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Author Topic: Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members  (Read 270575 times)

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Offline JayH

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The only way out is NATO involvement.  If Canada could send troops into Ukraine or if Canada were to asset its claims against Russia in the Artic, and activate the NATO clause, NATO would have to get involved and stop the spread of Putinism.

Ukraine needs urgent help --UN, NATO etc whatever. They need aircover urgently and that can be almost immediate.
Putin needs to know that there will be consequences.Right now--the simple threat of a head on confrontation with the west will be enough to slow his immediate ambitions.
Full on economic measures against Russia are what is also needed.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2014, 09:01:30 PM by JayH »
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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I spoke to a Euromaidan activist still living in Ukraine.  He says Yanuk pretty much gutted the military.  The troops are not trained to take on the Russian army but now they must.  I remember being there a year ago and the whole point of NATO was to resist Russia but I spoke to two air force men and they seemed to detest the idea of fighting Russians who they regard as brothers.  It would be like turning your guns on Canadians or Kiwis - kinda disgusting.  A NATO show of force that was bloodless could end this.

Offline JayH

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I spoke to a Euromaidan activist still living in Ukraine.  He says Yanuk pretty much gutted the military.  The troops are not trained to take on the Russian army but now they must.  I remember being there a year ago and the whole point of NATO was to resist Russia but I spoke to two air force men and they seemed to detest the idea of fighting Russians who they regard as brothers.  It would be like turning your guns on Canadians or Kiwis - kinda disgusting.  A NATO show of force that was bloodless could end this.

I think that is all fair comment . But-- given air support,intelligence,logistics and equipment-- they could provide enough deterrent to temper Putins ambitions .
Any help to be of any use needs to be now-not after a months machinations.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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I don't think people are prepared for how badly this could go and how quickly.  Russia's air force is second rate but that's still pretty good.  Their pilots and equipment are beyond the ability of Ukraine which did not maintain their Air Force after independence.  I see three fronts opening up one from the South in the Black Sea, the East along the Russian border and another opening up along the Belarussian front.  It will start with an Aerial Campaign that must ground the Ukrainian air force and military assets before they get a chance to mobilize against Crimea.  Then the tanks will roll across.  Then it will be a gut check.  Obama will resist doing anything about it.  Obama's inaction will shame the Europeans into doing something.  Look for refugees to head west.

Now what the Nazis did was to destroy the transportation systems which kept the Polish from counterattacking because they had to get through their civilian population.  Now by that the international community could turn on Russia which is why Russia would lean on China.  This is assuming China does not want to alienate Russia and that it would presumably pursue its own interests notably Taiwan.  Putin is a dictator and these men rest on their prestige.  Nothing is as prestigious as military campaign and conversely it could spell his doom if it goes BADLY. 

Now what Ukraine could do is what Chechenya did in the first war which is to turn their cities into kill sacks.  Neighborhood by neighborhood, street by street, 4 man teams with Kalishnikovs and RPGs would find the soft spots on the Armor - the rear and sides and they annihilated entire columns.  Google Colonel Savin.  That is a strategy that Ukraine could use to hold off the Russians until the International Community - NATO acts.

NATO could act by sinking every ship in the Russian Navy.  Russia has a great Navy but against the combined forces of NATO, I wouldn't give them three months.  You want to see Putin withdraw from Syria?  Sink his navy.  I guarantee that the Moscovites would have him impaled on their pitch forks.

You said the Russia should be partitioned.  I completely agree.  The main thing is to separate Moscow from Russia.  Any NATO attack on the Russian homeland would trigger a nuclear response.  The only way into Russia is through the Caucuses.  Funnel a bunch of CIA money through the Caucuses into all sorts of separatist and dissident groups.  Negotiate with the opposition for a post-Putin Russia.  Offer generous terms - we just want one person - Vladimir Vladimirovich.

Offline dogspot

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I don't think people are prepared for how badly this could go and how quickly.  Russia's air force is second rate but that's still pretty good.  Their pilots and equipment are beyond the ability of Ukraine which did not maintain their Air Force after independence.  I see three fronts opening up one from the South in the Black Sea, the East along the Russian border and another opening up along the Belarussian front.  It will start with an Aerial Campaign that must ground the Ukrainian air force and military assets before they get a chance to mobilize against Crimea.  Then the tanks will roll across.  Then it will be a gut check.  Obama will resist doing anything about it.  Obama's inaction will shame the Europeans into doing something.  Look for refugees to head west.

