Protesters in Ukraine remind us of the priceless benefits of being EU members

[fathertime]

All immaterial semantics 

Man FP you got me...I don't know if that wink means you are joking or if what I said didn't make logical sense to you.






 

There can be no valid reason to invade another country-- in the process breaching many agreements.
A point you seem to miss entirely-- a large % of the population  of the Crimea itself-- want to be Ukrainian.
I would seriously urge you to re-consider your conclusions.

Well Jay, generally speaking I of course agree that invading isn't right....I'm just looking at these circumstances and I think I can understand the viewpoint from Russia (and Crimea).  What you find relevant and what I find relevant are two different things as it relates to the hypothetical AnotherKiwi presented.  I think the long shared history between Russia and Crimea is a factor that has to be considered.  I don't know about that 73% of Russians don't agree with the move PUtin made...that doesn't seem right. My impression is that Putin has widespread support within his own country, not everybody of course, but a majority maybe a super-majority.  Perhaps you have a credible source that says different.  Either way it is nice to hear a different opinion.   

Fathertime! 

[Faux Pas]

Man FP you got me...I don't know if that wink means you are joking or if what I said didn't make logical sense to you.
 

Fathertime!

The thing is FT, none of those are the reason Putin has troops in Ukraine. Nor would those matter if the U.S. were to decide to invade Cuba. I've read a number of your posts on this subject and you strike me as the ever optimist. Kind of like right will prevail over wrong. What's right and whats wrong is very subjective and often there's not normally a dimes worth of difference in the two. Putin doesn't assess it in terms of right or wrong

[JayH]

Putin’s war

March 7, 2014, 1:06 a.m. | Editorial — by Kyiv Post

We tend to agree with those who say that Russian President Vladimir Putin has lost touch with reality by invading Ukraine’s Crimean peninsula. But he also has his lucid and spot-on moments, like on March 4 during a press conference when he talked about how ordinary Ukrainians have suffered under the corruption and misrule of czarist Russia and the post-independence presidencies of Leonid Kuchma, Viktor Yushchenko and Viktor Yanukovych.

But the former KGB colonel, who mourns the loss of the USSR, tellingly had a mental slip in skipping over how the Soviet Union attempted to destroy Ukrainian nationalism in numerous ways, including the 1932-33 Holodomor.

Other than that, Putin came across as the rogue tyrant that he is, lying about the pretext for invading. There was and is no threat to ethnic Russians. Putin simply became frightened by the prospect of democracy breaking out on his border. He has never respected Ukraine’s sovereignty as an independent nation. So, like the predator that he is, he saw an opportunity to pounce.

He didn’t even have the courage to admit that his invasion of a peninsula with 2.2 million people, known mostly as a seaside tourism destination, had been planned long before. The Kremlin continues to deny the obvious – that at least 16,000 of its troops, hiding behind masks and wearing no insignias, have been on the ground since at least Feb. 27.

Fortunately, however, the invasion has unmasked Putin as someone with whom the West cannot do business and who must be contained. As long as he stays sane enough not to start a shooting war or use nuclear weapons, the U.S. and its European allies must make the Kremlin feel the economic pain. The source of Russian wealth is oil and gas, so anything that the West can do to make democratic countries less dependent on Russian supplies will eventually and inevitably undermine Putin’s rule.

Markets should punish Russian stocks. Consumers should boycott its goods. Investors should pull out. Governments should freeze his assets.

Mercifully, despite Russian provocations, the new Crimean War has been bloodless so far – only warning shots fired in the air. This was the right Ukrainian response to Russia’s aggression. Moreover, Serhiy Aksyonov, the new pro-Kremlin puppet ruler of Crimea, deserves to be charged and tried with treason. His planned referendum asking voters to either give Crimea full autonomy or join with Russia, now scheduled on March 16, is illegal and should not be recognized. There can be no referendum at the point of a bayonet of a foreign invading army.
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/editorial/putins-war-338655.html

[fathertime]

The thing is FT, none of those are the reason Putin has troops in Ukraine. Nor would those matter if the U.S. were to decide to invade Cuba. I've read a number of your posts on this subject and you strike me as the ever optimist. Kind of like right will prevail over wrong. What's right and whats wrong is very subjective and often there's not normally a dimes worth of difference in the two. Putin doesn't assess it in terms of right or wrong

 Well I agree that from V. Putin’s perspective it is mostly about complete and unfettered access to that port…not much to do with all the other cheery things…  But those points I was making were in regards to the hypothetical regarding Cuba.  We simply wouldn’t have any cover to invade (if that matters)…in this case Putin does have that cover and a people that it appears would be happy to give him those ports in exchange for being a part of the Russian Federation (or at least out from under western Ukraine’s thumb) Putin has history, and people on his side and I think that counts for a lot. 
 
