Putin is No Hitler

[TheTraveler]

Better turn that around. Obama was raging due to the Olympics and what happened in Syria so he made Putin pay by removing Yanukovich in Ukraine and making it a puppet government.
Makes just a much sense, if not more.

definitely more.

the cases that you and fathertime have made are the most plausible.

and ultimately, any blood shed is on obama's hands.

[Patagonie]

A correct assumption in my opinion. Furthermore, the Ukrainian crisis is used by Washington to get to Putin which is not obedient to them like western Europe. The regime in Kiev is a puppet regime. It remains to be seen if Moscow will continue to stand up to Washington or go back to the 90's when assets were sold cheap to oligarks and the regime was obedient to the west. If Moscow backs Down, ordinary People in Russia will soon find themselves as bad off as back then. Austerity is what is waiting for the Ukrainian People. If he continues to be strong, we risk a hot war, possibly nuclear as some of the fools in Washington believe a first strike contained Nuclear option is winable. If that happens, we're all toast.

I was believing that Ukraine would have difficult time in (at least) the next full decade, adapting to an EU market.
But now i know for a while that in the last monhts (after Yanukovitsh had escaped) the ukrainian budget was in surplus and also now that i have more informations about the scale of the corruption (half or more than the GDP) things seem to me smoother. However the question is : how the new political power can clean all the bad habits ?

[Boethius]

However the question is : how the new political power can clean all the bad habits ?

This group of politicians was in power in the past, and most were corrupt as well.  I think the only way things can change is if the Maidan activists in the cabinet, and the public, keep pressure up on all politicians.

As for the assertion that the Obama administration was behind the Euromaidan protests - laughable.  All world events do not revolve around Washington, even when the Russian controlled press and conspiracy nut theorists/libertarian looney toons bleat otherwise.  Euromaidan was fomented by Ukrainian oligarchs.  Eventually, it was supported by thousands of Ukrainians, tired of living with governments mired in corruption while they live in poverty.  They believe the past has not worked, and, therefore, a new path is needed.  The terrorists in the East were initially funded by Ukrainian oligarchs, but Russia eventually stuck its nose in the conflict.  Former GRU officers command the terrorists, their weapons come from Russia, crossing a border that is usually impenetrable, and the bodies of Russian citizens killed by ATO have been sent back to Russia.   Yeah, Russia had nothing to do with the current violence. 

[Muzh]

Now that Kyiv has not capitulated, we are even seeing a less bellicose response in the controlled Russian media.  They have even stopped referring to the government in Kyiv as a junta.

Are you sure about that?


Fresh off the press


Nice seeing you posting again. 


In another news, Ukraine will not go to war with Russia. It is Russia who will attack Ukraine. Russia's foreign ministry said Sunday that a godless fascist Ukrainian shell hit a Russian border town, killing one saintly person and injuring two other martyrs. The bastard and cowardly Ukraine denied firing a shell into saintly Russian territory. Czar President-for-life Vladimir "Tough Macho Man" Putin expressed "grave concern" over the incident, Russian Propaganda news agencies quoted his spokesman as saying. A statement from Russia's Propaganda Foreign Ministry labeled the event a "provocation" and warned the possibility of "irreversible consequences, the responsibility for which side on the Ukrainian side. We got confused which Donetsk we were shelling and since the Donetsk in Ukraine is larger that the town of Donetsk in Russia, then Ukraine is responsible for this massacre." Russia said the shell hit the courtyard of a residential building in the Russian town of Donetsk -  near the Ukrainian city of the same name that has become a rebel strong hold for Chechen, Uzbek, Mercenaries et.al. Russian patriots - early Sunday. Fascist godless Ukrainian officials denied that any Ukrainian shells had fallen on saintly Russian territory. (Well, DUH! Who would believe these lying fascist scumbags.) Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the Butchers of Kiev Ukraine's National Security and Defense Council, was quoted by Interfax Ukraine as saying that Ukrainian forces "do not fire on the territory of a neighboring country. They do not fire on residential areas." The godless bastard He placed blame for the attack on the rebels.

