Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[Gator]

Ade, you quote Rumi.  I quote Jami:


“I will never deny that life isn't fair. It seems as though when a woman leaves a man she is strong and independent, but when a man leaves a woman he is a pig and a jerk.”

Regarding your quote of Rumi, a mirror should not be relevant to knowing oneself.

[GQBlues]

Judging my the results of Daveman's poll, it sure looks like people here don't believe the women are 'exploited' (by the travelers who come to visit)....

I agree! I didn't think this before but I was wrong..this is all about true love and soulmates. I remember someone said before that these ladies sacrifice themselves and give up everything they have ever known just to be with each of us. He was so, so right about that.

How can that ever possibly be mistaken as an exploitation of anyone? I voted #4 myself. I really do wished I had more than just one. I would've voted #4 and #3 because, man, it is so very true.

As Rumi said, “Don't be satisfied with stories, how things have gone with others. Unfold your own myth.”

[Gator]

Judging my the results of Daveman's poll, it sure looks like people here don't believe the women are 'exploited' (by the travelers who come to visit).


Fathertime!

It also shows that only 20 people care. 

[fathertime]

I agree! I didn't think this before but I was wrong..this is all about true love and soulmates. I remember someone said before that these ladies sacrifice themselves and give up everything they have ever known just to be with each of us. He was so, so right about that.

How can that ever possibly be mistaken as an exploitation of anyone? I voted #4 myself. I really do wished I had more than just one. I would've voted #4 and #3 because, man, it is so very true.

As Rumi said, “Don't be satisfied with stories, how things have gone with others. Unfold your own myth.”

These exaggerated false opinions you now spew are stereotypical acting out behaviors borne of an unjustified anger (among other things)…the equivalent to a child throwing a tantrum because he doesn’t get to do exactly what he wants to do. Taken in context, the behavior demonstrates a mentality of extreme self-centeredness and entitlement (you treat the website as if it is your junkyard)… in adults it is considered a mental disorder. 
It would seem to me that you could make efforts to hit your reset switch and state your genuine opinions in a manner that is reasonable (it is not hard to do).  This will only be possible if the false pride you attempt to exude is discarded, like the trash that it actually is.
I’d say that most people are willing to hear well-reasoned opinions, even if those opinions are contrary to their own beliefs. Free choice is yours and of course each choice carries consequences.   


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

It also shows that only 20 people care. 

I think outside of these hallowed halls, the general public would be more likely to say the women are being 'exploited'...but there is also a significant % that think Elvis is alive and well. Fair-minded people closest to the situation seem to have a better grasp..in my opinion. 


Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

These exaggerated false opinions you now spew are stereotypical acting out behaviors borne of an unjustified anger (among other things)…the equivalent to a child throwing a tantrum because he doesn’t get to do exactly what he wants to do. Taken in context, the behavior demonstrates a mentality of extreme self-centeredness and entitlement (you treat the website as if it is your junkyard)… in adults it is considered a mental disorder. 
It would seem to me that you could make efforts to hit your reset switch and state your genuine opinions in a manner that is reasonable (it is not hard to do).  This will only be possible if the false pride you attempt to exude is discarded, like the trash that it actually is.
I’d say that most people are willing to hear well-reasoned opinions, even if those opinions are contrary to their own beliefs. Free choice is yours and of course each choice carries consequences.   


Fathertime!

Please allow me to disagree with you fathertime. Please.

I do see things differently these days. It only makes sense. This is all about 'love' and that's what everyone had been saying all along. I was wrong to be a doubter before.

The sacrifices these women gave for each of us to find our happiness is just beyond comprehension. Can you imagine? Man, I feel like voting for #4 again just typing this post.

It really gives me such a warm and fuzzy feeling inside these days to finally see the light in these relationships/marriages really. So much happiness abound! I'm sure you can concur with your own marriage with that Colombian woman, yes? It is all about love. "el-oh-vee-eee"


I <3 you, man!

[Ade]

Riddle me this; when is a choice not a free choice?

And when it's not a free choice, is it not exploitative to take advantage of that choice?

As defined by the The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language the very definition of a "free choice" is, "The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances". Collins says, "the ability to make a choice without coercion".

