Exploitation: Real, imagined, or deliberately disingenuous?

[Misha]

As is the RW being unlucky in love

I will cite my case. My wife has relatives in Germany, had visited them quite often and one of the young men she met was smitten by her. She thought he was a bit of an idiot and she did not see herself having a future with him. He proposed, said no, as she decided she would be better off working at home. Then she met me. Had she met a decent fellow between him and me, I am certain we would not be married. To reduce complex human relations and hopes to purely pecuniary interests, I agree, is misguided to put it politely.

[Daveman]

Alex, you are doing same thing Dave have been doing previously in this thread.
Taking advantage of economic deprivation is not same as talking advantage of women.

You are correct. Semantically those are not the same but in this scenario to prove "unfairness" you must prove both, i.e., the effect of economic deprivation on the decision making process of women and how men use that to gain an unfair advantage.

Taking advantage of an opportunity which presents itself, by men or women, is still not the equivalent of taking unfair advantage.  I understand that you *feel* what you feel. 

And here's where we are in the discussion...

Since only humans, in this case women, can possibly feel effects of depravity and the emotion of desperation, the subject shifted to "exploiting women" because that is the core of the arguments presented for "exploiting economic depravity" which must be substantiated.  I doubt the concepts are separable within the confines of this discussion because to prove your points you still must prove that "economic deprivation" exists, it drives the women to the point of desperation, and that desperation puts them in a mentally diminished capacity to where they cannot make rational and sound decisions for themselves, thus eliminating free choice aspect.  That would prove the unfairness. 

Once that is established, then it becomes a matter of providing evidence that men take advantage of this diminished mental capacity - that they are going there to take unfair advantage of women who cannot make free and rational choices and decisions for themselves.  Then the case must be made that a high enough percentage of men traveling there have this agenda to give it relevance.  Now you've added the additional burden of proving of the feeling of entitlement.

I see many assumptions that this is unfair. Assertions that it must be unfair.  Assertions that it is obvious that it is unfair, but so far the exploitation side has provided no real supporting evidence, nor has it really attempted to do so, other than stating that usually men have more money, and the women are younger and prettier and if given more options would most likely not choose these men, and that they feel that this give the men an "unfair" advantage. 

[Gylden]

No man in his right mind gets married to have it worse after the marriage, regardless if he is looking for a wife at home or abroad.
The same is true with women.
The situation concerning looking for a SO abroad, in countries with greater economic disparities, opens the opportunity for exploitation but is not exploitive on its own.
Exploitation is dependent on the individual behavior of the parties involved.

[Konfushus]

As you genuinely seem to be having a hard time understanding I'll try to help you out as concisely as I can; not all FSUW are desperate and without options, and Russia's economy is so much better than Ukraine's, in fact, lifestyle in the major cities for many is on a par with Western Europe. There, is that easier for you?

To Ade - I understand just fine. I am furthering the discussion by asking you questions that sadly seem to make you uncomfortable and confused. I would appreciate answers.

I honestly hope that you don't engage people in real life the way you do on this forum.

Back to my questions - they aren't so difficult.

The percent of women that actually want to meet and marry a man through a MOB agency is not what drives the industry. Is that what you think drove the shift to Ukraine? If not, what do you think drove the shift in the industry?

Many MOB sites are still concentrated in Russia, which contradicts what you seem to believe. Are you aware of this?

What is your experience in Ukraine? Have you lived there? What are your observations of the differences between life in Russia and Ukraine based on?

What is your knowledge of how MOB agencies / sites operate based on? What is your knowledge of what motivates women to join a MOB site / agency based on? You listed factors, but are they based on your observation, what women have told you, or speculation?

My observations are based on knowing agency owners, workers and customers. I have no skin in this, I've never used MOB sites as a client, but I have seen the reality and not from afar.

Your wife was deliberately seeking a foreign husband correct? This shows more effort in wanting to leave her country than shown by the vast majority of women that end up on MOB sites. What motivated her (if not the social / economic factors you listed above)?

If I am using a US dating site, and a women from Russia approaches me - it's clear that she has a motivation to leave her own country. By accepting her interest, am I not exploiting her desire to leave her country?

