. Mostly they direct their attention at such thing as

- nationality (no "racists" covert meanings , Dan;) but Moskovites who have all needed mark in their pasports for certain mostly do have Slavic faces but not Caucasian or Black ones:D)

- a style of clothing (sometimes it's obviously from one look at clothing - this man is not from Moscow for sure. Mostly it works for those who were just released from prisons and "just need" in check their documents

- non-normal behaviour (from shouting songs with drunk voices to dashing aside eyes)

You may think how it's all silly. But during one of the last ter-acts in Moscow (next to Rigskays metro station) one stare of milician at woman with "Chechens face" saved many ( but unfortunately not all :?) lifes. She was frightened and rushed back at open area from undergound. If that explotion happened in closed area the amount of victims was much more bigger.

As for "American men's sence for fasion" then I have not idea what it is:shock: (hope you don't look like you just arrived from some Siberian GULAG:D)

[Elen]

Off topic but I just recalled one story I read at russian board.

A woman guided her foriegn friend in St. Petersburg and was surprised with the abbilities of old women at the musiums' entrances to detect "foriegners" from one glance:D.

If you don't know but the cost of tickets to museums for non-CIS citizens may be 3 times higher. But no one time that women were fooled with "nationality" of that woman's friend:D. He always paid the highest price for tickets. Girls wondered and asked one of those old women how did they know?? (Because there was nothing "special" and "non-russian" in the fasion of that man. And he keeped his mouth closed.)  The answer was simple "We just know and would recognise "foriegn" even in "naked" condition":D

So that, boys. You may fool our milicia but you have no one chance with our old women:D. They always do know where are you from.

[Photo Guy]

How? What didn't you never see how people lost conscience and went at dead bodies  trying to gain as much money as possibble? You are lucky to live in Wonder land:D Welcome to the post-communist Russia to see how it coud be!:D

In that case, it is not the money that goes against conscience,
instead it is 'greed' that goes against conscience. Money is a 'tool'
that can be used for good or evil. Some people choose to be
greedy and unethical. To guard against that happening, societies
create laws and law enforcement and systems of justice.  -doug L.

[Elen]

To guard against that happening, societies
create laws and law enforcement and systems of justice. -doug L.

 My-my-my, Photo Guy:D Now you are telling me that "laws" and "justice" are protected from corruption with money. Certainly you are incorrigible optimist.

Good for you:D

[Photo Guy]

Hello Ellen; I do not understand, can I expect to be stopped, in Ukraine and Russia? Is this because I stand out as a tourist? I have read that American men stand out because we do not have a good sence for fasion.

[/quote]
This good guy/child would just like to make a comment about
being stopped, as a result of looking like a tourist.
Russian police should notice that a person is a tourist and
then decide NOT stop them for registration papers. This will encourage tourism rather than make tourists feel uncomfortable.
That would be good for tourists and for the Russian economy.
I guess I'm espousing a 'customer service' mentality.  -doug L.

[Photo Guy]

To guard against that happening, societies
create laws and law enforcement and systems of justice. -doug L.

 My-my-my, Photo Guy:D Now you are telling me that "laws" and "justice" are protected from corruption with money. Certainly you are incorrigible optimist.
Good for you:D
[/quote]
Yes. I've seen it happen many times. If a law is broken you
can create a lawsuit and there can be justice. It is not
100% effective, but the system does help society keep corruption
at bay, at a minimum here. If a policeman wants you to pay
him off, so that he will let you go, you can take action to
have that policeman reprimanded, maybe even fired. I do not know of ANYONE here who ever had to give a policeman money from his pocket. Police would not get away with that here, because of the laws and the justice system, however imperfect. I have seen the
law work properly many times here. Society here expects the
justice system to work. Judges are scrutinized. The people in
power are scrutinized.   -doug L.

[Elen]

Photo Guy we live in parallel universities. You are in democratic USA and I'm from post-communist deRmocratic  Russia. And parallels cross only in infinity where space and time twist:D

[Bruce]

Ellen, getting back on subject - What do you and the majority of your friends think of the large organized "tour" groups like AFA, Anastasia and European Connections???

[Photo Guy]

Photo Guy we live in parallel universities. You are in democratic USA and I'm from post-communist deRmocratic  Russia. And parallels cross only in infinity where space and time twist:D

Okay, I will meet you there!  

[Elen]

What does "the maiority of my friends" think about such kind of "tour groups"???:?:?

I think the said "majority" does not even suspect about their existence and therefore think nothing. Nobody who I know personal considers possibility to find somebody in such way:?. Me too. May be it's because I live in Moscow and it's not "favourite" city for "import fiances" . May be because the "majority" of my friends is women about 40s and we are already "out of game" for you:D

So my "dilettante" verdict woud be soomething like this:

if you want to find somebody then lets buy yourself a comp and make your choice among thousands variants. If you can go trough all of that from the first step to the altar on your own's (write letters, book hotels, make agreements and conversations with women on some language) , then let's do it. (but it would cost you a tons of energy and enough money as well) If result does't satisfy you it would be only your own fault.