Ukraine and other FSU countries have widespread poverty, poor living conditions, high unemployment, corruption, political instability and, for women, rampant sexism and sexual abuse to name but a few motivators to desperation. A desperate woman is hardly in a position to make a free choice. A desperate choice perhaps, one where selecting the best from a bad lot is as much as she can hope for.

You can call it by other names if you wish, but western men do exploit this desperation. Perhaps they see it as "saving" them. Perhaps some of the desperate women see it purely as economic migration, but, the fact of the matter is that few of these young women would trade themselves to much older men or even foreign men if their choice wasn't dictated by external circumstances.

Some of you think that it's an equal and mutually beneficial exploitation in the way that they think that prostitution is, that she exploits his economic position while he exploits her physically. Well, yes, you can call it mutual exploitation if you wish but there's a difference; he has a choice, she usually has little so it's far from equal. And, even if it were, that does not make it any less morally repugnant; two wrongs do not make a right.

And if there was any doubt in a man's mind, they only have to look to countries like Russia that were once powerhouses of the MOB industry are no longer just because the economic situations changed, employment became more available, women got more choices; and what happened? Young women stopped trading themselves in droves to fat or socially inept older men. This fact alone should tell you guys that these women, most of them at least, have absolutely no interest in old foreigners. At best, your "mutual exploitation" is buying you a younger body to grope until a better deal for her comes along which it almost always does sooner or later; it has happened so often here on this very forum that it's a cliché and yet men still, time after time, follow their penis down this exploitative road.

[Daveman]

As defined by the The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language the very definition of a "free choice" is, "The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances". Collins says, "the ability to make a choice without coercion".

Ukraine and other FSU countries have widespread poverty, poor living conditions, high unemployment, corruption, political instability and, for women, rampant sexism and sexual abuse to name but a few motivators to desperation. A desperate woman is hardly in a position to make a free choice. A desperate choice perhaps, one where selecting the best from a bad lot is as much as she can hope for.

You can call it by other names if you wish, but western men do exploit this desperation. Perhaps they see it as "saving" them. Perhaps some of the desperate women see it purely as economic migration, but, the fact of the matter is that few of these young women would trade themselves to much older men or even foreign men if their choice wasn't dictated by external circumstances.

Some of you think that it's an equal and mutually beneficial exploitation in the way that they think that prostitution is, that she exploits his economic position while he exploits her physically. Well, yes, you can call it mutual exploitation if you wish but there's a difference; he has a choice, she usually has little so it's far from equal. And, even if it were, that does not make it any less morally repugnant; two wrongs do not make a right.

And if there was any doubt in a man's mind, they only have to look to countries like Russia that were once powerhouses of the MOB industry are no longer just because the economic situations changed, employment became more available, women got more choices; and what happened? Young women stopped trading themselves in droves to fat or socially inept older men. This fact alone should tell you guys that these women, most of them at least, have absolutely no interest in old foreigners. At best, your "mutual exploitation" is buying you a younger body to grope until a better deal for her comes along which it almost always does sooner or later; it has happened so often here on this very forum that it's a cliché and yet men still, time after time, follow their penis down this exploitative road.

I don't really disagree with most of this - at the moral level.  I do think comparisons with children being sold into slavery are hyperbole.  Other than that it is a matter of semantics and degrees without a clear cut one size fits all formula.  There are advantages.  There is choice.  All are adults.  The nebulous areas would be at what points on the spectrum does the situation change from "I want this", to "this is my best option, so I'll take it", to "I really have no other choice to better my life", to "I can either starve or marry this guy".

[Muzh]

Riddle me this; when is a choice not a free choice?

And when it's not a free choice, is it not exploitative to take advantage of that choice?

Damn you Ade for pointing out the obvious.
 

And, taking a leaf out of GQ's new book, “If you are irritated by every rub, how will your mirror be polished?” ― Rumi

 
 
Probably Mach 2 over some heads.

[Muzh]

Judging my the results of Daveman's poll, it sure looks like people here don't believe the women are 'exploited' (by the travelers who come to visit).


Fathertime!

How many votes?? And WHO voted?
 
