The Propaganda War

[LiveFromUkraine]

You are right. There is a degree of propaganda, which is presented by various Western governments. So?
It's a ridiculous comparison because of the scale, the size of the infractions. It's like saying some murders in a Chicago neighborhood are comparable to Hitler's exterminations. The enormity of one violation, in contrast to a relatively small violation. The CIA's terrible tortures pale in comparison to the thousands of deaths in Ukraine, at the hands of Putin's devout pawns, who appear to be severely brainwashed by his propaganda. So, it's a question of degree. The West is NOT squeaky clean, but Putin's propaganda machine has lots of blood on its hands.

Are you saying one propaganda is ok compared to another?  You sound like the West has no blood on it's hands.

[Photo Guy]

Lots of countries have blood on their hands.
Call them on it. Shine the spotlight. Focusing
on torturous interrogation techniques is fine.
Comparing it to thousands of deaths in Ukraine
is absurd.

[mendeleyev]

Calm:

Now that Putin has near total control over the media that Russians have access to, it seems unlikely that the ordinary Russian will see the truth about their dictator.

I had an interesting conversation with a member of the loyal opposition yesterday. We spent 3  hours walking and talking along a lake, out of earshot.

He started by asking me how I could be 100% certain in identifying Russian troops in Ukraine. It really is an easy answer once you learn the camouflage issued by each Army. The new Russian design is different from what the Ukrainian Army issues, and the rebels were given the old style Russian outfits. Boots are a dead giveaway, too, as a real rebel generally wears walking shoes or footwear designed for coal mining. One must remember that a real pro-Russian rebel, as opposed to a professional Russian soldier, was a coal miner last week.

Who is driving is also a giveaway, and what they are driving. Last week's coal miners are not issued brand new Russian tanks--those are driven by professionals with the appropriate training. There is also the issue of accents.

So, I told him this and then asked him, "why is such an intelligent people ignorant of these things?" "How are such well-educated folk blinded by propaganda?"

His answer startled me: "They are not blind. They know."

Just days ago the First Channel ran a story about a Donbass kid who as the story goes was captured by Ukrainian soldiers. The report claimed that the Ukrainians chopped off all his fingers, and the report was accompanied by photos of a bandaged hand that appeared to have no fingers.

Of course there was no explanation of why the boy could have his fingers chopped off by the Ukrainian Army, and then be free to show up on Russian television a few days later. "Dear Gawd, are we all this stupid," I asked myself. Neither was there any mention of Ukrainian soldiers being executed by Russian soldiers, which is bragged about by pro-Russian rebels on sites like VK, etc.

"They know and they understand" the guy repeated. But, their longing for Russia's return to a great power with iron firm control over neighbors is greater than any moral concerns. Things like treaties and ceasefires are only as good as they need to give time for Russia to maneuver.

I asked again, "so, they know about Russian troops in Ukraine?"

"Absolutely," was his reply. He went on to explain that until stopped, they will never admit the truth because a lie is okay if it advances the state.

They know.

They understand.

[Photo Guy]

See my new topic. It focuses in on the lie- "No Russian Troops In Ukraine'

'Russian Military In Ukraine'
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=19676.0#new

[LiveFromUkraine]

Lots of countries have blood on their hands.
Call them on it. Shine the spotlight. Focusing
on torturous interrogation techniques is fine.
Comparing it to thousands of deaths in Ukraine
is absurd.

Again, it sounds like you are saying torture isn't as bad because it isn't in the thousands (you really don't know how many have been tortured over the years).  Now that would be absurd if that is what you mean.

[Photo Guy]

I'd say that most people think torture
is wrong. We should do what we can to stop
it. I'd say that most people think Russia's
war on Ukraine is wrong. We should do what
we can to stop it. It's evil. Those who say
There are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine
are either liars or idiots.

[LiveFromUkraine]

There are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine
are either liars or idiots.

Ignorant, yes, but an idiot, maybe not.  I take it you have never believed someone who lied to you.  If you have, then you are as much an idiot as those believing the propaganda.  I honestly don't understand the harsh criticism on those that believe the propaganda.


Everyone has believed something that has turned out to be a lie at some point in their lives.

[Photo Guy]

That's my opinion.
Those who say there are no Russian
soldiers in Ukraine are either idiots or liars.
I'm sorry if that offends you. I'm offended
by the propaganda.

[LiveFromUkraine]

That's my opinion.
Those who say there are no Russian
soldiers in Ukraine are either idiots or liars.
I'm sorry if that offends you. I'm offended
by the propaganda.

You couldn't possibly offend me.  I highly doubt that you are sorry if your opinion offends me.  I suppose that would make you a liar if I am right. 