Now what the Nazis did was to destroy the transportation systems which kept the Polish from counterattacking because they had to get through their civilian population.  Now by that the international community could turn on Russia which is why Russia would lean on China.  This is assuming China does not want to alienate Russia and that it would presumably pursue its own interests notably Taiwan.  Putin is a dictator and these men rest on their prestige.  Nothing is as prestigious as military campaign and conversely it could spell his doom if it goes BADLY. 

Now what Ukraine could do is what Chechenya did in the first war which is to turn their cities into kill sacks.  Neighborhood by neighborhood, street by street, 4 man teams with Kalishnikovs and RPGs would find the soft spots on the Armor - the rear and sides and they annihilated entire columns.  Google Colonel Savin.  That is a strategy that Ukraine could use to hold off the Russians until the International Community - NATO acts.

NATO could act by sinking every ship in the Russian Navy.  Russia has a great Navy but against the combined forces of NATO, I wouldn't give them three months.  You want to see Putin withdraw from Syria?  Sink his navy.  I guarantee that the Moscovites would have him impaled on their pitch forks.

You said the Russia should be partitioned.  I completely agree.  The main thing is to separate Moscow from Russia.  Any NATO attack on the Russian homeland would trigger a nuclear response.  The only way into Russia is through the Caucuses.  Funnel a bunch of CIA money through the Caucuses into all sorts of separatist and dissident groups.  Negotiate with the opposition for a post-Putin Russia.  Offer generous terms - we just want one person - Vladimir Vladimirovich.

 :ROFL:

Is all of this going to be in the next comic?

Offline JayH

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26403297

Moscow's Ukraine gamble

This is fast turning into the worst crisis between Russia and the West since the short conflict between Georgia and Russia back in 2008.

That war ended with Georgia humbled and the Russians firmly in control of two breakaway, largely Russian-speaking Georgian enclaves.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia were subsequently recognised by Moscow as separate states, though effectively protectorates of Russia.

The West for all its condemnation was left largely as a spectator on the sidelines.

The Crimea drama is of an altogether different significance.

If this turns into a full-scale battle of wills between Moscow and Kiev, the consequences could be unthinkable - at worst the provocation of a bitter civil war inside Ukraine; instability on Europe's frontiers; and a bitter legacy between the Russian President Vladimir Putin and the West that could have serious ramifications across a range of international problems from Syria to the fate of Iran's nuclear programme.

Continue reading the main story
Crimea

Autonomous republic within Ukraine
Transferred from Russia in 1954
Ethnic Russians - 58.5%
Ethnic Ukrainians - 24.4%
Crimean Tatars - 12.1%
Source: Ukraine census 2001

What is so dangerous about Crimea?
Ukraine's next flashpoint?
Crimea profile
What in many ways is so remarkable is how predictable Russia's behaviour has been; straight from the post-Soviet play-book.

It has involved a combination of political rhetoric (talk of threats to Russian minorities, orthodox religious sites and so on), threats of economic pressure (the imposition of new customs duties at the Russian-Ukrainian frontier), and overt military action at least in the Crimea with key installations and government buildings seized by troops in unmarked uniforms whose weaponry, vehicles and behaviour marked them out as regular service personnel taking their orders from Moscow.

For all the talk of a potential Russian invasion of Crimea, the facts on the ground are such that Russia, to a large extent, is already in control there.

The Black Sea Fleet headquarters in Sevastopol gives Moscow all the military clout it needs to overawe local Ukrainian defence forces, and the Russians look to have been bolstered by small numbers of specialist units flown in over recent days.

While the upper house of Russia's parliament has given approval for a more widespread deployment of troops to Ukraine, many experts wonder if this really remains an option for the Russian president or is merely a signal intended to up the pressure on Ukraine's new interim government.

The danger of course is that such bellicose rhetoric from Moscow may inflame local tensions in the more pro-Russian eastern part of Ukraine.

Disturbances and violence would inevitably give Russian forces a pretext to act though here their involvement is more likely to spark a bitter civil war.

