Ukraine-The Future

[Boethius]

OK, you have asked this question so many times so that I feel obliged to answer it.
"Fascist in control in Kiev" was never used by high Russian  officials. This word is widely used in pro-Russian rebel sources, and was used in Russian media in times when Ukrainian  nationalists were in power in Kiev. The last is easy explainable, in Russia people who glorify Bandera are equal to Nazi supporters, and I agree with such attitude if not to go deeper to the scientific or historic definition of fashism.

I know that Bandera=fascist was drilled into every Soviet's head, and that notion still is very strong in Eastern Ukraine and beyond.  However, I disagree with your agreement with this attitude. 
 
Bandera is popular in Western Ukraine not for his politics, but because he (a) fought for an independent Ukraine; and (b)  fought the hated communists.  He is a symbol for Ukrainians who believe they are entitled to their own state.  Just as Russians believe they are entitled to their own state.

Why matching of Kiev govenment with fashists meets with a generous response at
Donbass? Because people at Donbass see the attitude of men in power in Kiev
towards Donbass. I'll specify some facts which were taken close to hearts at
Donbass. First, Odessa was turning point in the conflict. Death of a few tens
men was justified by some Ukrainian officials  with convincing claim that
victims were pro-Russian separatists. Nobody was sentenced in Odessa fire so
far.

But the conflict in Donbas was not started by locals.  Moreover, it came before the Odesa fire.

Close aide to Kolomoiski, Boris Filatov, had
written at his Facebook page famous phrase about pro-Russians: Promise them
whatever they want, we'll hang them later. Filatov is not Ukrainian jornalist
(that would be natural), he is a high rank official in key Ukrainian region.

Don't you think that Kolomoisky and Filatov would have been gone without a war?

Prime minister of Ukraine, Arseny Yatsenyuk has referred to pro-Russians at
Donbass as subhuman:Word "subhuman" is echoing the racist propaganda of Nazism
as well as "cleaning our land". Though one can argue about correct translation
of Ukrainian word нелюды into subhuman, prime minister should be more careful in
wording concerning his own citizens.

I would not translate "nelyudy" from Ukrainian as subhuman.  I would translate it as not acting in a normal, humanitarian manner, inhumane.  Moreover, Yatseniuk never stated that they would cleanse individuals from lands.  Note, I say this with no particular fondness for Yatseniuk. 

Even more with Yatsnyuk, who recently associated Ukraine with Germany in WWII in sense that both countries falled victims to Soviet assault.

Once again, the quote is not taken in the context it was made.  He stated that Eastern and Central Europe, like Ukraine, were victims as they were subjugated to the USSR.  This, in my opinion, is accurate.  The USSR was, as Reagan famously stated, an "evil empire".  I know you think differently, but this was widely viewed as true in Central Ukraine when Reagan made the statement.

Some of Ukrainians are fighting at Donbass under swastika. There are Russian
nazis at Donbass too fighting among rebels, however there is a big difference. Swastika and Nazi attributes are outlawed in Russia, Nazi supporters are prosecuted, while Ukrainians have got tolerable attitude to them.

Democracies should be strong enough to not have to ban symbols.  The swasitika is not banned in North America, in fact, Nazis were allowed to march through a Jewish neighbourhood outside Chicago, and their right to do so was protected by the ACLU. 

All of this creates the emotional background at Donbass where thousands were killed by Ukrainian army. Rebels see the enemy and labeled them as fashists without turning to Wikipedia to know the right meaning of this word.

I appreciate your input, Belvis, even if I disagree with you on some points.

[lordtiberius]

Mendy, you are wasting your time with these Novorossiya scum.  They know so much about what isn't true.  They will talk about self determination, but ignore it when it comes to 2012 anti-Putin protests.  They howl about nonexistent Ukrainian Nazis while ignoring Nazi tattoos on the corpses of Russian mercenaries headed back on Gruz 200. They bitch about the undemocratic coups from Kiev while silently approving the political murders from Moscow.  These people are straight up bastards.  Not naming any names.  If the shoe fits wear it

[Chelseaboy]

Whilst Shadow is in self-denial when confronted with the fact that Crimeans were not given the option to remain as part of Ukraine in the illegal Russian referendum that stole the land from Ukraine.