I still see this playing out as a win-win-win…the greater part of Ukraine moves closer to the Europeans, without having to contend with a peninsula full of malcontents…Russia gets their coveted ports….Crimea goes where it wants to. The USA has a very minor role in this (get Ukraine the best deal it can).  Our over involvement can turn this into a bad scene. Of course I’m one guy with a perspective…I wouldn't claim to be correct about everything.    I respect the logic behind your perspective, so what do you think?


Fathertime! 

[JayH]

Well Jay, generally speaking I of course agree that invading isn't right....I'm just looking at these circumstances and I think I can understand the viewpoint from Russia (and Crimea).  What you find relevant and what I find relevant are two different things as it relates to the hypothetical AnotherKiwi presented.  I think the long shared history between Russia and Crimea is a factor that has to be considered.  I don't know about that 73% of Russians don't agree with the move PUtin made...that doesn't seem right. My impression is that Putin has widespread support within his own country, not everybody of course, but a majority maybe a super-majority.  Perhaps you have a credible source that says different.  Either way it is nice to hear a different opinion.   

Fathertime!

I posted link to poll result previously. I would also urge you( and others) to read  some ( or all) of the material I have been posting, I have posted links or in full for the simple reason that much detail is in those posts as to background etc-- and all to lengthy to re write -- and then be challenged about the source. There is another reasom-- that was to try and put a lot of factual material where it is easy to read-already "translated" !!  Another reason is that there are many,many people on the forum with family and/or friends in Ukraine-- and trying to get as up to date info could have been crucial to them-- so this is a lot more than forum hot air to many.
Some of Putin's comments have been almost identical to Hitlers-- and now his behaviour is remarkably mimicking Hitlers invasion/s that were  rationalised away or eventually led to WW2. As US spokesman said-- this is not the last century-- the behaviour will not be tolerated. For me-- making a clear cut statement ( by confronting & maximum penalties) is needed to draw a line in the sand-- and that line needs to be on a beach on the Russian side of the Black Sea.
 


Horbulin appeals to Primakov for solution in Crimea
March 6, 2014, 11:59 p.m. | Op-ed — by Volodymyr Horbulin

Dear Mr. Primakov,
A nightmare is unfolding in front of our eyes: Russians and Ukrainians are on the edge of a military conflict. Your government refuses to hear the new Ukrainian government. Under these circumstances, we, as elder statesmen of strategic communities of these two countries, should shoulder the responsibility.

Twenty years have passed since we first met. Various events have taken place since then. Our states have been close friends, combined forces against common enemies, disagreed on small issues, reached mutual understanding, and avoided much-needed compromises. But what we did is negotiated at all times, no matter how difficult it was from time to time.

I can clearly remember how hard it was to reach a compromise on the Black Sea Fleet, and appreciate your major effort in that process. That negotiation resulted in signing the so-called Big Agreement between our two countries, which has served as basis for our bilateral relations until very recently.

Some of the conversations we have had over years were naïve views about big-league politics, many went against the common views. However, each time we agreed that lean peace is better than a fat victory, and swearing the rudest words is better than firing the softest bullets.

We are the patriots who have taken responsibility for the future of our countries many times.
We are patriots who have taken responsibility for the future of countries plenty of times. Nobody can say of running away in the face of danger, and we have always tried to reach mutual understanding. The key thing was striving for it.

Today, Russia and Ukraine are balancing on the edge of tragedy. Administrative buildings and important infrastructure facilities in Crimea have been occupied. Russian troops have invaded the Ukrainian territory, and the Russian Federation Council has approved this open violation of international law. Mass media are going mad. And the worst thing is that statesmen start believing in their own propaganda.

Tension is rising. The situation is developing extremely fast. The things we were terrified to imagine yesterday are happening today. For the first time since our independence, blood and violence have entered our politics. It’s terrible, because this is a tragedy that affects not only Ukraine, but the whole Southern and Eastern Europe.