Again, let's say a guy is searching for a wife in Russia, not Ukraine. Is he an exploiter? Does it depend on his methods? (What sites he uses?)

This is all to further a discussion - if it befuddles you just say so and we can drop it.

[Konfushus]

Didn't this thread start because a poster was drawing comparisons between the choices faced by a Russian / Ukrainian woman and children forced into prostitution in Thailand?

The term 'exploitation' has taken on a much milder meaning, no?

[BillyB]

I haven't read the thread and I doubt anybody would be able to change my mind but I don't buy into the exploitation thing. Even if a guy goes to the FSU for "adult" prostitutes who sell their bodies on their own free will, it's not exploitation.


Most people at this forum are looking for love within a marriage. If a guy is good looking, charming, intelligent, and successful, he can use those things to attract the best possible woman at home or abroad. I'd question the man's sanity if he only considered women in his own neighborhood if he has the time and means to travel to find a much better woman. I've been turned down by women on the internet simply because I live more than a 45 minute drive from them. They could've dated me once to see if I was the best man but they could not handle the long distance driving in a relationship so distance became a high priority in a relationship.


FSU women use their beauty and finances to their advantage too. If a girl owns a computer and access to internet, she can increase her potential pool of men to choose from compared the poor girl next door who couldn't afford a computer. If an FSU woman can't find a local man with the quality and finances to take care of her and a family, it's to her advantage to look elsewhere for a man that can provide her stability and security in a country for her future family and generations to come. I find strength in women like that over women that's satisfied living in poor conditions. In nature, the strong survive. Some humans have lost the drive to improve.


Is money evil? A person's finances can be related to their intelligence and abilities to succeed in the workplace. Both men and women with lots of qualities deserve a partner with lots of qualities even if that person is in another country. We're talking about obtaining one of the most important things in life, a life partner. Finding a better deal with the finances and qualities one possesses is not exploitation. Don't buy into the media hype.


My decision to get involved with FSU women abroad and at home is simple. I think Slavic women are the most beautiful women in the world so I want them one.

[Daveman]

Didn't this thread start because a poster was drawing comparisons between the choices faced by a Russian / Ukrainian woman and children forced into prostitution in Thailand?

The term 'exploitation' has taken on a much milder meaning, no?

Prior to that point I think there were just a few of us goofing around with the topic.  Just after that comparison was, iirc, when I split the topic off as it was clearly becoming a more serious discussion worthy of its own space.

It does appear that the connotation has drifted. 

[Ade]

I read your posts and I perceived your primary debating point  as follows:   If a man dates a woman whose income is much lower than his, he is exploiting the economic situation to his benefit (and thereby to her detriment). 

Whoa. Major comprehension fail there Gator. Go back through the thread and show me anywhere where I've said this.

There is also the art of communicating.  I assert that if  the majority of readers can not comprehend your debating points, you are not communicating.

I'll give you a clue - I communicated a list, not all inclusive by any stretch of the imagination, early on in this thread that stated some of the factors that could drive a woman to desperation, enough to, for instance, sell herself to a [possibly fat] man older than her father.

The fact that, for instance, [possibly fat] old men take advantage of that desperation is exploitative.

Got it yet?

[fathertime]

Didn't this thread start because a poster was drawing comparisons between the choices faced by a Russian / Ukrainian woman and children forced into prostitution in Thailand?

The term 'exploitation' has taken on a much milder meaning, no?

Boethius embarrassed (and discredited) herself right out of the discussion when she started talking about forced child prostitution...and equating it to men seeking wives from abroad....


Several people hysterically threw around a lot of derogatory words, but the only one willing to make her case is MissAmeno...the rest are behaving like they are less than courageous...hiding behind "You can't comprehend" in lieu of actually making sense.  Laughable.   


 


Fathertime! 

[Ade]

Ah, I see.  Very astute observation there, Ade.  You leave me with quite the dilemma. I hate to further traumatize an already shocked individual...

Ah, missed your little Websters attachment first time around.

Well, that concise definition still has nothing to do with what I've posted. I'll also raise you with some more extensive links on the subject of ad hominems for you edification. Perhaps Websters online researchers should be a little less concise next time around...