I'm not sure if the Putinists on here are Kremlin trolls or just totally deluded.

[Muzh]

Bo you're just being deliberately difficult. Parubiy is still a minister.

So let's say that Parubiy is still a minister. That makes the Rada a bunch of fascist?


On the other hand...



Russian National Unity (RNE), founded in 1990 and led by Alexander Barkashov, has claimed to have members in 250 cities. RNE adopted the swastika as its symbol, and sees itself as the avant-garde of a coming national revolution. It is critical of other major far right organizations, such as the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR). Historian Walter Laqueur calls RNE far closer to the Nazi model than the LDPR. RNE publishes several news sheets; one of them, Russky poryadok, claims to have a circulation of 150,000. Full members of RNE are called Soratnik (comrades in arms), receive combat training at locations near Moscow, and many of them work as security officers or armed guards. (Laqueur, Walter, Fascism: Past, Present, Future, p. 189)


On August 15, 2007, Russian authorities arrested a student for allegedly posting a video on the Internet which appears to show two migrant workers being beheaded in front of a red and black swastika flag. Alexander Verkhovsky, the head of a Moscow-based center that monitors hate crime in Russia, said, "It looks like this is the real thing. The killing is genuine ... There are similar videos from the Chechen war. But this is the first time the killing appears to have been done intentionally." A Russian neo-Nazi group called the Russian National Socialist Party claimed responsibility for the murders. (Clickety here and here)


Better yet, try this and enjoy the reading. http://lmgtfy.com/?q=russian+neo+nazis

[Muzh]

I read this. Comparing this to the US congress can you imagine how horrified people would be if you told them the current congress "only has 38 Klansmen and 7 Neo Nazis" out of 450. I wouldn't feel good.

Oh dear, you are so insular and so provincial.


Edags!!! Neo-Nazis in Europe!

[Muzh]

    Some of Ukrainians are fighting at Donbass under swastika. There are Russian nazis at Donbass too fighting among rebels, however there is a big difference. Swastika and Nazi attributes are outlawed in Russia, Nazi supporters are prosecuted, while Ukrainians have got tolerable attitude to them.
   

Oh? Like Occupy Pedophilia?

[fathertime]

Why you speak of things you not know?


The best thing the US can do for PR is to give them their independence. Here's the irony. What is happening in PR is exactly what the US and the Western world are pontificating to Russia for doing. Namely, holding a territory hostage for no reason except to project power.

VERY good point...we are guilty of hypocrisy


Fathertime!   

[Gator]

Steamer, no offense my friend, but you obviously have yet to be introduced around the Russian Duma. 

Several threads have touched on fascists.  Today Newsweek published an article entitled: 

                                    Putin’s Russia Is in the Grip of Fascism

                               http://www.newsweek.com/putins-russia-grip-fascism-312513

I found the piece too heavy for my feeble mind. It skips around, touching on the Holocaust, referring to Carl Schmitt, and citing Annette Wieviorka's Era of the Witness, Klein’s paranoid-schizoid position, the French psychoanalyst Didier Anzieu,....

Some quotes: 

This, too, is a feature of projective identification. Thus Ukrainians are systematically accused of fascism, while Russian fascism is displaced by a false idealization of one’s own image.

      But this only begins to describe the situation in Russia today. It is complicated by the paradoxes of post-imperial victimization.   

    Today’s Russian fascist is simultaneously omnipotent and persecuted.     

I did like the closing thought (presuming my understanding of the first sentence is correct):

      Heroic self-assertion turns into infantilization and the victimization of the very project of self-assertion. The more effort put into the projected overcoming of inferiority, the more the “hero” of the Russian world starts to look like a scruffy and troubled young man who lets himself be called “Motorola.”     

The discussion comments were lively and on a different plane than RWD. 