If my country goes up in flames, the heat will reach Caucasus, Transdniestria, sparks may fly as far as the Balkans. You have the best knowledge of the most terrifying scenarios that may take place. I can clearly remember negotiations on the Transdniestria in 2000-2002 when we almost found the solution.

Unfortunately, today we are not talking about old conflicts. Vast instability, ranging from the Balkans to Central Asia and Pakistan, may become an awful reality. Nobody knows how to put out this fire.

Absence of a dialogue is dangerous in this situation. Thousands of excuses can be thought up to avoid negotiations. Instead of exchanging arguments, hysterical people go wild. Yes, it’s true that negotiations are extremely difficult. Words need to and have to be followed by actions.

But houses can be rebuilt, new tiles can be laid on the ground, and people can return to their peaceful life. Where there’s a will, there is a way. The main thing is that solution of the current conflict needs to be based on patient listening to the other party and attention to its words. It’s the ability to listen that shapes the ability to take decisions in mutual interest. But there hasn’t been much listening.

Many Russian people who claim to be experts on Ukraine have no idea what type of a country it is. They have a set of beliefs and they convince others of them. They only read the press that supports their opinion. They are arrogant and, actually, foolish. But things would be much simpler if their crazy conclusions did not serve as basis for decision-making at the state level.

The current crisis is the crisis of trust and mutual understanding.

Dear Mr. Primakov,
Our countries have a wealth of experience in resolving the toughest of conflicts. Our states have all the levers for a successful resolution. I am sure we are all capable of joining efforts to stop the growing insanity and save lives and health of our citizens.

Yes, it takes courage to go against the flow and stand on your point. But even when everyone disagrees, the common denominator for all is the principles initially formulated in the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in 1975. This document may and should become a basis for reaching mutually acceptable solutions. Ukraine complied and will comply with the rules of international law and wants the same attitude from other countries, first of all, Russia.

As elderly statesmen of our nations’ strategic communities, our mission is to find the most effective way to reach the goal when the resources are limited. Today, it means to reach a peaceful compromise.
Let’s not hide behind the fig leaves of the past. Today is happening right now and here. It’s our sacred duty to accept past challenges and find a solution now that we won’t be ashamed of for the rest of our lives.

Looking forward to your understanding and reply.

Yours sincerely,
Academician Volodymyr Horbulin

Volodymyr Horbulin is a former head of the National Security and Defense Council of Ukraine in President Leonid Kuchma’s government and a respected authority on security issues in Ukraine. The Russian language version of this letter was printed in Zerkalo Nedeli weekly.
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/horbulin-appeals-to-primakov-for-solution-in-crimea-338662.html

[JayH]

 Well I agree that from V. Putin’s perspective it is mostly about complete and unfettered access to that port…not much to do with all the other cheery things…  But those points I was making were in regards to the hypothetical regarding Cuba.  We simply wouldn’t have any cover to invade (if that matters)…in this case Putin does have that cover and a people that it appears would be happy to give him those ports in exchange for being a part of the Russian Federation (or at least out from under western Ukraine’s thumb) Putin has history, and people on his side and I think that counts for a lot. 
 
I still see this playing out as a win-win-win…the greater part of Ukraine moves closer to the Europeans, without having to contend with a peninsula full of malcontents…Russia gets their coveted ports….Crimea goes where it wants to. The USA has a very minor role in this (get Ukraine the best deal it can).  Our over involvement can turn this into a bad scene. Of course I’m one guy with a perspective…I wouldn't claim to be correct about everything.    I respect the logic behind your perspective, so what do you think?


Fathertime!

I highlighted some points you keep repeating-- that are not correct. You are swallowing the points being promoted by Russia -points used to rationalise this invasion.  A major point that you keep ignoring is that it was Ukrainian sovereign territory-- another country has no right to usurp and interfere in internal affairs.
At the root of all this is the struggle for the future-- as against the past-- you keep categorising as a clear cut thing that it is west vs east. That is not the case-- significent numbers in the east want a viable Ukrainian future-- the facts are that a majority of Ujkrainians would vote that way in free and fair elections.
Ukrainians should be given-- and should have been given the right to do that without looking down the barrell of a gun.
IN ADDITION
I just found this-it accords with a current poll I posted earlier that found 57% of Crimeans wanted to be Ukrainian-it totally rebuts the oft repeated line about a marjority wishing to be part of Russia. Even if it was the case-- that does not equal a valid reason to do it-- and certainly zero reason to invade.