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

[Ade]

You have become fearful and run away from your use of 'punter' earlier in the thread...I think it is funny that you have shown zero courage...I don't agree entirely with certain other posters, but they have presented their case...you have proven to be too cowardly to even do that...probably because you actually just thought you were going to insult with impunity...now that the tables are turned all your 'strength' is drained.   


Go ahead and let the forum know what you meant when you called the forum poll members 'punters'..why so afraid?


Fathertime!

Actually, I think you are just clueless on how people use the term "punter" and won't admit it. Even when I pointed it out you, you are so caught up in that anger and angst that you still preferred to think it was used in the most derogatory fashion possible. lol

Let me give you another example even you cannot ignore and I'll wait for your apology with bated breath;

Yeah  CB--I was shocked to read that she was writing to and dating others!!!Following his blog is quite interesting---many familiar faces amongst the cast.
We see so many newbie posters come to the forum and ask--"what about this site/agency"etc------- as I keep saying--basically the intent of ALL the sites/agencies  is much the same -- problem is we have people on forums who seek to rationalise and blame the punters.
In the blog he seems to get it at times -but has succeeded in meeting many .I can cross-confirm some of the details and girls he writes about-- so quite interesting !!!
He has used some of the notorious sites to make his contacts.

[Daveman]

Ah, missed your little Websters attachment first time around.

Well, that concise definition still has nothing to do with what I've posted. I'll also raise you with some more extensive links on the subject of ad hominems for you edification. Perhaps Websters online researchers should be a little less concise next time around...

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/adhomine.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

So, you are attempting to discredit Merriam-Webster as a resource?

I'll allow the readers to decide for themselves as to whether the definition from Merriam-Webster is valid and whether that definition is applicable to your earlier posts in this thread. They can also use the same reasoning process to validate/invalidate my assertion that you have also used the tactic in other threads.

Feel free to reenter the thread discussion and provide something substantive to support your conjectured extrapolations.  Such as:

... could drive woman to be desperate enough to, for instance, sell herself to a [possibly fat] man older than her father.

The fact that, for instance, [possibly fat] old men take advantage of that desperation is exploitative.

Got it yet?

Certainly, we get it.

Could... desperate enough to... sell herself (with this you've added yet another obstacle to your position which will require more effort to prove than "unfair advantage")... fact that (your assumption sans evidence that something you state is a fact)

These are, at best, suppositions for some individual scenarios sans evidence that any of this does exist and that, if it does, that the situations are prevalent in high enough percentages (whatever that would be) for some general label to apply.

[calmissile]

Quote from BillyB

"My decision to get involved with FSU women abroad and at home is simple. I think Slavic women are the most beautiful women in the world so I want them one."

Also, what started my search for a FSUW.

Quote from MissA

“I feel that word is correct. For you Ukraine is a country on a map. For me it is homeland. For you guys trying to get best deal they could. For me they exploit misfortunes of my homeland. Would you remain indifferent if some guys across world decided weight of their wallets entitles them to something in your homeland?”

MissA,
Your quoted post really explains the core problem you have with WM marrying UA women.  I will paraphrase:

1.   You love your homeland and you feel that foreign interests are draining it of your beloved, beautiful women!  I understand your feelings.  Perhaps, I would feel the same way if I were in your shoes.  What I have a problem with is where you are laying the blame. First of all, your women are seeking and marrying foreign husbands.  Perhaps your lobbying would be better directed to these women rather than the target of their choices.

It’s like blaming the casino or the liquor company for providing a service, rather than the customer that chooses the product or service.

If your dissatisfaction with the economic conditions of UA is what you consider the root of the problem of fleeing UA women, then perhaps you should join a political party and put your efforts into solving the root cause.     

2.   I think you are mistaken that men are targeting economically disadvantaged countries as the primary motivation.  The recent couples that I am friends with did not marry women from a poor background.  In fact, most of them had businesses and were self sufficient.  My wife for example has a very high paid position in a large UA company and does not need to immigrate to the US for her survival.  In addition, she has double Masters degrees, and is marketable in the US as well.  I see it as more of a case of “That’s where the women are that are searching for marriage and better family life.”  The fact that many WM consider them beautiful is of course a natural draw.