I didn't because I didn't find an appropriate choice. Don't like the "Have you stop beating your wife?" type of questions.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Psst, IOW, loaded.

[Daveman]

Damn you Ade for pointing out the obvious.
 
 
 
 
Probably Mach 2 over some heads.

Not really.  I would surmise that most easily understand and follow his posts.  What you have in this is perspective.  The comments concerning free choice may easily be countered with the very simple logic that any choice is influenced by outside factors and if reduced far enough will inevitably become, by his application, exploitation by some entity involved.

All it takes is a modicum of unbiased logic with a dash of open mindedness -- for either side to see the other.

[Muzh]

Interesting, Ade (other than the mirror).  I throw something out for discussion.

1.  Regarding marriage, it is not a free choice for two people compelled by feelings of true love for each other or if the marriage was arranged by parents.       

2.  Regarding FSUW, you can not ignore that many FSUW believe in destiny.   Destiny is  an external constraining force so a FSUW never can have free will.

The answer here is that each woman is a different world.
 
I know, based on same ethnic background, that latinas voluntarily marrying a much older man is a sign of desperation. With gringos even worse.
 
In terms of R/UW, it appears less so, still my wife would argue that when the age discrepancy reaches 15+ years. BUT, that is her NSHO.

 

Anything else is free choice.  That is,   with no feelings of true love and also not believing in destiny,  a decision of whether to marry and to whom is indeed a free choice. 

Let's see another example of free choice. The daughter desperately needs a kidney and the only viable donor is her father. Well, blindingly he offers one of his kidneys. His free choice.
 

Because no option will ever be 100% perfect, a FSUW's decision rests on an evaluation of the many tradeoffs.  She can evaluate the tradeoffs intuitively or analytically.  Either way, it is her thinking that yields a solution to the question of which option is best for her.  For example, an analytical FSUW is free to consider as many decision factors as she wishes, to assign values to each factor based solely on her evaluations, and to assign relative weights to  each, thus yielding a solution of which option is best for her.

One can argue that she does not have complete information about a western man and life with him in a foreign land.  To that I state we never have perfect information.

Now you are justifying the decision. A trade off. Does that stop the exploitation?

[Muzh]

These exaggerated false opinions you now spew are stereotypical acting out behaviors borne of an unjustified anger (among other things)…the equivalent to a child throwing a tantrum because he doesn’t get to do exactly what he wants to do. Taken in context, the behavior demonstrates a mentality of extreme self-centeredness and entitlement (you treat the website as if it is your junkyard)… in adults it is considered a mental disorder. 
It would seem to me that you could make efforts to hit your reset switch and state your genuine opinions in a manner that is reasonable (it is not hard to do).  This will only be possible if the false pride you attempt to exude is discarded, like the trash that it actually is.
I’d say that most people are willing to hear well-reasoned opinions, even if those opinions are contrary to their own beliefs. Free choice is yours and of course each choice carries consequences.   


Fathertime!

This looks like an attack. Is it?

[Daveman]

How many votes?? And WHO voted?
 
I didn't because I didn't find an appropriate choice. Don't like the "Have you stop beating your wife?" type of questions.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Psst, IOW, loaded.

 If you believe it is exploitation, then choose "yes".  Simple enough without the hyperbole criticizing the questions. No? 

[Muzh]

If you believe it is exploitation, then choose "yes".  Simple enough without the hyperbole criticizing the questions. No? 

Dave, I receive lots of surveys and one thing I do, I leave the question blank because it was not properly worded for my personal circumstances.
 
You should also be aware, if you don't already, that sometimes different questions are worded in a way to elicit the same response.

[GQBlues]

I hate it! Really, really hate it!!! I don't believe anything this guy wrote in this article. So many haters in this world!!! Tom Glaister is the world's biggest hater!!!


Disappointment Awaits Men Seeking Foreign Brides Online
Sites promising exotic Asian, Russian women are often scams....or worse


I was in an internet cafe in Thailand last year, trying to work out which continent I should fly to next, when my attention was entirely absorbed by an attractive Thai girl who sat down next to me and logged in. She gave me one of those Thai smiles that could mean anything at all and then concentrated on her correspondence. I was beginning to wonder if Thailand had its merits after all and couldn't help stealing repeated glances at her.