Risks
The Russian president's behaviour may be predictable in regard to past crises in Russia's "near-abroad" but in another light it is more perplexing.

There are huge risks here for a Russia that for the moment may be buoyed up by strong oil and gas prices but which is highly susceptible to fluctuations in energy markets.

Map of Black Sea Fleet key locations
Russia has re-established itself as a diplomatic player on the world stage, not least given its pivotal (though not uncontroversial) role in the Syrian crisis.

Is Mr Putin really ready to put this international standing at risk? More significantly in the Ukrainian context, while this is fast developing into a crisis with overtones of Cold War tensions, the reality of Ukraine's difficulties comes down to one simple truth.

It is fast becoming an economic basket-case due to the mismanagement and pilfering of the previous leadership in Kiev.

It needs massive external economic support. This cannot come from Russia alone. It would prove a millstone around the Russian economy's neck.

Limited options
Any economic solution must draw in international financial institutions and Western governments too.

That is going to involve some kind of partnership with Moscow and there is not currently going to be much good will towards the Kremlin.

For all the noises of international disapproval of Russia's course from European leaders and even from Washington, there is little these countries can do in the short term beyond registering their discontent.

US President Barack Obama has underlined that there will be costs to Russia for any military intervention in Ukraine. But Washington's options are limited.

The crisis in many ways highlights how successive Obama administrations have struggled to form a new relationship with Russia.

The failed "re-set" in ties with Moscow of Mr Obama's first term has given way to an uneasy effort at crisis management in the second, punctuated by moments of displeasure.

Mr Obama's decision not to attend the Sochi Winter Olympics was seen by many as a gesture of disapproval at the growing harassment of gay people in Russia.

Washington and the European Union may seek to craft a more supportive policy towards the new authorities in Kiev.

But the Russian president has moved first to secure Russia's interests, in the hope of ensuring that Moscow will continue to have a key role in helping to shape Ukraine's political future.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline steveboy

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Yeah wow, it's really unfortunate we're not subjugated to the Russian State media 24/7 so we would know what is really going on as well as what all Ukrainians all know and what Americans say on forums. You have zero credibility and incapable of any intelligent discussion. Good luck in the gulags

Typical Yank :deadhorse:

Offline steveboy

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Lets just keep the "Empire" from poking their big beak into matters? I mean they actually have the worst human rights abuse on the planet, under all their slick image they portray , just dig a little deeper and its a whole different story.

BUT as history always shows every "Empire " comes to and end at some point.


http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_03_02/China-stigmatizes-US-for-worst-foreigner-abuse-record-2480/

Offline steveboy

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Many of the new Government in Ukraine were next door neighbours to Victor Yanukovych  :)




http://voiceofrussia.com/2014_03_01/photo-Mansions-of-Euromaidan-leaders-1213/?slide-1

Offline BC

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Wasn't one of the primary justifications for the invasion of Panama "safeguarding the lives of U.S. citizens"?  Obviously there were many other US interests involved.

All I am saying is that such actions are neither unusual, without precedent nor unique to Russia.

IMHO the media and politicians are simply spouting rhetorical fodder to incite fear.

So what if RU even officially takes control of Crimea with popular support.  Heck they've have de facto control for decades.. We'll get over it.

Offline steveboy

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I think on the "Empire" side of things, they have f***** up enough countries already, its pretty clear poking their big beak into Ukraine has already caused enough problems! What is it with those half wits running the Empire?

Most of Europe cannot stand the "Half wits" poking their nose in. But what the heck as the Empire says "F*** the EU"

Great isn't we have some imperialist Empire basically telling everyone in Europe "F**** U" we we do things as we see fit!


http://therebel.org/news/presstv/741890-tapped-call-shows-us-meddling-in-ukraine

Offline justme100

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The troops are not trained to take on the Russian army but now they must.
You can also ask your friend how many warships in the Navy have Inmarsat on board and how long these ships remain without any information as to situation on sea while the electricity is off in the headquarters of the Navy for debts ;)

Offline Chelseaboy

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Ukraine puts all troops on full alert..and all reservists being called up,as the Prime Minister states Russia has declared war on Ukraine amid calls for help from the USA and UK.

