Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[calmissile]

Seems not only the US is spying on diplomatic phone calls.   LOL
New York Times: US points to Russia as diplomats' private call is posted on web

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine-abroad/new-york-times-us-points-to-russia-as-diplomats private-call-is-posted-on-web-336408.html

Here is the conversation.....  manually start from the beginning.

[mendeleyev]

Larry,

That is an area gifted to Ukraine by Lenin.

This map is very helpful in understanding current Russian attitudes but in terms of history it is flawed.

Most Russians are making feeble attempts to defend this line of thinking as if what was given to Ukraine can somehow be returned by force. Using the same flawed logic the Swedes might have a thing or two to say about Saint Petersburg, the Finns on Karelia, Japan on the Kuril islands, and if we're to be intellectually honest, Russia will soon return Kaliningrad around the same time as China reclaims what is now called the Russian Far East.

Most Russians have geographical amnesia and forget that that Kyiv was a nation-state long before there was a Russian Empire. I'm not holding my breath while waiting for Russia to turn over the deeds to much of southern Ukraine back to Greece and modern day Turkey either. Russians have an amazing loss of memory cells over Astrakhan and what is in more modern times known as southern Russia.

As there is a movement to try and make lame reasons for returning the gifts given to the borders of early Ukraine, then it is equally fair to look at the original borders of the Russian state. Nobody wants to do that because Russia grew large not by using the services of real estate agents to purchase land, but took it by force or as the Tsars were so fond of saying, "enlarging the Empire." We've all heard of Tatarstan and other places like the Caucasus regions such as Chechnya and Dagestan for example.

No large nation is innocent. Not Russia, the USA, nor the British Empire of old.

History can be a bitch at times. 

[tfcrew]

Judge Who Sentenced Protesters Shot Dead in Ukraine

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140212/187460252/Judge-Who-Sentenced-Protesters-Shot-Dead-in-Ukraine.html

[tfcrew]

At least 9 dead in Kiev protests   From Victoria Butenko, for CNN updated 1:16 PM EST, Tue February 18, 2014
Kiev, Ukraine (CNN) -- At least nine people died Tuesday in protests in Kiev, seven of them civilians and two police, authorities said.
The casualties occurred after protesters set fire to the headquarters of the ruling Party of Regions and as violence roiled the capital for the first time in more than two weeks.

 http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/18/world/europe/ukraine-protests/

[BillyB]

My MIL just read 10 dead in Ukrainian news. She's crying and she leaves for Kiev tomorrow. When my wife comes home after college and hear the news, she'll be crying too. I don't think I'll get much sleep tonight.

[ghost of moon goddess]

[steveh1155]

My MIL just read 10 dead in Ukrainian news. She's crying and she leaves for Kiev tomorrow. When my wife comes home after college and hear the news, she'll be crying too. I don't think I'll get much sleep tonight.

Just got off the phone with my fiancee, who lives just 15 miles south of Kyiv, and the news there was reporting 10 dead, and then all the Maidan coverage on tv was cut off by the government.....and the Kyiv Metro has been shut down and streets into and out of Kyiv closed/restricted. She told me that the rumors are flying that Putin will send in troops to "protect" the Russian people in Eastern Ukraine even before the Olympics are over. Of course I have no idea, but I can tell she's scared which makes it especially difficult to be 6000 miles away from her.

[BillyB]

and then all the Maidan coverage on tv was cut off by the government

My MIL has a brother in law who works for a tv station and he was sent home early.

and the Kyiv Metro has been shut down and streets into and out of Kyiv closed/restricted.

True story and my MIL won't be able to travel to and stay with her sister and brother in law in Kiev then later take a train to her home city Ivano-Frankivsk. I'm currently looking to find her a flight from Kiev to Ivano-Frankivsk. May be a waste of time if the government shuts down the airports too.


We made a decision my MIL goes back unless there is war. The increased violence is making things stressful. I hope the airport gets shut down. That would make decision making easy. I could then send MIL to some other country so she doesn't violate the conditions of her tourist visa and work on getting her another six months stay in America.

[Noch1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Y_LFrMcoEm4

[SteveOR]

 
It looks like Czar Vlad is getting his money's worth and all it took was a paltry $2B.
 
A truly sad day for Ukraine.  Ukrainians are good people who deserve better than to be under the thumb of two mafia thugs like Putin and Yanu. . .
 