To the extent that there is some merit to your argument, it is probably safe to say that WM will evaluate whether he is able to make a woman happy in a marriage considering his financial condition.  A WM is not likely going to make a female millionaire happy with his blue/white collar income, so why target that market.

3.   There also seems to be some merit in the often mentioned phrase that UA women are in search of love and family rather than money.  There was no way for me to know for sure, but the observations I have made in my own case as well as several friends/members that recently got married seems to confirm that this is often the case.  I was amused when friends and acquaintances ask my wife “Do you like America?”  Her response is always “I love my husband”.  I was initially taken back a little with her answer, but it tells me that she made a decision to marry me for my qualities rather than my wallet.  She also previously had told me some time ago, that she will live anywhere I want to live. I does not need to be the USA.

4.   MissA,  I asked you previously a question you did not answer.  Would you prefer that your UA sisters continue to live in economic disadvantaged conditions, rather than marry and move to a different country and improve their lifestyle?  I think the question deserves an answer.

[fathertime]

Actually, I think you are just clueless on how people use the term "punter" and won't admit it. Even when I pointed it out you, you are so caught up in that anger and angst that you still preferred to think it was used in the most derogatory fashion possible. lol

Let me give you another example even you cannot ignore and I'll wait for your apology with bated breath;

What does a post by JayH, 2 weeks ago have to do with your use of the term 'punters' in context?  You have been playing childish semantics games with just about everybody, as a poor substitute for substantive responses..  At least 4 times now you have had an opportunity to state YOUR meaning, because it sure looked like you were calling voters something derogatory.  You have taken the cowardly way out each time, I was prepared to concede the point and move on to bigger and better things,  if the response made sense... Overall, you seem to make hollow accusations, but don't argue well when challenged on those points.   


Fathertime!   

[missAmeno]

You are correct. Semantically those are not the same but in this scenario to prove "unfairness" you must prove both, i.e., the effect of economic  on the decision making process of women and how men use that to gain an unfair advantage.

и опять все сначала 

Dave, they are not same and to prove one there is no need to prove another.
Are you going to argue that economic and social conditions are equal in FSU and Western countries? Do you really need evidence to see the difference? Do you really think it is fair for someone from developed country to use to his own advantage limited options available to those from developing country?

[fathertime]

Do you really think it is fair for someone from developed country to use to his own advantage limited options available to those from developing country?

Is this an issue of FAIR now?  Does everything have to be equal in this world OR it is exploitation?  Well I don't think it is FAIR that young foolish men get to look better and have all their hair.  Can you do something about that?  I don't think it is fair that some people have more choices than I do, they are exploiting me and my lessor amount of choices.  I don't think it is fair that ugly women don't get to have handsome prince charming, so I think MissAmeno should dress down, not shower, and leave her hair a rats nest, to even things up a bit.   


Fathertime! 

[calmissile]

и опять все сначала 

Dave, they are not same and to prove one there is no need to prove another.
Are you going to argue that economic and social conditions are equal in FSU and Western countries? Do you really need evidence to see the difference? Do you really think it is fair for someone from developed country to use to his own advantage limited options available to those from developing country?

OMG!  I hoped you would not slip into the ultra-left argument of what is fair or equal.  There must be better arguments to use.

You still have not answered my question..... "Would you prefer to see your sisters continue in their lives in a economically disadvantaged state (as you describe), or prefer to see them better themselves by marrying a foreigner?"

[Ade]

What does a post by JayH, 2 weeks ago have to do with your use of the term 'punters' in context?  You have been playing childish semantics games with just about everybody, as a poor substitute for substantive responses..  At least 4 times now you have had an opportunity to state YOUR meaning, because it sure looked like you were calling voters something derogatory.  You have taken the cowardly way out each time, I was prepared to concede the point and move on to bigger and better things,  if the response made sense... Overall, you seem to make hollow accusations, but don't argue well when challenged on those points.   


Fathertime!