[Steamer]

  Most Western media, which is not biased.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/03/10/ukraine-azov-brigade-nazis-abuses-separatists/24664937/


MARIUPOL, Ukraine — A volunteer brigade with self-proclaimed Nazis fighting alongside government troops against Russian-backed separatists is proving to be a mixed blessing to its cause.Though the 900-member Azov Brigade adds needed manpower to repulse the rebels, members who say they are Nazis are sparking controversy, and complaints of abuses against civilians have turned some residents against them.

He vowed that when the war ends, his comrades will march on the capital, Kiev, to oust a government they consider corrupt.

[Boethius]

Where is the bias in that article?

[Steamer]

Where is the bias in that article?

There is none. It's from a western source discussing the nazi's in the Azov battalion and how they are harassing the people in Mariupol. The nazi's that you (and others) keep saying don't exist.

[AC]

There is none. It's from a western source discussing the nazi's in the Azov battalion and how they are harassing the people in Mariupol. The nazi's that you (and others) keep saying don't exist.

I've read the entire article, and I recommend anyone who is actually interested in the complete truth, the whole truth, to read the entire article.

There was only one allegation by a civilian against this battalion, and it was by a woman whose two sons were initially detained and their cash and other stuff confiscated.  Unlike the real thugs, the pro-Putin bunch, the Ukrainians returned all to her and her sons.  A CO of the Azov battalion offered her an independent investigation into the allegation, which she has accepted.

Compare this to allegations of rape, torture, drugging persons while they are imprisoned, stealing all of their money and not returning it, by the pro-Russian bunch.  The pro-Russian bunch threatens journalists, the Ukrainians do not.

As far as the allegations of "Nazi's" they do indeed exist, on both sides of the conflict.  They are in the minority and the CO has threatened one guy in particular for expressing his personal views, which the CO says are not congruent with the overall views of the unit.

Again, I recommend those with an interest in the truth to read the entire article.  My opinion is that it was published primarily to sell newspapers.  I won't deny it's a potential publicity problem, because clearly it is.

The difference I see is Western journalism will actually print a story like this telling the truth about some fascists, who are in the minority, and Russian journalists will not tell a truthful story about their guys.

[Boethius]

There is none. It's from a western source discussing the nazi's in the Azov battalion and how they are harassing the people in Mariupol. The nazi's that you (and others) keep saying don't exist.

A.  I never stated Nazis don't exist.  Everyone knows that the non ATO forces are made up of people of various political persuasions.  Neo Nazis exist everywhere.  Did you notice the article stated the Azov fighters came mostly from Donbas (i.e., not from the "fascist Western Ukraine")?  What I stated was that fascists do not have power in Kyiv (i.e., the Ukrainian government is not fascist).  That assertion by me has yet to be proven wrong. 


B.  The article did not state the Azov battalion is a neo Nazi or Nazi battalion.  It stated some of its members were neo Nazis, and some have been heavy handed with locals.  It also stated that the majority of the battalion is not made up of Nazi sympathizers.  I thought the article was balanced.


I hope your reading comprehension is better than presented above!

[Steamer]

There was only one allegation by a civilian against this battalion, and it was by a woman whose two sons were initially detained and their cash and other stuff confiscated.  Unlike the real thugs, the pro-Putin bunch, the Ukrainians returned all to her and her sons.  A CO of the Azov battalion offered her an independent investigation into the allegation, which she has accepted.

What about the drill sgt. who claimed that half of the battalion were nazis and the CO said he would be severely punished for his lack of discipline (spilling the beans).

[AC]

What about the drill sgt. who claimed that half of the battalion were nazis and the CO said he would be severely punished for his lack of discipline (spilling the beans).

As poster Boethius just stated, you have reading comprehension problems.  He will be dealt with not for "spilling beans" but because he does not represent the outlook of the battalion.