If you can't do it  then let's go to some agency and be prepared to pay a lot (result is not garantied as well). People from agency want to have their piece of bread too. (And nothing will stop them from spreading that bread with butter and caviar out of your pockets. It's market:D.)

So that. I'm useless persone in "agency issue" for you guys.

[Albert]

It is certainly useful to hear the comments of FSU ladies, if those ladies are representative of the ones that most of the guys who post here are seeking.

Elen is certainly a bright (or clever as they would say) lady and has interesting and controversial things to say.

However, she is certainly not representative of the women being sought, so one can get a very distorted view by taking her comments to heart.

Old hands at this will tell you that Moscow is a great place to bring a woman in to meet with you, but virtually none would want an actual Moscow woman.  If so, just go to New York.

[Elen]

Discrimination against moskovites :X:X  :D

May I ask why don't Moscow women suit you?

[Albert]

Elen, I have nothing against Moskovite women.  I actually like them.  But then I like American women also.  So that makes me different than 'most' of the men here.

So my comments were directed to 'most' of the guys who hang out here.

They are looking for women who are different from American women.  In many ways, women in Moscow are very similar to American women.  So they are not a good match for 'most' of the guys who are looking for a FSU woman.

And to answer your next probable question:  "If you like AW, why are you looking for a bride in FSU?"  Again, I am different than most who post here in that I am not 'looking' for a wife.  I go to FSU for business.  I date women in FSU just like I date AW, Canadian women, Asian women, etc.  If I find one that I want to marry, I will ask her.  I am not opposed to getting married.  I actually think it is sort of strange to 'look for a wife' but that is just me.  Sounds a lot like 'looking for a car.'  I go on dates . . .  if it (getting married) happens; it happens.

[jb]

Wait-a-minute.... time out....

Old hands at this will tell you that Moscow is a great place to bring a woman in to meet with you, but virtually none would want an actual Moscow woman.

I'd be interested to read a thoughtful and well reasoned explaination for making such a wild, and basically wrong statement.

[Elen]

Well where are those "the most men" and "old hands" to explain why do they avoid Moscow and St. Peterburg? (btw Are Kiev and Minsk in the same "black" list)

Don't be shy with your answers  I can "bear" any variant

 

[jb]

Elen,

I think I'd be considered an "Old Hand" by most definitions and I'm married to a Moscovichka.  In fact, I wouldn't dream of marriage to anything but a Moscovite.  Once you've been with the best, why would a man be interested in anything second rate?  

The usual argument is that Moscow women are too "westernized", that normally means the man, being rather simple and stupid himself,  wants a woman he can control and keep her simple and stupid.  He does not want her to be able to become independent and be able function in our world without him, he's insecure.  This attitude usually is manifested in men who have little to offer in maturity, sophistication, and education, thus they seek the lowest, not the highest.

Hang in there, girl, there are many men who prefer women with more than two working brain cells in their heads.

[Elen]

Now:? That's not interesting because that I do know myself:D:D:D

Something else??

[Bruce]

I agree that there is nothing wrong with a good woman, and good women are everywhere including the biggest, "fastest" cities in the FSU (former Soviet Union). 

However, I think the percentage of "good" women is lower in big cities than in smaller cities and in rural areas.  I know this may open up a can of worms - but it is just my opinion.  Where men differ is how you apply the word "good."  As far as I was concerned a "good" woman was not going to use me as if I was a human credit card or money tree.  It was just my bad luck or bad experience but I ran into a much higher percentage of city women who expected me to spend, spend, spend on them - so it was later, later, later to them. 

I also was looking for well cultured, well educated women.  I found a greater percentage of these in the bigger cities than smaller cities / rural areas.  Thats what made my search so hard.  I had the bad luck of generally finding the culturally sophisticated, well educated women in the big cities of the FSU, but the women with what I term the better values ie. not money hungry, traditional values, high character generally in the smaller cities. 

I also think that in general, a woman from the big city is more apt to easily adapt to life in the USA, but again, it is a generalization on my part.

In general I found the women with more traditional values ie. willing and happy to cook, know how to iron clothes and are happy to help with it, wanting children, morally sound etc. in greater propensity in the small cities and rural areas.  I also found from experience a greater percentage of women who had the character traits I was looking for, some of which are, sincere, loyal, honest, loving etc. in the smaller cities and rural areas.  So, once I figured that out for myself I spent more time looking for my wife to be in the smaller cities and rural areas. 

There are great looking women throughout the FSU so that was not a factor at all.

So, there are a ton of excellent women in both the large cities, small cities and rural areas of the FSU.  Think of it like the recent Presidential election in an area like New York City.  Look at the kind of girl you want as those that voted Republican.  In New York City about 1 out of 10 women voted for Bush.  You want to find a woman who voted for Bush.  However, New York City has so many women that you can find easily run into 10 great women in a row or 90 who voted for Kerry.  The odds are against you - but just because of sheer numbers it can still easily happen.  I look at Moscow as I would NYC.  You could easily run into a great girl (voted for Bush), but chances are you'll run into 20 Kerry supporting women in a row, give up and leave the city.