I just find it ironic that you would call someone else an idiot with such simplistic views.  I can't say I am sorry if my opinion offends you.   

[Photo Guy]

That's clever.

[Faux Pas]

I'd say that most people think torture
is wrong. We should do what we can to stop
it. I'd say that most people think Russia's
war on Ukraine is wrong. We should do what
we can to stop it. It's evil. Those who say
There are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine
are either liars or idiots.

It's just simply, not that simple. You say you hate propaganda yet, you are sucking up the Western media propaganda as fast as they can shovel it to you. I don't see you proclaiming yourself an idiot or a liar? Look and think from the position that everybody is lying to you. Nobody is telling you the truth, only their version of the truth. Is there "more" truth to the Western version than the Russian? Perhaps but even it is not the unvarnished truth.

Russia has the same percentage of idiots as any other industrialized nation on earth. It also has an educated populace. They are not idiots or liars, they live under a different system than you do. They do have an advantage that you don't. Many are smart enough to not believe the propaganda. It doesn't appear that you are.

Do many Russians believe the propaganda? Yup, many do, just like you do the Western version. That doesn't make either of you idiots, just misled

[Photo Guy]

Tell me what you see as Western propaganda?
This should be interesting.

[Faux Pas]

Tell me what you see as Western propaganda?
This should be interesting.

I've no doubt Putin has soldiers in Ukraine, is backing the pro Russian terrorist and there is war in Ukraine. The Western propaganda machines has you convince he's doing it because he's a bully, a dictator and wants to return Russia to it's glory from the Soviet era. Do you believe that?

[Photo Guy]

I'm happy that you stated some truths that go against what Putin has told us, and what we hear from the Russian propaganda machine, from the Kremlin.

When Putin says, "Russian troops in Ukraine. No.", I think he is being deceptive because he knows the world would see Russian involvement there for what it is- a disruption of the new Ukrainian state. I think Putin is motivated by personal revenge. He sees the Revolution of Dignity as a personal affront. He had a close relationship with Yanukovych, who many saw as his puppet. The following events affected Putin. He reacted to them, like a child having a tantrum.
1- Ukrainians wanted closer ties to the EU, through a free trade agreement
2- Ukrainians threw out his puppet, after that puppet turned away from the trade agreement.
3- The Revolution represented a turn towards the EU, and an EU style of government and culture.

Putin reacted to these developments. He took them personally. I don't think he saw the events clearly. Instead, it was all about himself and the degree of 'control' he had
over Russia's sphere of influence. He still sees himself as a person who can control Ukraine, the cradle of Russian culture. Yes, he actually is a bully, and if you'd like, I can give examples of his threats and statements, where he tries to intimidate Poroshenko and others.

It is a fact that he said, ‘The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century.’ I guess one can interpret that in a variety of ways, but most see it as coming from the mind of a KGB agent.

I don't think Putin wants the government in Kyiv to succeed. Yanu is gone, and Poroshenko looks very Western. Russia's military involvement can give the new government in Ukraine lots of problems. I think that's his motivation. Revenge for leaning West and throwing out his friend. He is also motivated by his poll numbers. Nationalism is working for him, and ironically, he's against the nationalism of Ukrainians. If Russia is 'home', Ukrainians can never return there again. Putin has made sure of that.

What do YOU think motivates Putin? I think the idea of 'protecting Russian speakers everywhere' is another lie. The individuals I know in Crimea told me there was not any problem before the annexation... 

[Steamer]

Nope, no western propaganda here.
Revolution of Dignity?
From Obama's mouth to your ears.   

[Boethius]

Please show me where Obama has ever stated what PG has posted.

PG, I don't think Yanukovych was Putin's puppet.  I also don't believe Putin took the events in Ukraine personally.   Nor do I think this is about revenge.  I think, at the end of the day, there was a concern by those in power in Moscow that a Western leaning, successful Ukraine would lead to Russians wanting the same thing.  Realistically, though, that Western leaning Ukraine was probably at least 3 decades away, assuming corruption and the oligarchs were, in fact, tamed.

I don't discount their concern about Ukraine eventually joining NATO were it to solidify relations with the EU, but I don't think that would have occurred.  However, you can't discount that Russian leaders' paranoia may have played into events as they unfolded.

[Steamer]

Please show me where Obama has ever stated what PG has posted.

Please show me what part of PG's butt he pulled all of this mallarkey out of.

[Boethius]

You made the allegation it was from Obama. 

Nope, no western propaganda here. From Obama's mouth to your ears.   

(subsequently edited by you).

Please provide a link in which Obama stated what PG has posted.

[fathertime]

I'm happy that you stated some truths that go against what Putin has told us, and what we hear from the Russian propaganda machine, from the Kremlin.