"More than 50 percent of Crimea’s population is comprised of ethnic Russians with a disproportionate amount residing in Sevastopol where Russia leases a naval base. A late February poll by Kyiv-based Democratic Initiatives found that 42 percent of Crimean residents want Ukraine to unite with Russia."

[JayH]

In Crimea disconnected "1 +1" and Channel 5

At the frequency of the opposition of the Black Sea TRC broadcasts "Russia-24".


In Crimea disabled broadcasting Channel 5 and "1 +1".

On it informs "Interfax-Ukraine" .

In addition, the frequency of the Black Sea TRC, broadcast which was previously disabled, is now being broadcast Russian TV channel "Russia-24".

According to a statement Broadcasting, radio and television (BRT Concern), on Thursday at 10:00 on the radio and television transmitting station Simferopol logged gunmen along with representatives of Russian dispenser. They illegally stopped broadcasting "Channel 5" and channel "1 +1", including television signal "Russia 24" on the Black Sea TRC transmitter network and carry illegal attempts to include other Russian channels. Coverage of the Crimea Black Sea dispenser is 84%.

BRT Concern notes that on the territory of Simferopol RTPS is a large number of pro-Russian Cossacks, who threaten and carry out psychological pressure on the employees of the concern.

http://society.lb.ua/life/2014/03/06/258476_krimu_otklyuchili_11_5_kanal.html

Comment--Net effect is to broadcast  Russian channels and stop access to Ukrainian TV.
I borrowed the comments below but 100% endorse --

"As Putin rushes to hold a bayonet referendum in Crimea, his local minions are already at work introducing Kremlin censorship to the occupied Ukrainian peninsula. Today two of Ukraine's biggest national TV channels - Kanal 5 and 1 + 1 - were blocked in Crimea. The Russian invasion forces are expected to clamp down on all free media in the coming days as they seek to tighten their stranglehold over the people of Crimea. Russian TV channels have played a key role in whipping anti-Ukrainian sentiment in Crimea, with news channels creating fake reports on non-existent examples of Ukrainian fascist attacks on oppressed Russian minorities. While this propaganda has proved effective in Russia itself, it has been partially neutralized in Crimea by access to Ukrainian channels. The Kremlin, which understands better than most the importance of the information war, has now clearly decided that Crimea must be cut off from the rest of Ukraine and deprived access to Ukrainian information. This act of censorship should be a stark lesson to anyone who still entertains any doubts over who the fascists in this confrontation really are."

[Faux Pas]

 Well I agree that from V. Putin’s perspective it is mostly about complete and unfettered access to that port…not much to do with all the other cheery things…  But those points I was making were in regards to the hypothetical regarding Cuba.  We simply wouldn’t have any cover to invade (if that matters)…in this case Putin does have that cover and a people that it appears would be happy to give him those ports in exchange for being a part of the Russian Federation (or at least out from under western Ukraine’s thumb) Putin has history, and people on his side and I think that counts for a lot. 
 
I still see this playing out as a win-win-win…the greater part of Ukraine moves closer to the Europeans, without having to contend with a peninsula full of malcontents…Russia gets their coveted ports….Crimea goes where it wants to. The USA has a very minor role in this (get Ukraine the best deal it can).  Our over involvement can turn this into a bad scene. Of course I’m one guy with a perspective…I wouldn't claim to be correct about everything.    I respect the logic behind your perspective, so what do you think?


Fathertime!

He had complete unfettered access to Crimea already, without invading. There is no win-win-win. Someone/something loses. For Putin, it's about his will being enforced. He cares not about Ukraine as long as his foot remains on the throat and he cares even less what the West thinks about it or him. This presence is for nothing else than to insure Ukraine installs a government that is subservient/slave to him 1st, Russia 2nd and that all Ukraine bends to his will. For him to win, everyone else has to lose.

He's bent on insuring the next Ukrainian government/president serves him just as Yankovich did. Maiden threatened that. He'd leave in a heartbeat when Ukrainians have no say in their government. The status quo must be maintained.

[jone]

Should Crimea remain in Ukraine and Russia get sent home with tail between legs, Putin would lose control of his own government within a year.  The stakes are now too high for him.  He has bet all of his chips on Red.  To me, it looks like the ball is hovering over a black number and a black day for Vladimir Vladimirovich.