 

 

I eventually found a well educated, culturally sophisticated women with good character and traditional values in a small city.

[Elen]

Don't you think that "well edicated and culturally sophisticated " women" most probably see another perspectives in their lifes than cooking and ironing?

And as for me (arrogant moskovite;)) I always thought it most likely would be women from little town who use you like "human credit card" because we do have our own credit cards and have no such "vital" need in yours ones

 

 

[Elen]

And btw Does "well edicated" mean master degree in the University(Institute) or just russian secondary school (11 classes) ?

[Bruce]

Ah, the good woman will understand the importance of male and female roles in society, will support her husband and will want children.

[Elen]

Aha! I see!  Let's know your place, female:D There are three K for you -"Kuche, Kinder, Kirche"- aren't, boys ?

But there is one problem I see with "good" women you  would prefer to see next to you.

It's easy to "support" a husband, staying in home when it all OK with your finances. (of course we don't take into attention a situation when " a well edicated brains" of your wife become such bored with in that sell you put her in that good home wife desides to take some fun with post man or milk-man :P:P)

But things may change and you may lose your money and then the probability is more higher that it woud be exactly "home wife" who would leave you  (but not support) She just would force to do that because she has not her own job to support you.

(Btw master degree of University and job are not mutually exclusive to kids and support of husbands in Russia (May be that's what we are different to yours american women:P)

 

[Bruno]

[line]
Ah, the good woman will understand the importance of male and female roles in society, will support her husband and will want children.
[line]


Short post but who lead to a long reply.... 

I begin with the end... will want children ... The life of a Russian woman would be considered like being defective to some extent if she did not become a mother. It is very important for Russian women to have one child at least. All Russian women seem to have a strong desire to have children. If your lady is less than forty years old, she will definitely want to have at least one child to feel complete in her family. If she already has a child or children, she would probably kill to protect them. Do yourself a favor; don't get in the middle of this dynamic! Issues of children fall into three basic areas: her children, your children, and future children. The conversations a man has with his Russian lady about children are some of the most important discussions on the way to a relationship. Children and child rearing is an integral part of marriage. Relationships get complicated, and step relationships get more complicated than most. Both parties should spend a significant amount of time understanding their own feelings and learning about they partners attitudes in this area.

About support... It is very strange, but it is a typical picture - even if a woman has a husband, most of the duties and problems about her family are on her. In general, a Russian woman will try to be a good mother and devoted wife. Russian women are very serious in their family duties, and they are usually the ones in charge of the household. Russian men often give very little help to their wives around the home, and the responsibility for raising and feeding the family rests with the women. Russian women are very conservative and family oriented in this matter. They are strong in their character and they differ from the foreign women because they are more patient, caring, and very responsible for their families.

For Russians the family is the support system in times of crisis. Children often live with their parents or grandparents well into adulthood. In this way Russians are less independent than westerners, but their families are often more closely knit. It requires some patience and understanding when even the smallest decisions are discussed, debated, and solved by committee. It's important to keeps this factor in mind if a western man takes a Russian lady away from her family to live in a foreign country. She will feel isolated, lonely, and she will be totally dependent on her man until she adjusts to her new lifestyle. In these case, it is better speak about the support of the western husband to his new russian wife...

At last... role in society ... Without a doubt, women's ideals are somewhat different than men's in regards to finding a compatible mate. In the eyes of most Russian women, financial security and the ability to support a family are highly desirable qualities in a man. Because of the financial hardships in Russia, the women understand that a western man may be her best opportunity to secure stability for herself and build a thriving family.

The doomsayers will tell you, "It's just money, stupid!" They are wrong. Of course it happens in some limited instances, but I know that most Russian women are about more than just money. They may be Russian, but they are still women. And, women will most always be attracted to respect, communication, kindness, and love as much as security. These are the qualities that Russian women are looking for, the same qualities that are prevalent in a significant portion of the western male population.

In other words, as Russian women often state it, they are looking for their other half. It isn't popular in Russia to believe that men and women are opposites, but rather that they are two complimentary halves of a whole. It seems logical enough that just as men and women fit together physically, they also fit together emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually.


Now, i can say that Russian woman can be considered like good woman but i need add a final word about the guys expetcations ...

It becomes easy to understand why problems might arise given the disparity between reality and expectations. This is no more true than the unreasonable expectations held by many western men regarding Russian women. The most common misperception of Russian women is that they are docile wallflowers. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Russian women have assumed the preponderance of responsibility for the family and social order in Russia. On top of this, most are reliable workers, earn degrees from universities, and to a greater or lesser extent, are opinionated.

Don't make the mistake that because Russian women are sophisticated and intelligent, that they a somehow cold and independent. Expect civility, nor servility. Expect feminine, not feminist. With all their strength, they are still women who want a strong man to lead and protect them. But, they want that leadership in the form of compassion and example, not an iron fist.