The Propaganda War

[whynotme]

Ranetka, take back all your agents, toughs, colonels, lieutenants, subordinates, guns, grenades, explosives, ammunition, rifles and all other s* (pardon for my language) you are forwarding into Ukraine and you will see how fast any chances for any Civil War evaporate. Understand simple thing: you are the ones who trying to start Civil War in Ukraine in order to slice a piece of it. You can keep finding excuses as many as you wish but it doesn't mean your hands get cleaner.

I bet Ranetka has no power to do that. And don't worry, her hands are clean enouth. The main customer of recent events in Ukraine is USA, so send your petition there.

[Faux Pas]

The Cuban missile crisis wasn't too long ago FP. We fired at those ships in international waters, too you know. They had the right to bring whatever it is they wanted to bring to Cuba.

Yes and no. The U.S. did fire on Soviet ships warning shots after being informed that they would be fired upon if they attempted to break the naval blockade of Cuba. Actually, they were lucky they were not sunk.

No, the USSR didn't have a right to bring anything into Cuba they pleased. The cold war was real and Soviet nuclear warheads were not going to be permitted. The U.S. would have invaded Cuba and went to war with Russia to halt it. Kennedy made that clear. The Soviets denied the missiles existed.

Steady deployment of land, air and naval personnel have one objective in mind this time only. Even during 'peace time' this could be seen as an act of provocation at best, but in a crisis that obviously involve European interest is a whole 'nother bean altogether, IMO.

Agreed. But, much like any Russian ship in Cuba's ports now are less than 90 miles away from the US and they are not buzzed. There's a good reason for that.

[GQBlues]

Yes and no. The U.S. did fire on Soviet ships warning shots after being informed that they would be fired upon if they attempted to break the naval blockade of Cuba. Actually, they were lucky they were not sunk....

The naval blockage was spotted on international waters, FP. We didn't have the right to block anyone in international waters. Same as you saying we can have anyone and anything on international waters.

...No, the USSR didn't have a right to bring anything into Cuba they pleased. The cold war was real and Soviet nuclear warheads were not going to be permitted. The U.S. would have invaded Cuba and went to war with Russia to halt it. Kennedy made that clear. The Soviets denied the missiles existed. ...

They have as much right to have missiles in Cuba as much as we felt righteous having missiles in Turkey. How this was different is still a mystery to me.

 

...Agreed. But, much like any Russian ship in Cuba's ports now are less than 90 miles away from the US and they are not buzzed. There's a good reason for that.

They weren't buzzed just fired at (soviet ships) LOL.

I digress. We have NO part in this mess and we shouldn't be IN this mess. Let the French handle this crap with Ukraine since they'll be the one freezing their butts off come winter time.

[Faux Pas]

The naval blockage was spotted on international waters, FP. We didn't have the right to block anyone in international waters. Same as you saying we can have anyone and anything on international waters.

They have as much right to have missiles in Cuba as much as we felt righteous having missiles in Turkey. How this was different is still a mystery to me.

 


They weren't buzzed just fired at (soviet ships) LOL.

I digress. We have NO part in this mess and we shouldn't be IN this mess. Let the French handle this crap with Ukraine since they'll be the one freezing their butts off come winter time.

I don't necessarily disagree with your position on the whole situation but, I have a bit of an issue with your position that a US ship has no right to be there. There's Russian ships and subs 25 miles off the Eastern seaboard with regularity or constantly. They could be deemed a threat but, they are not. Your use of the Cuban Missile crisis as a defense doesn't cut the muster IMHO.

I am of an isolationist POV politically and foreign policy. Anything short of genocide, we need to keep our noses out. That goes for everything, military intervention, financial aid, humanitarian aid, everything. Letting the world deal with their problems and us deal with ours at home 

[Ranetka]

Ranetka, take back all your agents, toughs, colonels, lieutenants, subordinates, guns, grenades, explosives, ammunition, rifles and all other s* (pardon for my language) you are forwarding into Ukraine and you will see how fast any chances for any Civil War evaporate. Understand simple thing: you are the ones who trying to start Civil War in Ukraine in order to slice a piece of it. You can keep finding excuses as many as you wish but it doesn't mean your hands get cleaner.

I am not aware of any IDENTIFIED Russian army colonels or agents. What is identified is a CIA chief visit.
 Last thing I read on BBc website is Ukrainian police refused to fight activists. Why is that do you think?
Last time I came to Ukraine they checked I did not have any weapons, has something changed?