She was totally absorbed in her online conversations with four messenger windows going at once, however, and in each of them I could see the photo of a Western guy. The youngest had to be 45 at least.

"I miss you. When you coming back?
I wait for you but I no have money for my rent."

I looked at her again and realized she was wearing too much makeup and revealing clothes for the average Thai girl. She almost certainly worked in a bar as a hostess for Western guys looking for Eastern romance and now that their holidays were over, her "boyfriends" were back home at work, dreaming of the month or two they'd spent in Thai heaven. They'd be coming back as soon as they could afford it — if their "girlfriend" didn't drain their bank accounts dry in the meantime.

Thailand, like Brazil or the Philippines, is full of Western guys trying their luck with women half their age. With terrible dress sense that betrays the serious lack of a woman's touch, it can be pitiful to watch them trying to mend their hearts under flashing neon signs, sharing a common vocabulary of maybe 500 words with the women they meet.

*Its not easy getting old. Along with worrying about balding, beer guts and prostate cancer, many American men suffer the flip side of the national individualistic character — they end up feeling quite alone.*

As school friends move away and get married, opportunities to make new social contacts tend to diminish with age. And our modern lifestyles often dictate that we work alone in front of a computer, shop alone in a supermarket and go home alone to apartments where neighbors don't talk to one another.

Until the Internet came along, the natural desire to meet the opposite sex did much to boost the attendance at  bars and evening classes in the hope of meeting that special someone. Drinking too much beer and pretending to be interested in learning Italian were the only options left open to the millions of Americans who simply didn't know how else to meet anyone new.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/08/love_abroad.html
 
Tom Glaister obviously haven't read any of Rumi's inspirational pieces. Most especially this one...“Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” Rumi

[Daveman]

Dave, I receive lots of surveys and one thing I do, I leave the question blank because it was not properly worded for my personal circumstances.
 
You should also be aware, if you don't already, that sometimes different questions are worded in a way to elicit the same response.

Okay.  We can add questions worded more appropriately as the poll is open ended and voters may change their votes at any time.  Let's work together to come up with more appropriate questions.  This survey's original purpose was to get a general feel of what posters think.  We can make it more precise and informative.  I debated the issue from the free choice side but in actuality I rarely have a dog in any debate regardless of from which side I am entering the discussion and this is no exception.  If the poll changes and we have a more accurate reflection of member opinions, then the forum benefits. 

[Ade]

The comments concerning free choice may easily be countered with the very simple logic that any choice is influenced by outside factors and if reduced far enough will inevitably become, by his application, exploitation by some entity involved.

All it takes is a modicum of unbiased logic with a dash of open mindedness -- for either side to see the other.

No, that's just you making silly rationalisations.

[fathertime]

As defined by the The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language the very definition of a "free choice" is, "The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances". Collins says, "the ability to make a choice without coercion".

 

Oh, wasn't it you a few days ago talking about UTOPIA?  Now you want to insist that there are NO external circumstances when somebody has to make a choice? 

As defined by the The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language the very definition of a "free choice" is, "The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances". Collins says, "the ability to make a choice without coercion".

Ukraine and other FSU countries have widespread poverty, poor living conditions, high unemployment, corruption, political instability and, for women, rampant sexism and sexual abuse to name but a few motivators to desperation. A desperate woman is hardly in a position to make a free choice. A desperate choice perhaps, one where selecting the best from a bad lot is as much as she can hope for.

You can call it by other names if you wish, but western men do exploit this desperation. Perhaps they see it as "saving" them. Perhaps some of the desperate women see it purely as economic migration, but, the fact of the matter is that few of these young women would trade themselves to much older men or even foreign men if their choice wasn't dictated by external circumstances.

Some of you think that it's an equal and mutually beneficial exploitation in the way that they think that prostitution is, that she exploits his economic position while he exploits her physically. Well, yes, you can call it mutual exploitation if you wish but there's a difference; he has a choice, she usually has little so it's far from equal. And, even if it were, that does not make it any less morally repugnant; two wrongs do not make a right.

