Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[Nat]

Hi guys, I'm temporarily back Missed you all!!!

No, it is more complicated as that. Kiev was once the capital of the Russian Empire, and could have been today if it were not for a self-centered attitude that caused a breakaway. This sentiment is still noticeable in the relations, Ukrainians secretly consider themselves to be an influential area and wish to regain the power and wealth they once had before Stalin ruined everything. Russians consider Ukraine to be self-centered and ungrateful.
I am exagerating my comparisons on purpose, individual people will have very different individual opinions.

Well, that's not exactly how it is. Kiev never was a capital of Russian Empire, it was a capital of Kiev Russ - absolutely different state, more powerful and ancient than modern Russia. In fact, Moscow lands were uninhabited long after the appearance of Kiev Russ.
Nowadays Russian policy on their TV Channels etc. is totally against Ukraine - they say Ukraine steals from them, overcrowds them with uneducated workforce etc., so for most of Russians Ukraine is almost an enemy and a land of idiots at the same time. A lot of Russian celebrities and politics allow themselves very diminishing speeches about Ukraine on TV.
At the same time, the government of Ukraine have always tried to create an image of Russia as our beloved Big Brother, who will always wait for Ukraine and love it, because we're the same flesh and blood. Those who have access to both Russian and Ukrainian TV channels and listen carefully can do the math, so there aren't many people who would really like Ukraine to become a part of Russia - only those, who are quite uneducated to think or have strong ties with soviet past. Or have relatives in Russia, which is also a frequent case.
So why would Ukrainian government create such an image? What for? Because they don't care about anything but stuffing their pockets with cash. They don't want Ukraine to integrate with Europe, because the don't need Ukrainians to see how people live in Europe and get ideas about why we live so badly, they don't need anybody from Europe to control them and prevent them from stealing, they don't need Europe here at their playground. That's the issue.

[Misha]

Americans do claim whatever country in Europe they came from as 'motherland' 

Most Europeans that I know would also object to being integrated into the United States because of any claimed past 

[Misha]

In fact, Moscow lands were uninhabited long after the appearance of Kiev Russ.

They were inhabited, just not inhabited by Slavs Even the Russian name Moskva indicates a Finno-Ugrian origin, as -va is usually a place name indicating a location next to a river.

[lordtiberius]

They were inhabited, just not inhabited by Slavs Even the Russian name Moskva indicates a Finno-Ugrian origin, as -va is usually a place name indicating a location next to a river.

 

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/Reality-Check/2014/0203/Would-Western-aid-to-Ukraine-be-a-setback

http://world.time.com/2014/02/01/how-russia-is-fighting-to-regain-control-of-ukraine/

[Nat]

They were inhabited, just not inhabited by Slavs Even the Russian name Moskva indicates a Finno-Ugrian origin, as -va is usually a place name indicating a location next to a river.

Seriously? Well, I don't know about tribes, but the first time the name Moscow was mentioned was on April, 4, 1147, whereas Kiev Russ was created in 839. So basically when Kiev Russ was blossoming, Moscow was just a land with a lot of swamps...

[Shadow]

Hi guys, I'm temporarily back Missed you all!!!


Well, that's not exactly how it is. Kiev never was a capital of Russian Empire, it was a capital of Kiev Russ - absolutely different state, more powerful and ancient than modern Russia. In fact, Moscow lands were uninhabited long after the appearance of Kiev Russ.
Nowadays Russian policy on their TV Channels etc. is totally against Ukraine - they say Ukraine steals from them, overcrowds them with uneducated workforce etc., so for most of Russians Ukraine is almost an enemy and a land of idiots at the same time. A lot of Russian celebrities and politics allow themselves very diminishing speeches about Ukraine on TV.
At the same time, the government of Ukraine have always tried to create an image of Russia as our beloved Big Brother, who will always wait for Ukraine and love it, because we're the same flesh and blood. Those who have access to both Russian and Ukrainian TV channels and listen carefully can do the math, so there aren't many people who would really like Ukraine to become a part of Russia - only those, who are quite uneducated to think or have strong ties with soviet past. Or have relatives in Russia, which is also a frequent case.
So why would Ukrainian government create such an image? What for? Because they don't care about anything but stuffing their pockets with cash. They don't want Ukraine to integrate with Europe, because the don't need Ukrainians to see how people live in Europe and get ideas about why we live so badly, they don't need anybody from Europe to control them and prevent them from stealing, they don't need Europe here at their playground. That's the issue.

It is funny how both countries believe they display a fair and positive picture of the other but getting a bad one in return.

If you wish to make it clear to Americans how Ukraine is often seen, just tell them Mexico.

[Nat]

If you wish to make it clear to Americans how Ukraine is often seen, just tell them Mexico.

Haha, good one! 

[jone]

It is funny how both countries believe they display a fair and positive picture of the other but getting a bad one in return.

If you wish to make it clear to Americans how Ukraine is often seen, just tell them Mexico.

Actually, I was going to say Great Britain.  But, same difference.   

[Muzh]

Actually, I was going to say Great Britain.  But, same difference.   

You are very generous. I was going to say "the rest of the world" which is more à propos . 

[lordtiberius]

Every off topic post is a pro-Putin post.  Thx.

[JayH]

Haha, good one! 