I do not think even Putin can stop Limonov's guys to fight where they want to, I can not help either, sorry.

Do you think Russia has not got enough territory already? What on earth for does Russia need bankrupt unstable state which on top owes Russia a lot of money?
Who do you think more interested in safe and prosperous Ukraine, Russia who is your neighbour and trade
partner or US for whom you are just one more undeveloped corrupt state like Libiya or Siriya?
You live in the UK, how much people here want Ukraine to be in EU? (you know they don't at all, do they?)

[fathertime]

Yes and no. The U.S. did fire on Soviet ships warning shots after being informed that they would be fired upon if they attempted to break the naval blockade of Cuba. Actually, they were lucky they were not sunk.

No, the USSR didn't have a right to bring anything into Cuba they pleased. The cold war was real and Soviet nuclear warheads were not going to be permitted. The U.S. would have invaded Cuba and went to war with Russia to halt it.

Hey FP, Cuba was in OUR backyard and I think we probably would have went to war over it.  Russia decided it wasn't the right place or time, or worth the cost.  In addition the secret agreement to remove the Nuclear missiles in Turkey were to be removed so they got what they wanted and so did we...a win/win. 

  Now this current situation is in RUSSIA'S backyard, if we start actively participating, I think Russia will go to war and pull out all the stops.  I don't think we should be putting ourselves in this situation.  I don't believe the American people are going to be very supportive if we do.

I am of an isolationist POV politically and foreign policy. Anything short of genocide, we need to keep our noses out. That goes for everything, military intervention, financial aid, humanitarian aid, everything. Letting the world deal with their problems and us deal with ours at home 

I think we can all agree that the ship has a RIGHT to be there...but that doesn't make it a good move, given the circumstances.  I mean one could say, The Soviet Union had a RIGHT to put missiles in Cuba, but it wasn't going to happen.  I know the situations aren't analogous but I can see unmistakable parallels.     

Fathertime!   

[GQBlues]

I don't necessarily disagree with your position on the whole situation but, I have a bit of an issue with your position that a US ship has no right to be there. There's Russian ships and subs 25 miles off the Eastern seaboard with regularity or constantly. They could be deemed a threat but, they are not. Your use of the Cuban Missile crisis as a defense doesn't cut the muster IMHO....

Hah! That's benign compared to the excessive use of 'Hitlerism' thus far in these discussions.

...I am of an isolationist POV politically and foreign policy. Anything short of genocide, we need to keep our noses out. That goes for everything, military intervention, financial aid, humanitarian aid, everything. Letting the world deal with their problems and us deal with ours at home 

...is all I'm saying. I'm just sick and tired of hearing how much of a war-mongering bastards we are to the point of having the graves of our fallen soldiers in Normandy spat at and desecrated not too long ago, man. This after selling us out for a few measly millions of dollars in Iraq. Like Nuland said, f@ck the EU.

[Gator]

The Cuban Missile Crisis.  Many years after the crisis was averted, some revelations came to light.  For example, Castro was ready to launch the Soviet missiles if America invaded Cuba even knowing that Cuba would be totally destroyed.

The most interesting revelation was the action by  a Soviet submarine commander named Vasili Arkhipov.  He alone prevented a nuclear war when the American Navy surrounded a Soviet sub.   So everyone, next time you make a toast with vodka, be sure to pay respect to Vasili.   Some of us would not be alive today if not for him. 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/27/vasili-arkhipov-stopped-nuclear-war

[BillyB]

Besides Obama calling Putin, he's made calls to the leaders of major European nations to get ready to get tough on Russia and hit the Russian economy, including in the mining, finance and energy sectors, if Moscow does not change course. Although Europe's economy is fragile, they may be on board with Obama's requests. That will be determined after talks between Ukraine, Russia, EU, and America this Thursday. Don't expect protestor crackdowns or war before that.


Besides the CIA boss visiting Ukraine and Vice President Biden's scheduled visit, today Treasury Secretary Jack Lew signed a deal with Ukrainian Finance Minister Oleksandr Shlapak for a one billion dollar loan guaranteed. America is becoming more active in helping Ukraine with high level talks and support, not just promises of food. Now that America's money is invested in Ukraine, I don't think Obama is going to let Russia take it so easily.


http://news.yahoo.com/cia-chief-visited-kiev-weekend-white-house-174243734.html

[GQBlues]

...
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/27/vasili-arkhipov-stopped-nuclear-war

I've read about Vasya's story before, as was Yeltsin's. Certainly neither should ever be taken lightly. But there's a lone sentence in the article I didn't know or was aware of...