And if there was any doubt in a man's mind, they only have to look to countries like Russia that were once powerhouses of the MOB industry are no longer just because the economic situations changed, employment became more available, women got more choices; and what happened? Young women stopped trading themselves in droves to fat or socially inept older men. This fact alone should tell you guys that these women, most of them at least, have absolutely no interest in old foreigners. At best, your "mutual exploitation" is buying you a younger body to grope until a better deal for her comes along which it almost always does sooner or later; it has happened so often here on this very forum that it's a cliché and yet men still, time after time, follow their penis down this exploitative road.

Well Ade, I don't know much about you other than you just became a father for the 1st time at a rather advanced age....good for you on that one.   So presumably you married a younger woman.  It seems to be ok for you, but you seem to have issue with some of the other guys.  Maybe there is a big difference between what you have done, and what you are claiming others are doing.  I'm open to hearing that difference, and then of course breaking down that purported difference and seeing if it is really much of a difference at all...or a form of exploitation.   


Don't get me wrong though, nobody is defending a certain category of traveler that is truly taking advantage of young women and harming them.  There are men that exist that fit this bill, everybody knows that. 


Fathertime! 

[Daveman]

No, that's just you making silly rationalisations.

No, that's just your refusal to admit that there is much more to free will, choice, and circumstance than your post contains.  There is little doubt a dissertation could be written on this topic so I doubt one or two posts would even scratch the surface.

[fathertime]

No, that's just you making silly rationalisations.

Actually Daveman's point is perfectly valid and worthy of a real response...but you really have no response to it, that fits into your theme ...so you hoped your above words would act as a substitute for a substantive response. 


Fathertime! 

[Gator]

Muzh and Ade:

If a woman does not find her dream man and would feel exploited if she married something less, she  always has the choice of not marrying and keep looking.  Marrying is not akin to mandatory conscription.   There is no law requiring women to marry.  No one is holding a gun to the UW's head when she marries a Western man.

Many FSUW upon not finding an ideal man agree with that and have chosen not to marry.  I met a few in their 40s who had never married and several who had married an incompatible FSUM with a quick divorce.  They led an independent life and did okay.  That was their personal choice as would be marrying a Western man.

We don't always get what we want.  For some inexplicable reason, I applied to the CIA my senior university year.   The CIA would not even interview me  because my GPA did not meet their minimum of 3.5.  Instead I interviewed with companies such as du Pont and US Steel.  They wanted to hire me, yet I found the opportunities lacking.  They would have exploited my brilliant young mind.       So I went to graduate school.  That decision made a huge difference in my life. 

[CanadaMan]

This looks like an attack. Is it?

It might look like an attack to you.
It doesn't look like an attack to me.

fathertime has been reading GQ's recent posts and come up with an observation.

His observation is that GQ has been less than genuine in what he's been writing.

His observation is that GQ is now using all kinds of tricks to pretend he's caring/sympathizes with the men who are attempting to find a FSU bride. Sarcasm being his main modus operandi.

fathertime sees it.
Daveman sees it.
Konfushus sees it.
Slumba sees it.
I see it.
You don't see it Muzh?

I will now tear a page from one of GQ's favorite songbooks:
'The Song Remains the Same'.

[Gator]

At best, your "mutual exploitation" is buying you a younger body to grope until a better deal for her comes along which it almost always does sooner or later; it has happened so often here on this very forum that it's a cliché and yet men still, time after time, follow their penis down this exploitative road.

I did not know a penis is a tool of exploitation.   

What you just described is a situation in which the FSUW exploits the man.  The man may be fantasizing yet he enters the marriage in good faith, while the woman simply wants a mule to get out.   One person voted in the survey "yes, women exploit men" and now we know it is you.

I attempted to debate with you but you dismissed my points without explaining why you felt them wrong.  So it seems that you do not want to debate, but rather blow a loud horn.  If you are indeed interested in a discussion of this issue, please tell me what you hope to accomplish by your campaign.   Let us expand;  if you were able to change anything, what would you do within reason?  Examples include: prohibiting western men from dating FSUW, instituting "face control" so only worthy men would be allowed to date FSUW, a PR campaign to educate FSUW and western men, etc.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I did not know a penis is a tool of exploitation.   

Penis' have been exploited by women for decades.