[AC]

A.  I never stated Nazis don't exist.  Everyone knows that the non ATO forces are made up of people of various political persuasions.  Neo Nazis exist everywhere.  Did you notice the article stated the Azov fighters came mostly from Donbas (i.e., not from the "fascist Western Ukraine")?  What I stated was that fascists do not have power in Kyiv (i.e., the Ukrainian government is not fascist).  That assertion by me has yet to be proven wrong. 

I agree 100% with the part you bolded.  He's just grasping at straws while ignoring the fascist nature of Putin and the fact that Russia has been financing fascists in Hungary and all over Europe.

[Steamer]

What I stated was that fascists do not have power in Kyiv (i.e., the Ukrainian government is not fascist).

Of course that's why the sgt. said they were going to march on Kiev to oust the corrupt govt. once the fighting stops.

The article did not state the Azov battalion is a neo Nazi or Nazi battalion.  It stated some of its members were neo Nazis, and some have been heavy handed with locals.

OK so it's not a nazi battalion but according to the sgt. about half of the men are nazis that have been harassing the locals. My reading comprehension is just fine.

[AC]

Of course that's why the sgt. said they were going to march on Kiev to oust the corrupt govt. once the fighting stops.


OK so it's not a nazi battalion but according to the sgt. about half of the men are nazis that have been harassing the locals. My comprehension is just fine.

The battalion CO did not agree with the "half" figure.  One of the guys is Jewish and nobody is trying to kill or harass him.

These guys are essentially nationalists who believe in protecting their country from the real fascists; those who have invaded from the East.

Were invaders not in E. Ukraine from Russia, financed by Russia, with tanks and other heavy weapons from Russia, we would not even be having this discussion.

[Steamer]

The battalion CO did not agree with the "half" figure.  One of the guys is Jewish and nobody is trying to kill or harass him.

Of course the CO didn't agree with the half figure, he understood he was speaking to a reporter the sgt. didn't care. The sgt. also said that he was good with Jews and didn't believe in genocide. That must have been very reassuring to the one Jew.

[AC]

Of course the CO didn't agree with the half figure, he understood he was speaking to a reporter the sgt. didn't care. The sgt. also said that he was good with Jews and didn't believe in genocide. That must have been very reassuring to the one Jew.

Yes the one Jewish guy in the unit who is alive and well.  Meanwhile back in Moscow Nemtsov, an ethnic Jew was brutally murdered near the Kremlin.  Of course good ole' Putler will get to the bottom of that murder, right Steamer guy?  In fact voila, 5 ethnic Chechens beaten to an inch of their lives, have confessed!!  Wow!! 

[calmissile]

http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-putin-bribes-fines-decrease/26890137.html

[Boethius]

Of course that's why the sgt. said they were going to march on Kiev to oust the corrupt govt. once the fighting stops.

But they haven't yet, so where are the fascists currently controlling Ukraine.  You know, the ones who are such a danger that Russians need to invade to protect the locals from their "fascist government".

OK so it's not a nazi battalion but according to the sgt. about half of the men are nazis that have been harassing the locals. My reading comprehension is just fine.

If your reading comprehension is just fine, then you are cherry picking what you want to "hear".  Another interviewee said that nazi sympathizers were a minority in the Azov battalion.  That suggests a balanced article to me.

[mendeleyev]

Steamer, have you any personal experience with the Azov? I know several, and they are just like you and me, committed to protecting their homeland against the Russian invaders. Until you have your own personal proof, rooted in personal experience, I'm not buying.

Using your logic, I could just as easily claim that the American Democrats were all just a bunch of KKK Klansmen, and despite the fact that the KKK historically has called the Democratic party as their home, you and I are smart enough to realize that a majority of Dems are not sympathetic to the KKK anymore.

In reality you are engaging a diversion. You must think that if enough fingers are pointed in the opposite direction, then the human race will ignore the real fascists, the Russian invaders. I think that most people are smarter than that.

[lordtiberius]

Steamer is lazy.  You haven't figured that out yet?

[fathertime]

Steamer is lazy.  You haven't figured that out yet?

..last person who should be calling somebody lazy is LT.


Fathertime!