This one...

"....On one occasion, Jimmy Carter, the sanest of US presidents, left nuclear launch codes in his suit when it was sent to the dry cleaners...."

LOL. How appropriate!

[missAmeno]

I am not aware of any IDENTIFIED Russian army colonels or agents.

http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_sbu-perehvatila-razgovor-separatistov-s-rossijskim-rukovodstvom/552530
http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_v-slavyanske-obnaruzhili-rossijskij-specnaz-io/552309
http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-strategy-in-eastern-ukraine-will-be-very-hard-to-stop-2014-4
http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-spetsnaz-arrested-ukraine
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/amid-new-violence-in-ukraine-western-and-russian-diplomats-escalate-rhetoric/498036.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/13/ukraine-unrest-spreads/7679125/

You expecting listed name, surname and date of birth?

Do you think Russia has not got enough territory already? What on earth for does Russia need bankrupt unstable state which on top owes Russia a lot of money?

Is the only ones are Russians who do not know that Putin is trying to build Greater Russia aka SSSR?

[Ranetka]

http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_sbu-perehvatila-razgovor-separatistov-s-rossijskim-rukovodstvom/552530
http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_v-slavyanske-obnaruzhili-rossijskij-specnaz-io/552309
http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-strategy-in-eastern-ukraine-will-be-very-hard-to-stop-2014-4
http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-spetsnaz-arrested-ukraine
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/amid-new-violence-in-ukraine-western-and-russian-diplomats-escalate-rhetoric/498036.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/13/ukraine-unrest-spreads/7679125/

You expecting listed name, surname and date of birth?

Is the only ones are Russians who do not know that Putin is trying to build Greater Russia aka SSSR?

Yes, I expect evidence of Russian officials involved, similar to Nuland tape. What I hear is a conversation of two unidentified men, one talks with Ukrainian accent. I have no doubt, by the way, there are Russians in these groups, I think half of Limonov party, for example. So what? 

[Belvis]

The best way to determine the identity of the protestors is for the Ukrainian security services to encircle one of these buildings, storm it and and take prisoners.

It was done a few times. Three weeks ago over 100 rioters were arrested in Donetsk, a week ago about 80 protestors were arrested in Kharkov. All turned to be Ukrainians.

SBU (security service of Ukraine) detains on regular base russian "diversants" like this 22 y.o. one, who is claimed to be FSB coordinator of unrests in Nikolaev:

[calmissile]

A couple of interesting links about the propaganda war.

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/paul-roderick-gregory-russian-tv-caught-red-handed-as-same-guy-plays-three-different-people-343235.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/04/14/smoking-guns-shatter-russian-lies-about-no-troops-in-ukraine/

[BillyB]

It's kind of funny to listen to nations deny having agents in Ukraine, a country they claim is bankrupt, worthless, and a drag on their economy if Ukraine aligns with them to get bailed out financially.


American CIA boss entered Ukraine under a different name and passport. How did Russia detect this without having spies in Ukraine? Some people will believe the lies so there's value telling a story to some folks.

[Hammer2722]

A couple of interesting links about the propaganda war.

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/paul-roderick-gregory-russian-tv-caught-red-handed-as-same-guy-plays-three-different-people-343235.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/04/14/smoking-guns-shatter-russian-lies-about-no-troops-in-ukraine/

I'm sure the Putin lovers will come up with a very creative explanation. LOL 

[whynotme]

Fresh videos, not old ones again for many times

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNeKQXOsI0g&feature=youtu.be

this


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNX9cdyCFAA&feature=youtu.be
on last video candidate for president Zarev

Your very creative explanations, please

[calmissile]

That was a hilarious cartoon.
What was the purpose of your posting it?

[Maxx2]

whynotme, most of us don't understand what is being said and happening. Could you explain it for us?

[calmissile]

I bet Ranetka has no power to do that. And don't worry, her hands are clean enouth. The main customer of recent events in Ukraine is USA, so send your petition there.

I hope your university students are not as clueless about world events as their professor is!

[Ranetka]

It's kind of funny to listen to nations deny having agents in Ukraine, a country they claim is bankrupt, worthless, and a drag on their economy if Ukraine aligns with them to get bailed out financially.


American CIA boss entered Ukraine under a different name and passport. How did Russia detect this without having spies in Ukraine? Some people will believe the lies so there's value telling a story to some folks.