When Putin says, "Russian troops in Ukraine. No.", I think he is being deceptive because he knows the world would see Russian involvement there for what it is- a disruption of the new Ukrainian state. I think Putin is motivated by personal revenge. He sees the Revolution of Dignity as a personal affront. He had a close relationship with Yanukovych, who many saw as his puppet. The following events affected Putin. He reacted to them, like a child having a tantrum.
1- Ukrainians wanted closer ties to the EU, through a free trade agreement
2- Ukrainians threw out his puppet, after that puppet turned away from the trade agreement.
3- The Revolution represented a turn towards the EU, and an EU style of government and culture.

Putin reacted to these developments. He took them personally. I don't think he saw the events clearly. Instead, it was all about himself and the degree of 'control' he had
over Russia's sphere of influence. He still sees himself as a person who can control Ukraine, the cradle of Russian culture. Yes, he actually is a bully, and if you'd like, I can give examples of his threats and statements, where he tries to intimidate Poroshenko and others.

It is a fact that he said, ‘The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century.’ I guess one can interpret that in a variety of ways, but most see it as coming from the mind of a KGB agent.

I don't think Putin wants the government in Kyiv to succeed. Yanu is gone, and Poroshenko looks very Western. Russia's military involvement can give the new government in Ukraine lots of problems. I think that's his motivation. Revenge for leaning West and throwing out his friend. He is also motivated by his poll numbers. Nationalism is working for him, and ironically, he's against the nationalism of Ukrainians. If Russia is 'home', Ukrainians can never return there again. Putin has made sure of that.

What do YOU think motivates Putin? I think the idea of 'protecting Russian speakers everywhere' is another lie. The individuals I know in Crimea told me there was not any problem before the annexation...

Your propaganda induced analysis doesn't look too good, as even pro-Ukrainians are questioning it, and rightfully so.  Now if we were to go off of your philosophy that would make you either an idiot or a liar.    I don't subscribe to your philosophy though, I think you are deluded on this topic though. 


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

I don't discount their concern about Ukraine eventually joining NATO were it to solidify relations with the EU, but I don't think that would have occurred.  However, you can't discount that Russian leaders' paranoia may have played into events as they unfolded.

I seem to recall you did in the past discount Russia's concern about Ukraine possibly joining NATO.  Maybe they wouldn't have, but the direction they were/are attempting to go could easily make someone (who isn't paranoid) think they MIGHT someday in the future...and that was likely seen as on of the unacceptable risks that has factored into this conflict. 

Fathertime!     

[Faux Pas]

What do YOU think motivates Putin? I think the idea of 'protecting Russian speakers everywhere' is another lie. The individuals I know in Crimea told me there was not any problem before the annexation...

Well I think you've done a lot of assuming and it would appear based on Western propaganda and others op/ed information.

I tend to think it's ALWAYS about the money first. I believe most wars are always about the money. Ukraine has been in massive debt to Russia and they were connected in many ways particularly economically. Generally when you cut everything else away, it's always about the money. How much of it was Ukraine's debt to Russia? Little I would say but a factor. The biggest part is IMHO, Ukraine turning away from Russia and to the EU has the potential to limit or cut off some of Vlad's personal revenue streams. That's likely the only place it get's personal. The Western propaganda has painted a whole 'nother picture of Putin in my mind and most folks are believing it. I don't think them idiots or liars, just misled

[Boethius]

I still discount it.  It's about as realisitc as Saddam's "WMD".

[Faux Pas]

In other words, Ukraine isn't capable of paying it's debts to Russia and turning to the EU would effectively remove him and his cronies from Ukraine with the outing of Yanko. He has personal and professional interests to make Ukraine undesirable to any one with other idea's. It's been pretty effective to date.

[The Natural]

As far as I'm concerned, the west never cared for Ukraine. The US is not into creating Democracy or a good life for Ukrainians, they just use them in a Proxy war against Russia.

The Ukrainians who bought into this Maidan stupidity is now Learning a lesson. Ukraine will never join the EU or NATO. They will be useful idiots until a New crisis somewhere else happens and the world will forget about them. What they will be left With however, is a big debt and oligarchs stealing the rest of their Resources along With their masters, the multinational Companies, sucking the country dry.

Russia should never forget their hate. The idiots who thought they could just get into the EU and be carried through life on a gold plate needs to learn their lesson! Europe has more than enough problems With it's own failuring countries as well as the freeloaders from the Baltics. Handing over billions upon billions to stupid Ukronazis will never be accepted. Leave than up to the Americans who apparently have unlimited dollars to spare.

[Muzh]

Oh geez, more propaganda. 


C'mon Roy, tell us what really is happening with the Ukonazis.


Edit: From one extreme to the other.