The words apply to your post#75 above-- nice summary-thx.

[Anotherkiwi]

Hi guys, I'm temporarily back Missed you all!!!

Well of course it's  , but welcome back - some of us have missed you too!  Where have you been hiding - still in Donetsk?  What's this "temporarily" - have you done something drastic, such as getting married? 

[Faux Pas]

Hi guys, I'm temporarily back Missed you all!!!

Hiya Nat!!

Welcome back!!    Why only temporarily?

[lordtiberius]

A German news program in English about Ukraine:

[Nat]

Well of course it's  , but welcome back - some of us have missed you too!  Where have you been hiding - still in Donetsk?  What's this "temporarily" - have you done something drastic, such as getting married? 

Hiya Nat!!

Welcome back!!    Why only temporarily?

  (not a pro-Putin one ) Still in Donetsk, still absolutely free Temporarily - because I'm trying to spend less time on the Internet now and this forum is soooooo catchy - if you get into it, you can't get out, because all the discussions are interesting and you can't help but participate

The words apply to your post#75 above-- nice summary-thx.

[mendeleyev]

From today's Mendeleyev Journal:

Will Russia intervene in Ukraine?

It is not a trivial question, for the idea of Russian intervention in the ongoing street protests in Ukraine is the subject of growing speculation in Moscow. Should Russia intervene in Ukraine depends on your definition of Ukraine.

If Ukraine is simply a part of the Russian Empire that can't get along without guidance from Moscow as some say, then Russia may feel justification in moving to intervene under the guise of restoring order, protecting Russian citizens, and a return to historical borders of the old Empire.


(Source: wikipedia)

When Dmitry Peskov said early this week that Moscow is concerned about growing Russophobia in Ukraine, one should listen. Peskov is Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesman and has considerable influence as a key adviser to Mr. Putin. When Peskov speaks to an issue one can almost be certain that it has been vetted by his boss. Mr. Putin himself has articulated the doctrine of Russia's right to protect Russian citizens anywhere in the world and there are a lot of Russian passport holders in Eastern Ukraine.

Yesterday Sergei Glazyev, another key adviser to President Vladimir Putin, accused the USA of staging a coup against Yanukovich's pro-Russian government and warned that Russia held the right to step in and "maintain security" for Ukraine. Glazyev told Kommersant newspaper that U.S. "interference" had breached the 1994 treaty on Ukraine between Russian and the USA which guaranteed Ukrainian sovereignty.



This map shows the original Ukrainian borders and then additions later.

In the Kommersant article Glazyev expressed support for what he called the "federalization" of Ukraine which would break up the country into smaller Russian controlled regions and that the area of Eastern Ukraine should be brought under the new Customs Union with Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus and Armenia.

Ukrainian President Yanukovich and Russian President Putin will meet tomorrow, 7 February, during the opening ceremony of the Winter Olympics in Sochi. Several key Russian advisers are saying that the USA and EU are blackmailing Yanukovich with threats of economic sanctions and seizure of assets outside of Ukraine.

Russian President Putin on Russian television last year admitted that Russia had used the cover of the 2008 Olympics to intervene in Georgia. Previously Russia had argued that Georgia started the fighting. That short war led to the creation of the internationally disputed countries Abkhazia and South Ossetia, carved from what had been Georgian territories.

[Muzh]

It's beyond civil war IF what you suggest the Russians are planning will happen.

[Larry1]

Mendy,

I'm curious about the second map you posted.  I could probably see the answer if my Russian weren't so poor.  I assume the area in pink/red was some sort of core Ukraine.  The area in yellow I think was the territory conquered and brought into the Russian empire.  The territory in green was land Stalin took and made into the Ukrainian part of the USSR during the second world war.  The Crimean peninsula, in lavender, was transferred from the Russian SSR to the Ukrainian SSR during the Kruschev era.  But what is the territory in blue?  Why was it not considered part of Ukrainian territory prior to 1922?  I realize that Ukraine had hardly existed as a separate country before then.

[jone]

I had thought that the following described Ukraine and Russia in 1914.



Is there some different structure that I am unaware of?

[jone]

Here is the make-up of Imperial Russia in 1914:

[jone]

I always liked this map as well. 

[Larry1]

Much of the territory that is now in Belarus and Western Ukraine has been ruled by various powers over the last few centuries.  I find it especially difficult to figure out which cities in Western Ukraine were part of which particular country at which times.  It would be helpful to have a map with an overlay of the different borders at different times.

[SANDRO43]

It would be helpful to have a map with an overlay of the different borders at different times.

You can find a series of time maps on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ukraine. I found this one interesting because at lower left it shows the little-known "country" of Bessarabia, where an uncle of mine's wife originally came from:

[Larry1]

Thank you Sandro.  That map is helpful for the period it covers: 18th century through 1917.

[fathertime]

Victoria Nuland

another US busybody nitwit trying to stir things up in UKraine...Why is it that we (the united states) HAS to involve ourselves and try to foment this country's revolution?  I say let them all be...let them do what they are going to do like practically every other damn country is doing...I don't see a good enough reason for us to be sticking our big prying snout in ukraine....Kerry is doing the same sorta crap over in Israel...  We are not at responsible for these countries...we are not doing such a great job here at home anyway. 


Fathertime!