[Chelseaboy]

13 now killed in protests in Kiev today..6 of them Police.

Confirmed reports of violence now spreading beyond Kiev..situation deteriorating by the hour.

[steveh1155]

My gal has her interview at the embassy in Kyiv in a week and a half, so I hope things calm down by then. Although she tells me the embassy isn't located near the protest area, it may make traveling anywhere in Kyiv a little dicey.

[Hammer2722]

My gal has her interview at the embassy in Kyiv in a week and a half, so I hope things calm down by then. Although she tells me the embassy isn't located near the protest area, it may make traveling anywhere in Kyiv a little dicey.

She is right, the emnassy recently moved quite a ways away from all that so she should hopefully be able to get there without any problems. Good luck!

[Vinnvinny]

I was due to be in Kiev this weekend but my landlady has just written to tell me about what’s going on. My flat is near to the Opera House (some way from Maiden) but she says the property has been damaged, people are shooting on the street near there and there are thousands of people stranded in the centre because as they cant get the metro, a bus or a taxi home.

I might have to change my plans.

[steveh1155]

NBC now reporting 18 dead. Very sad.

[SteveOR]

 
Kyiv Post is now reporting 22 dead.  That's too many families that won't see their loved ones again.  Very sad indeed. . .
 
 

[jone]

I was due to be in Kiev this weekend but my landlady has just written to tell me about what’s going on. My flat is near to the Opera House (some way from Maiden) but she says the property has been damaged, people are shooting on the street near there and there are thousands of people stranded in the centre because as they cant get the metro, a bus or a taxi home.

I might have to change my plans.

I stay just down the street at the Opera Hotel, Vinny.  My favorite place in Kyiv.  I have heard many a concert in the Kyiv Opera House.

[BillyB]

US State Department has issued a travel alert saying the situation has escalated sharply and is unpredictable.

http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/alertswarnings/ukraine-travel-alert.html

 MIL and wife are scared and unless things change quickly which is highly unlikely, they have decided MIL is not getting on the plane tomorrow. She won't be in violation of her tourist visa. We still have over 3 weeks before her six month stay is up to decide where she's going to go whether it be Dominican Republic or fly into Lviv, Ukraine.

[Muzh]

My gal has her interview at the embassy in Kyiv in a week and a half, so I hope things calm down by then. Although she tells me the embassy isn't located near the protest area, it may make traveling anywhere in Kyiv a little dicey.

The embassy is out in the boondocks.

[SteveOR]

This appears to be a tweet from a Washington Post blogger.  I found it on the live updates section of Reuters.  If true, this is very serious as it looks like Yanu is trying to involve the military:
 
"max_fisher @Max_Fisher Ukraine president Yanukovych just fired his army chief. The big question is why. If it was for failing to accept crackdown orders: bad. Bad." 

[BillyB]

Ukraine president Yanukovych just fired his army chief. The big question is why. If it was for failing to accept crackdown orders: bad. Bad."

Why? Because the military chief didn't follow orders. Yanukovych will now place in charge a man who will make the military crack down on terrorists, formally know as protestors, as he now labels them.

[Larry1]

Why? Because the military chief didn't follow orders. Yanukovych will now place in charge a man who will make the military crack down on terrorists, formally know as protestors, as he now labels them.

For quite some time I've thought there was a good possibility that Yanukovych would order the army to deal with the opposition.  His various police units have not been able to stop opposition activists.

It seems likely that Yanukovych fired the head of the army because he wouldn't comply with his order to loose the army upon the anti-government activists. It also seems likely that he will find an army chief who will follow his orders to go after the activists. I wonder whether the troops will fire on their fellow Ukrainians.

I also wonder whether elements of the army might recoil from orders to fire on their fellow Ukrainians and stage a coup against the Yanukovych government.

[Jumper]

This begs the  question ,if the new head of the army gets poor results..
due to an possible unwillingness of Ukrainian military personal to engage.

Will Putin send in Russian troops as aid to Yanukovych?

[Noch1]

This begs the  question ,if the new head of the army gets poor results..
due to an possible unwillingness of Ukrainian military personal to engage.

Will Putin send in Russian troops as aid to Yanukovych?

Putin said today he would not be sending troops and would not even give
the prez advice last night, so they say.

[SteveOR]

Will Putin send in Russian troops as aid to Yanukovych?

The Olympic Closing Ceremony is Sunday.  After that I think anything is possible including Russian troops and tanks entering Ukraine.