Nato secretary-general declares Russia is threatening peace and security in Europe.

675,000 ethnic Russians have fled from Ukraine to Russia.

Russian troops ask Ukrainian troops at Army base at Simferopol to surrender..the Ukrainians refused.

Things are escalating toward a major war ...that tsunami is heading toward Russia.



Just saying it like it is.

Offline justme100

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Russian troops ask Ukrainian troops at Army base at Simferopol to surrender..the Ukrainians refused.

lie :)

Offline Chelseaboy

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It's not a lie you fool.

English tv reporters are speaking with the Ukrainian commander at the Simferopol army base..they watched him and the Russian commander stand-off against each other today

The Russian commander then went back and said ok,but can you stop pointing the barrels of your tanks at our troops..to which the Ukrainian commander complied.

Looks like us in the west are better informed than you justme100

Just saying it like it is.

Offline steveboy

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It's not a lie you fool.

English tv reporters are speaking with the Ukrainian commander at the Simferopol army base..they watched him and the Russian commander stand-off against each other today

The Russian commander then went back and said ok,but can you stop pointing the barrels of your tanks at our troops..to which the Ukrainian commander complied.

Looks like us in the west are better informed than you justme100

What I would do for the opportunity to stick your head down the toilet and flush you away 8)

Offline justme100

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What I would do for the opportunity to stick your head down the toilet and flush you away 8)
hehe, don't worry. Personal insults are always the first and the most clear sign that opponent is right. When there are no more arguments come personal insults- it's the law of polemic science, everyone knows)


As to the previous poster I can answer only one thing - you get your info from journals, while I need just to come to my working place to see what the real situation is.

Offline justme100

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By the way there was really a fact of non agreement by ukrainian militarymen in Feodosiya, but they were politely persuaded this night by Cossacks ;D

Offline Chelseaboy

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steveboy

              Packing your bags ready to do a runner to your next bolt-hole in South America yet ?

You disgust me...now jog on.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 05:50:01 AM by Chelseaboy »
Just saying it like it is.

Offline BC

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Ukraine puts all troops on full alert..and all reservists being called up,as the Prime Minister states Russia has declared war on Ukraine amid calls for help from the USA and UK.

Nato secretary-general declares Russia is threatening peace and security in Europe.

675,000 ethnic Russians have fled from Ukraine to Russia.

Russian troops ask Ukrainian troops at Army base at Simferopol to surrender..the Ukrainians refused.

Things are escalating toward a major war ...that tsunami is heading toward Russia.

My goodness..  there aren't enough airplanes, boats and cars to get 675,000 out of Ukraine to Russia in only a few days....  I doubt many have done so and would like to see evidence of such.

Offline The Natural

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What I would do for the opportunity to stick your head down the toilet and flush you away 8)

I have to come clean. I really had to laugh out loud reading this. I know I shouldn't.
 
I just thought about something in the heat of this situation. This is a Russian woman discussion board and I guess many here have wives in Russia or Ukraine. Some in the west, some east or south. Others are searching for a future wife there. I wonder if the most vocal ones here who speak in defence of the criminals in Kiev have any plans to go to areas controlled by Russia in the future. When the smoke clears, so to speak. I also wonder if Russian intelligence also has eyes on what goes on in places like this. If they monitor possible threats, foreign agents and so on.
 
Just a thought........

Offline Chelseaboy

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justme100,

                You have previously stated you work at the NAVAL base every day except Saturday and Sunday.

So,i assume you happened to be at the Simferopol ARMY base by chance today (Sunday)and can confirm the English Sky News reporters  are lying ? :rolleyes:
Just saying it like it is.

Offline Chelseaboy

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BC,

       The figure of 675,000 ethnic Russians fleeing Ukraine into Russia comes from Russian authorities...if a more specific source is made known i'll post it on here.
Just saying it like it is.

Offline Chelseaboy

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Is that why you married a foreign woman and live in Russia steveboy  ?

People living in glass houses shouldn't be throwing stones  ;D
Just saying it like it is.

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steveboy

              Packing your bags ready to do a runner to your next bolt-hole in South America yet ?

You disgust me...now jog on.

Have you ever thought of becoming a homosexual?? Just a thought 8)

 

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