The Propaganda War

[Boethius]

I knew that  laws are above all for a honourable lawer, people is just a subject for law application. However Crimeans did not agree on that proposition. May be because they have not large enough mob  of  lawers there.

No, Belvis, Russia either is part of the international community or it is not.  That is the issue.  Should Canada just go take Hans Island?  Should the UK invade Lough Foyle, since it can?  That is the issue.

[Boethius]

Brutal force lol. Not a single shot was fired . It was a brutal referendum and thuggish celebrations. How dare Krimeans to join Russia.

Tell that to the families of the Ukrainian soldiers who were killed.
 
I am not arguing about the result.   Only the method.  And that method means no international recognition.

[Boethius]

Apparently the Crimeans disagree and the only thing keeping Ukraine from implementing a final solution to Crimeans and their notions of self determination is the Russian military.

Right.  Because in the 20 odd years of Ukrainian independence, Crimeans were sent to gas chambers by Ukrainian authorities.
 
 

[mendeleyev]

Steamer:

and the only thing keeping Ukraine from implementing a final solution to Crimeans and their notions of self determination is the Russian military.

Dear Lord, Steamer. In all due respect, that is bullshit. Where did you come up with such an idea? Crimea was constitutionally autonomous already, and ethnic Russians were never under any threat. Residents, although independent, lived largely on subsidies from Kyiv.

If Russia's annexation was so innocent, why the need to send in unmarked troops, oust the Crimean parliament, sack the Crimean prime minister (an ethnic Russian), and force a referrend um that gave only two choices, neither of which included remaining as part of Ukraine.

[Gator]

Brutal force lol. Not a single shot was fired . It was a brutal referendum and thuggish celebrations. How dare Krimeans to join Russia.

Good to see you posting again.

Although not many shots were fired, Ukraine withdrew under guns pointed at them by Russians.   The Ukrainian military could not have defended Crimea from the invading green men.    It would have been a disaster if they challenged Russia. 

The manner in which Putin handled this is in violation of international law.  Civilized countries sit down at a negotiating table and work it out.  Instead, Putin does what he wants to do.  You may disagree, yet I assure you his style isolates Russia and damages Russia over the long term.   



Was the issue to Crimean citizens about freedom to speak Russian and greater autocracy, or was it about taking bribes from a wealthier country?   One RWD member from Crimea bragged about her salary increasing 4x after Russia's annexation.    They have the extra money for now, yet the fate for Crimea is another Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (compare the economy of the two Cyprus republics)

I recognize that in its 20+ years of independence, Ukraine failed to develop its economy.  Observers will say that this failure was because of a) deep-seated  corruption and b) the Russian stranglehold on Ukraine.  With Maidan , the people of Ukraine finally started a new journey, whereby ridding themselves of the Russian yoke Ukraine could progress its economy as done in former Soviet satellite countries.  That is, only if Russia would stop interfering with Ukraine.  Putin can not allow that to happen, can he!

[sleepycat]

Steamer:
Dear Lord, Steamer. In all due respect, that is bullshit. Where did you come up with such an idea?

From his putinist wife maybe?

[Boethius]

I recognize that in its 20+ years of independence, Ukraine failed to develop its economy.  Observers will say that this failure was because of a) deep-seated  corruption and b) the Russian stranglehold on Ukraine.  With Maidan , the people of Ukraine finally started a new journey, whereby ridding themselves of the Russian yoke Ukraine could progress its economy as done in former Soviet satellite countries.  That is, only if Russia would stop interfering with Ukraine.  Putin can not allow that to happen, can he!

I don't think Ukraine's failure as a state is because of the Russian stranglehold on Ukraine.  It is because of corruption and the stranglehold Ukrainian oligarchs have on the political system.  That has not yet changed.

[Steamer]

From his putinist wife maybe?

Just to clue you in my wife is half Russian, half Ukraine and doesn't particularly like Putin but I do.

[jone]

Just to clue you in my wife is half Russian, half Ukraine and doesn't particularly like Putin but I do.

Steamer; just curious.  What makes you like Putin so much?

[Hammer2722]

Steamer; just curious.  What makes you like Putin so much?

Apparently, he's paying well for now....

[Steamer]

Steamer; just curious.  What makes you like Putin so much?

He reminds me of Ronald Reagan in a lot of ways. I believe him to be a patriot that is trying to improve his country and its military just like Reagan had to do. He doesn't go for any of this PC crap that the West just loves. He's upfront and will do what he thinks is necessary.


On the downside he hasn't diversified the economy. Even though things have improved 'a bit' it's not good enough. I believe it's because the economy is controlled by a handful of oligarchs. I would love to see him order these guys to diversify their operations for the good of the country and then have a yearly review. Top performing oligarch gets a bonus and a parade, bottom performing oligarch gets a bullet in the head and his business turned over to someone more capable. I think the economy would improve quickly.

[Hammer2722]

He reminds me of Ronald Reagan in a lot of ways. I believe him to be a patriot that is trying to improve his country and its military just like Reagan had to do. He doesn't go for any of this PC crap that the West just loves. He's upfront and will do what he thinks is necessary.

Never mind the fact that he has made over 40 Billion stealing from the people. Reagan indeed!!! 

[mendeleyev]

Steamer, you do realize that those are his Oligarchs, right?

His own net worth rivals some of those same players, although for the life of me I cannot recall exactly which businesses he started, how effectively he ran them, and how many people he employed while garnering all that fantastic wealth. Oh, wait. I forgot: he never started a business, never ran one, and the only people he employs work in his government.

Stalin made massive advances in Russian manufacturing, and built up his military, too.

Putin has been on the government payroll all his life, yet he is a multimillionaire. How does that compare to Ronald Reagan?