Who are the people denying Russians having spies in Ukraine Billy? If Russia does not have spies in a neibourhood country during civil war then some general need to be fired for gross incompetence.
The question is who is responsible for Civil war in Ukraine?  The roots are in Maidan and what Ukraine is having now is a normal result of a paid for revolution. If they are lucky there will be no Syria scenario.

They just can't stop blaming Russia for everything even after 23 years of independence.

[calmissile]

Who are the people denying Russians having spies in Ukraine Billy? If Russia does not have spies in a neibourhood country during civil war then some general need to be fired for gross incompetence.
The question is who is responsible for Civil war in Ukraine?  The roots are in Maidan and what Ukraine is having now is a normal result of a paid for revolution. If they are lucky there will be no Syria scenario.

They just can't stop blaming Russia for everything even after 23 years of independence.

Are you this clueless?  Russia invaded and annexed Crimea!!!!!

[whynotme]

I hope your university students are not as clueless about world events as their professor is!

My students know history muuuch better illiterate Americans 
Are u the next Barbossa to make personal comments?

[calmissile]

My students know history muuuch better illiterate Americans 
Are u the next Barbossa to make personal comments?

Your constant derogatory comments about my country I take personally.  So yes, I will push back when your comments are based upon untrue Russian propaganda. It is unfortunate that you have been spoon fed Soviet propaganda for so many years that you believe it no matter if it makes common sense or not.  Based upon your posts, we are learning much about the Russian mind and how you have become indoctrinated in Soviet nonsense over the years.  It seems to not matter what lies are told, you still believe what the Russian government tells you to believe.  Sad!

Most Westerners can sort the wheat from the chaff, whether it is Western propaganda or Russian propaganda.  Even when we cannot agree on any action that can or should not be taken, at least we can sort bullshit from facts.  I now understand more about the cold war than earlier.  There was no communication with ordinary Russians during the cold war because you lived in a closed society.  The news was only what the Kremlin allowed to be released.  Fortunately, the internet has somewhat overcome the ability of the Kremlin to totally control the news within Russian.  Hopefully the younger Russians will become more enlightened to the truths that were previously and currently controlled by the state.  As far as older people indoctrinated in the Soviet mentality, perhaps the young will help overcome it.

For someone that is planning to come to the USA, I am surprised that given your attitude and hatred for the USA, you would lower yourself to come to our fine country?  What's that all about?

In spite of your attitude toward the USA, you might want to use some common sense and ask yourself why tens or hundreds of thousands of people want to immigrate to the USA?  Many, waiting for years to get immigration approval and some risking their lives to get her illegally.  Can you say the same about Russia?  Are all these people just brainwashed idiots that are fools standing in line for something worse than Russia?  Think about it.

You were asked a couple of questions about the video of the tank that you have not answered.  Can you grant us the courtesy of answering them?

[Hammer2722]

Your constant derogatory comments about my country I take personally.  So yes, I will push back when your comments are based upon untrue Russian propaganda. It is unfortunate that you have been spoon fed Soviet propaganda for so many years that you believe it no matter if it makes common sense or not.  Based upon your posts, we are learning much about the Russian mind and how you have become indoctrinated in Soviet nonsense over the years.  It seems to not matter what lies are told, you still believe what the Russian government tells you to believe.  Sad!

Most Westerners can sort the wheat from the chaff, whether it is Western propaganda or Russian propaganda.  Even when we cannot agree on any action that can or should not be taken, at least we can sort bullshit from facts.  I now understand more about the cold war than earlier.  There was no communication with ordinary Russians during the cold war because you lived in a closed society.  The news was only what the Kremlin allowed to be released.  Fortunately, the internet has somewhat overcome the ability of the Kremlin to totally control the news within Russian.  Hopefully the younger Russians will become more enlightened to the truths that were previously and currently controlled by the state.  As far as older people indoctrinated in the Soviet mentality, perhaps the young will help overcome it.

For someone that is planning to come to the USA, I am surprised that given your attitude and hatred for the USA, you would lower yourself to come to our fine country?  What's that all about?

In spite of your attitude toward the USA, you might want to use some common sense and ask yourself why tens or hundreds of thousands of people want to immigrate to the USA?  Many, waiting for years to get immigration approval and some risking their lives to get her illegally.  Can you say the same about Russia?  Are all these people just brainwashed idiots that are fools standing in line for something worse than Russia?  Think about it.

You were asked a couple of questions about the video of the tank that you have not answered.  Can you grant us the courtesy of answering them?