[CanadaMan]

He's bent on insuring the next Ukrainian government/president serves him just as Yankovich did. Maiden threatened that. He'd leave in a heartbeat when Ukrainians have no say in their government. The status quo must be maintained.

You make it seem as if Russians have no say in their government. 

[lordtiberius]

You make it seem as if Russians have no say in their government. 

[dogspot]

Should Crimea remain in Ukraine and Russia get sent home with tail between legs, Putin would lose control of his own government within a year.  The stakes are now too high for him.  He has bet all of his chips on Red.  To me, it looks like the ball is hovering over a black number and a black day for Vladimir Vladimirovich.

There is no way this happens. Here is (yet another) enlightening article:

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/06/the_frontlines_on_russia_homefront_putin_ukraine

[fathertime]

He had complete unfettered access to Crimea already, without invading. There is no win-win-win. Someone/something loses. For Putin, it's about his will being enforced. He cares not about Ukraine as long as his foot remains on the throat and he cares even less what the West thinks about it or him. This presence is for nothing else than to insure Ukraine installs a government that is subservient/slave to him 1st, Russia 2nd and that all Ukraine bends to his will. For him to win, everyone else has to lose.

He's bent on insuring the next Ukrainian government/president serves him just as Yankovich did. Maiden threatened that. He'd leave in a heartbeat when Ukrainians have no say in their government. The status quo must be maintained.

That is an interesting perspective.   I've attempted to put myself in Putin's shoes,(not his soul) and I don't see things the same as a lot of the posters here on this issue.  I accept that it might be ignorance on my part, but that is just not how I'm reading the whole thing.  We will see which direction this goes soon enough.

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

Should Crimea remain in Ukraine and Russia get sent home with tail between legs, Putin would lose control of his own government within a year.  The stakes are now too high for him.  He has bet all of his chips on Red.  To me, it looks like the ball is hovering over a black number and a black day for Vladimir Vladimirovich.

agree:

http://russianreport.wordpress.com/2014/03/03/vladimir-putin-cannot-afford-to-fail/

Where is Mendeleyev?

[southernX]

having been to crimea & spent time there it is a beautifull part of ukraine , all people where friendly ,it is a very peacfull place with little to no signs of public disorder or unrest

what seems to be happeneing since feb 18 is the propoganda machine and activists have deliberatly set about destabilising the population there and across much of ukraine

the pro russian ethnic  population has been agitated into believing they need to be saved by russia or russian loyalists, ,

next chess move is armed gunmen take over their gov buildings etc etc ,
suddenly all the gov politicians vote in the new man aksenov as leader , a guy[party ] who in the last election got just 4 %of the vote ??  he was elected under the barrel of a a military gun , nothing less,
now he and his party with putins direction are calling the shots to break crimea away from ukraine ,
funny how we havent seen to much of the real peoples views, now they  are rushing through a referendum illegally on march 16th

the local peoples now are only getting russian tv, and communication mainly , media propoganda has flooded them , fear  takes over
IF there was a free election AND it was  independently  monitered , we would i believe see a close result , but still favouring most wishing to stay with ukraine ,

however this wont happen , crimea and its people will be russian soon , no matter what imho ,
pity is in a short while when its too late they will realise they have been conned out of their true freedom they enjoy now ,

we wont be going back there any time soon ,
as much as i like russia , this is just wrong and very dangerous , it needs to be viewed as an ongoing act of takeover steps  imho , maybe not this month , but putins next step will come along soon enough

SX

[JayH]

Below are some conditions imposed by IMF for loans. It can only be a very hard sell of reality for Ukrainians to accept and understand all this.It is so easy for the irresposible to attack the government-it would have to be a miracle to win having to sell these conditions to the electorate.
It does highlight why this new government direction must be given the chance right this ship and see the results-- one certainty is that if Ukrainians elect a government on this platform we can be in no doubt how much they want to turn to western values and get acceptability to the west.