Dude, you just don't get it. I am not here to teach you English or explain terminology just because you petulantly demand it. All I can say is if the shoe fits. Lol

Oh, and don't forget harass Jayh there for accusing those guys of using prostitutes. Lol

[fathertime]

I am not here to teach you English or explain terminology 

yes we know...you are here to make jackassacle remarks and then run scared from them when called out....


Happy 'punting'....




Fathertime! 

[missAmeno]

MissA,  I asked you previously a question you did not answer.  Would you prefer that your UA sisters continue to live in economic disadvantaged conditions, rather than marry and move to a different country and improve their lifestyle?  I think the question deserves an answer.

Sorry, I have missed your question. Weekend is almost over, still one million of things to do and tomorrow back to work. Unlikely through the week days I will have time or mental capacity to post anything of any value.

Answer to your question: of course no. I would prefer their SO move to Ukraine to live with them, transfer all their finances to Ukraine, invest into businesses and infrastructure 

On the serious note, percentage of population that desires to leave the country coupled with demographic crisis will bring serious implications. I can't blame people for desire to leave. They had enough. But it is sad to see what future holds for Ukraine. 

[missAmeno]

Is this an issue of FAIR now?  Does everything have to be equal in this world OR it is exploitation?  Well I don't think it is FAIR that young foolish men get to look better and have all their hair.  Can you do something about that?  I don't think it is fair that some people have more choices than I do, they are exploiting me and my lessor amount of choices.  I don't think it is fair that ugly women don't get to have handsome prince charming, so I think MissAmeno should dress down, not shower, and leave her hair a rats nest, to even things up a bit.   


Fathertime! 

Fathertime, Dave was arguing about 'unfair'. I was replying.

[Ade]

So, you are attempting to discredit Merriam-Webster as a resource?

No, but the definition is so concise as to be useless.

Could... desperate enough to... sell herself (with this you've added yet another obstacle to your position which will require more effort to prove than "unfair advantage")... fact that (your assumption sans evidence that something you state is a fact)

These are, at best, suppositions for some individual scenarios sans evidence that any of this does exist and that, if it does, that the situations are prevalent in high enough percentages (whatever that would be) for some general label to apply.

Of course Dave, there's no exploitation at all. Really, none. All these young ladies aren't so desperate that they would trade themselves to fat old men. It's something they'd do anyway. In fact you've convinced me totally that exploitation doesn't exist anywhere - not in the underpaid sweatshops or even in the sex industry. All adults entering into a fair trade, right?

[Konfushus]

I feel that word is correct. For you Ukraine is a country on a map. For me it is homeland. For you guys trying to get best deal they could. For me they exploit misfortunes of my homeland.

Would you remain indifferent if some guys across world decided weight of their wallets entitles them to something in your homeland?

It's an interesting question. I'll try to put myself in your shoes and imagine the reverse situation, but I will keep things true to the real situation (that the MOB business is small and the actual women dating and marrying foreigners is a tiny fraction of the population).

I imagine that men would come to my country thinking that their wallets entitled them to something (women) in my homeland. It wouldn't bother me. I would probably laugh at them. Even if they came offering much better economic and social conditions, I know they would fail (as most men fail in Russia and Ukraine).

I imagine that men would come to my country because they thought my country had better, more beautiful women. That wouldn't bother me either, and I would be happy about it if it was in any way true!

I imagine that people would be deserting my country for a better life somewhere else. Well, I don't have to imagine it! US ex-pats and emigrants are in the millions (including me), where as MOB wives are in the thousands. A lot of people I know left the area where I grew up to find better economic and social conditions. Good for them!

If I felt as strongly about my homeland as you do yours, I would be back home doing something to change the situation.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I feel like I was just exploited by 6 inches of snow and a shovel.   

[fathertime]

Fathertime, Dave was arguing about 'unfair'. I was replying.

MissAmeno,  I know you were replying when you made this statement:

  Do you really think it is fair for someone from developed country to use to his own advantage limited options available to those from developing country?

The comments i made were to demonstrate that very little if anything in this world is 'fair' as in equal...to not accept that is how it is, is futile... The vast majority of men that find wives from poor countries are not guilty of exploitation...if that is exploitation,  then poor LFU is also being exploited by the snow in his driveway...and the sun exploited the skin on top of my shiny head today..


Fathertime!