[Steamer]

Never mind the fact that he has made over 40 Billion stealing from the people. Reagan indeed!!! 

Reagan indeed! After he cut the top tax brackets how much do you figure was stolen from the American population? A lot more than $40B. Reagan didn't keep it himself but that was quite a windfall for all the rich folk. Giggle about that while your state is raising your taxes because the fed is reducing funding.

[Hammer2722]

Reagan indeed! After he cut the top tax brackets how much do you figure was stolen from the American population? A lot more than $40B. Reagan didn't keep it himself but that was quite a windfall for all the rich folk. Giggle about that while your state is raising your taxes because the fed is reducing funding.

I absolutely love how you think that Reagan stole soo much from us yet you put Putin up on a pedestal. You are too hilarious for me dude. Let's hear some more of your pearls of wisdom. I'm enjoying the comedy. 
 

[Steamer]

Steamer, you do realize that those are his Oligarchs, right?

His own net worth rivals some of those same players, although for the life of me I cannot recall exactly which businesses he started, how effectively he ran them, and how many people he employed while garnering all that fantastic wealth. Oh, wait. I forgot: he never started a business, never ran one, and the only people he employs work in his government.

Stalin made massive advances in Russian manufacturing, and built up his military, too.

Putin has been on the government payroll all his life, yet he is a multimillionaire. How does that compare to Ronald Reagan?

Yes and what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I was asked why I liked Putin and I answered. The majority of Reagan's life was spent in govt. also and he died a multi millionaire. I don't think it came from a couple of 'Bedtime for Bonzo' movies.

[Steamer]

I absolutely love how you think that Reagan stole soo much from us yet you put Putin up on a pedestal. You are too hilarious for me dude. Let's hear some more of your pearls of wisdom. I'm enjoying the comedy. 

No redistributed, from the bottom up. Put Putin on a pedestal? Really? I said I like the guy. Why does everything go to extremes with you guys?

[Boethius]

Yes and what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I was asked why I liked Putin and I answered. The majority of Reagan's life was spent in govt. also and he died a multi millionaire. I don't think it came from a couple of 'Bedtime for Bonzo' movies.

No. it did not.  It came from the largesse of Lew Wasserman and Jules Styne, before Reagan became governor of California.

[Boethius]

He reminds me of Ronald Reagan in a lot of ways. I believe him to be a patriot that is trying to improve his country and its military just like Reagan had to do. He doesn't go for any of this PC crap that the West just loves. He's upfront and will do what he thinks is necessary.


On the downside he hasn't diversified the economy. Even though things have improved 'a bit' it's not good enough. I believe it's because the economy is controlled by a handful of oligarchs. I would love to see him order these guys to diversify their operations for the good of the country and then have a yearly review. Top performing oligarch gets a bonus and a parade, bottom performing oligarch gets a bullet in the head and his business turned over to someone more capable. I think the economy would improve quickly.

He is not upfront, as the Europeans have learned over the lies told during the entire Ukrainian crisis.  Heck, he has even admitted he lied about troops in Crimea.  So, no, he is not "upfront".   You have fallen for propaganda.


Oligarchs control the Russian economy only to the degree the Russian government allows them to.  Cross them, and your fortune is at risk.  Examine the lives of some oligarchs who have done so.  But, why should oligarchs control an economy at all?  Particularly in the case of post Soviet oligarchs, all of whom are former nomenklatura, and almost none of them created that wealth.  Where is the Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, or Steve Jobs among the Russian elites?  Their wealthy stole the wealth of their countries, and are allowed to retain it with state complicity.

[Larry1]

The majority of Reagan's life was spent in govt. also and he died a multi millionaire. I don't think it came from a couple of 'Bedtime for Bonzo' movies.

1. Reagan didn't spend even close to the majority of his life in government. His first government position was governor of California, from 1967-1975. After this he ran in the Republican presidential primaries in 1976. He lost the race for the nomination to incumbent President Gerald Ford. He ran again in 1980 and was elected president. He served for 8 years. So that makes a total of 16 years in government.

2. Reagan appeared in a great many more than a couple of movies.  He was employed to act in more than 60 films, and later a number of television shows. Then later he hosted General Electric Theater, for which he was paid quite a bit. As part of his GE contract he spoke at GE facilities across the country.

[Boethius]

My favourite SNL skit about Reagan -


http://screen.yahoo.com/president-reagan-mastermind-000000075.html

[Muzh]

He reminds me of Ronald Reagan in a lot of ways. I believe him to be a patriot that is trying to improve his country and its military just like Reagan had to do. He doesn't go for any of this PC crap that the West just loves. He's upfront and will do what he thinks is necessary.


On the downside he hasn't diversified the economy. Even though things have improved 'a bit' it's not good enough. I believe it's because the economy is controlled by a handful of oligarchs. I would love to see him order these guys to diversify their operations for the good of the country and then have a yearly review. Top performing oligarch gets a bonus and a parade, bottom performing oligarch gets a bullet in the head and his business turned over to someone more capable. I think the economy would improve quickly.

I was wondering when some conservatives here were going to start lusting after "the man," a paragon of conservatism. I know that the fascist in Europe have wet dreams with "the man" but I haven't heard much from the American far-right.


Steamer, you are the first I've heard. Who knows how many closeted American fascists are lurking around?

[Steamer]

He is not upfront, as the Europeans have learned over the lies told during the entire Ukrainian crisis.  Heck, he has even admitted he lied about troops in Crimea.  So, no, he is not "upfront".   You have fallen for propaganda.

BS. I haven't fallen for anything, I just like the man.

[Boethius]

You claimed he is upfront.  He isn't upfront, as he has been caught in several lies.

[Muzh]

BS. I haven't fallen for anything, I just like the man.

What you like the best? His bare chest or his macho prowess?