today at 5:51 pm
I understand - now Crimea most relevant, but unless we have fought for it?? I just what that deja vu! while experiencing all over the Crimea opozitsii "simplifies" all life throughout Ukraine! Yatsenuk agreed to onerous conditions of the IMF Ukraine will fulfill all the conditions of the International Monetary Fund (IMF) for a loan, the Prime Minister said Yatsenyuk. "This government will fulfill all the requirements of the IMF for the simple reason that we have no other choice, "- he said at a meeting with the European Business Association in Kyiv. Yatsenyuk noted that this applies both to social sector reforms and raising tariffs. 1. Raise the retirement age - two years for men, three - for women. Eliminate the right to early retirement and consider the principle of the year for two hazardous enterprises. 2. Eliminate the institution of special retirement benefits, which are allocated to scientists, government officials, managers of state enterprises. Restrict working pensioners. Set retirement age army officers in 60 years. 3. Raise the price of gas for municipal enterprises by 50%, twice for private consumers. Increase the cost of electricity by 40%. Allow pricing utilities. Prevent a rise in prices due to increase of gas prices. Increase the excise on petrol by 60 euros. 4. Cancel benefits and raise taxes on transportation by 50%. Not to raise the living wage, balancing the social situation from point subsidies. 5. Privatize all mines and abolish all subsidies. Repeal benefits for municipal utilities, transportation and other things. Cancel state support childbirth free meals and textbooks. 6. Limit the practice of simplified taxation. Abolish VAT exemptions in the countryside. Oblige pharmacies and pharmacists to pay VAT. 7. Lift the moratorium on sale of agricultural land. Cancel subsidies to producers of pork and chicken. 8. Reduce the size of ministries to 14. Leave only one vice-premier. Cancel the post of Minister of the Cabinet. Eliminate six ministries. Subdue all public authorities ministries. Tax Administration of Customs, the State Property Fund should enter the ministry of finance. 9. Limit excessive salaries of public officials. 10. Unemployment benefits should be assessed only after a minimum period of six months of work. Sick pay at 70% of salary, but not below the subsistence level. Sick pay starting from the third day of illness. # Ukraine # Yatsenuk # IMF

Some more background-
 http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/us-ukraine-crisis-usa-imf-idUSBREA231QE20140304
http://rt.com/op-edge/ukraine-people-imf-austerity-864/
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/04/ukraine-crisis-usa-imf-idUSL1N0M11ST20140304

[Belvis]

The stakes are now too high for him. 

The stakes are high indeed, and located far away from Europe. Global game is going on.
China begins to seek allies: http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/846263.shtml#.Uxl7Hts4zQF

Russia is the comprehensive strategic partner that China can most rely on. In the next two or three decades, no country will be able to replace Russia.

Therefore, China should offer support to Russia. Diplomatically, China can stick to its neutral policy but slightly favor Russia, which can be accepted by many countries and will pave the way for China to play a mediating role.

Meanwhile, China's public opinion can condemn the West's interference in the Ukraine crisis. The world should see Russia's resistance as the dissatisfaction of many countries toward Western powers.

We would like to see the West and Russia compromise. But if the West really sanctions Russia, Chinese society should provide more assistance to Russia, especially economic help. The West has underestimated Moscow's endurance.

Russia's resistance against the West has global significance. Supporting Russia consolidates China's major strategy. As long as this strategy is solid, China's bilateral relations with other countries will not become troubled.

We shouldn't disappoint Russia when it finds itself in a time of need. China should become a reliable strategic partner. This way, we will make more friends.

[GQBlues]

Thoughts and Notables:


1. I hope Obama would just quit parroting a stupid declaration that any Crimean referendum aligning it with Russia is both illegitimate and a violation of Ukraine's Constitution. Someone needs to tell our ignorant community organizer that ousting an elected president IS against Ukraine's Constitution and all ensuing seizure of power and establishment of an unelected governing body is illegitimate. He, along with the benevolent masters of EU, are dealing with an illegitimate and unconstitutional government in Kyiv. Obama is a DC clown with absolutely no freakin' idea what to do. That's what you get when you have a community organizer in charge of global responsibilities.

At this present time, there are no legitimacy, lawful adherence to Ukraine's Constitution, or legal activity going on anywhere in that country today.

Putin have more legitimacy in Crimea than do the EU and US have in Kyiv.

2. Both the EU and sidekick USA knew that meeting and urging Ukraine to join the EU last November without involving Russia in the discussion is both stupid and disastrous knowing full well President Yanukovich is stoutly pro-Russian. Putin had more than 4 months of pulled planning against the ill-advised 'revolt' perpetuated by the western lords of jackasses. These idiots had not only put the citizens of Ukraine in grave danger today, but had also stupidly implicated their respective countries and its citizenry to undue clear and present danger.

3. It is utterly moronic for anyone to believe the EU will march head-on with any type of economic sanction against a country that provides them life sustaining resource. Let EU deal with a European matter - alone - for a freaking change. Let them realize Russia is NOT Libya. Let them send their bomber planes in Ukraine like they did in Libya and see what happens.

Let these self-serving, indignant, self-righteous colonizers finally understand exactly what 'No Blood for Oil (gas)' really means. Europe, notable France and Germany, sold us out in Iraq for a couple of billion dollars causing thousands of American, British, and Iraqi folks to die.

Send the French if they aren't still too busy spitting upon the Normandy graves. Let them send criminal Chirac to preside over Kyiv.

Repeat. This is NOT a US affair. This is a European affair.

4. Ukrainians need to understand there's absolutely NO benefit in joining the EU. Ask Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Italy and Greece. See how well they're doing. Follow the way of Norway and Switzerland if they must.

[The Natural]

Wow GQBlues, after all that we've been through together, you go ahead and do something like this and....... totally redeem yourself 

[Gylden]

Belvis,
What is interesting regarding the link you posted, there is no reference to who the author of the article is.

GQ,
If we follow the logic back some years I guess that would mean the US is still a colony of England then, no?

[Faux Pas]

That is an interesting perspective.   I've attempted to put myself in Putin's shoes,(not his soul) and I don't see things the same as a lot of the posters here on this issue.  I accept that it might be ignorance on my part, but that is just not how I'm reading the whole thing.  We will see which direction this goes soon enough.

Fathertime!

I can actually agree with the hodgepodge of opinions here but, at the end of the day the dilemma and the answer to it is pretty simplistic. The dilemma is, Putin wants Ukraine to answer to him. Unlikely he will back down from this point/demand and withdraw on his own. The answer is, to let him have it or drive him out. I don't see anyone winning in that scenario unless Ukraine and the West back off and let him have it. Then the only winner in Putin. The alternative is that nobody wins.

[jone]

The iteration of the Constitution of Ukraine was based on various different readings.  It is permissible for the Rada to remove from office the sitting President of Ukraine and call for new elections...... but herein lies the problem:

That operational permission was based on the 2004 Constitution.  Which is why one of the first moves was to re-institute the 2004 version.  The latter version did not allow for anyone to depose the President.  That is one of the key issues that Ukrainians were fighting:  Greed and corruption.

Under the law, the current Ukrainian Rada is now correct.  And keep in mind that the Rada went through three votes of 'no confidence', surviving them, before the Party of Regions flipped on Yanukovych.  That is somewhat dissimilar to the foregone plebiscite which is now endorsed by the Crimean parliament which asks whether Crimea wants to join Russia or wants to become independent.  Current Ukrainian residents are not allowed to vote whether they want to remain a part of Ukraine.  See the ballot listed in the Kyiv Post. 

I could care less about the meanderings by the US or by Europe.  I refuse to join the idea of Eastern Europeans as members of a new Cold War.  But I am saying, again, that even if Russia annexes Crimea at the point of a sword, things are not looking good for Vladimir Vladimirovich.  The haste with which this all came together reminds me, quite honestly, of stabbing your best friend in the back because he owes you $50.00 and smells like the 1991 Coup that deposed Gorbachev.  The repercussions of having a government in Kyiv that hates Russia's intervention will be a continuing thorn in Putin's side. 

Just out of curiosity, does anyone remember where Gorbachev was when they ousted him in the Coup?  Well, he was vacationing in the Crimea, of course.

[The Natural]

Off topic, but my MIL was just now talking to her other daughter in Moscow and her husband in the background. Now, I don't speak any Russian and they not much English (but I'm pretty surprised how much English and Norwegian my MIL has picked up over the past months she's been here), but the daughter said "I love Putin" and her husband said "Moscow never sleeps", hehe. By  the way, they're Crimeans by birth.

[Belvis]

Belvis,
What is interesting regarding the link you posted, there is no reference to who the author of the article is.

It's editoral article. The Global Times  is  a camouflaged organ of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China focusing on international issues.

[Muzh]

That is an interesting perspective.   I've attempted to put myself in Putin's shoes,(not his soul) and I don't see things the same as a lot of the posters here on this issue.  I accept that it might be ignorance on my part, but that is just not how I'm reading the whole thing.  We will see which direction this goes soon enough.

Fathertime!

So how do you read a head of state questioning the 'sense of reality' of another head of state very publicly?
 
Just another member of a forum ranting off her mouth?
 
Seriously, what is that you see when wearing his shoes?