[The Natural]

I was believing that Ukraine would have difficult time in (at least) the next full decade, adapting to an EU market.
But now i know for a while that in the last monhts (after Yanukovitsh had escaped) the ukrainian budget was in surplus and also now that i have more informations about the scale of the corruption (half or more than the GDP) things seem to me smoother. However the question is : how the new political power can clean all the bad habits ?

EU marked for Ukraine? How would that happen when the conditions of the IMF loans to Ukraine is that the Money is only to be used to service Foreign debt (also to Russian Companies, ironically) and not for it's Citizens? As I understand it, that means the Money will be owed to the Citizens of Ukraine whoose government will put in austerity measures and privatize everything. Sell off the Resources cheaply to western Companies that will rake in the profits and cut Down on pensions, wages for the People, toll roads etc. The educated Ukrainians will go in search of work in other Places and the already poor Citizens of Ukraine will be left even worse off than today.

As a French (and also a province of the US empire) how do you like the squeeze Washington has put on French banks in the tune of 9 billion dollars, I believe it is, for doing business With Russia building hangar ships? What about Germany, where 300.000 jobs are directly Connected to doing business With Russia? Will Europe really commit economic suicide by following orders from the empirial senate in Washington, or will they care for their Citizens and put the foot Down? Time will show.

In the meantime Putin, which have given up hope in reasoning With Washington (and perhaps Europe as well) is travelling around the world in search of New partners. China, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina. Interesting times, ideed...

[lordtiberius]

definitely more.

the cases that you and fathertime have made are the most plausible.

and ultimately, any blood shed is on obama's hands.

And how exactly do you arrive at that conclusion?

Seconldy, why are they right and everyone else is wrong?

[fathertime]

And how exactly do you arrive at that conclusion?

Seconldy, why are they right and everyone else is wrong?

First.....He didn't say "They were right and everyone else was wrong" that is what YOU just said.
 
Second....'right' or 'wrong', it isn't JUST Shadow and me that are making these sort of points.


Fathertime!

[fathertime]

As a French (and also a province of the US empire) how do you like the squeeze Washington has put on French banks in the tune of 9 billion dollars, I believe it is, for doing business With Russia building hangar ships? What about Germany, where 300.000 jobs are directly Connected to doing business With Russia? Will Europe really commit economic suicide by following orders from the empirial senate in Washington, or will they care for their Citizens and put the foot Down? Time will show.

 

To follow up on your point TN, it certainly didn't appear to be a coincidence that the fine levied (9 billion) by the USA was the largest EVER given...and it has happened right after France has said it wasn't cancelling the contract for the Russian assault ships....Of course the French are being fined for disobeying US SANCTIONS against Cuba/Iran/Sudan.   Why exactly do other countries have to abide by sanctions that WE decide to impose?  I sense a growing backlash from both the sanctioned country, and the countries told they may not conduct business with other US 'sanctioned' nations.   Why is it we feel we can tell the world who they can and can't do business with?   


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/cuba-criticizes-9b-us-fine-french-bank-143236697.html;_ylt=A0SO80k1fsRT4hoAaf1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzbzdnYzI2BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1ZJUDI4M18x


Of course one rumor is that the fine will be greatly lessened if France doesn't deliver the ships.


Fathertime!   

[The Natural]

Of course one rumor is that the fine will be greatly lessened if France doesn't deliver the ships.


Fathertime!   

Yes of course, because it's a squeeze. Just like the Mob.

It's heartening to see, even here, that not all Americans buy the bullshit they're fed on TV. You, fathertime, is a real American because you understand what Washington is doing is not for the good of the USA but is rather good for the special interest Groups it's via campaign contributions obliged to serve. All us normal folks will lose if this continue, I say.

Most folks around the world want to be left alone in Peace, but unfortunately most top politicians are meddlers in others affairs. But we the People bear the ultimate responsibility if we keep voting in psycopaths in Office, no matter what country. The US is no worse or better in this regard, only more powerful.

[GQBlues]

Speaking of the mob squeeze...

I saw a special last night on AHC (American Heroes Channel) regarding the overthrow of Batista by Fidel Castro's rebels. It has it that the American mob have openly resided and set-up corruption and casinos all over Cuba thereby rendering that nation's incapability to raise itself to any form of progress and prosperity...thus the revolution.


It so angered the US administration that after Castro triumphantly ousted and rid the country of the mob, and removed all the elements of casinos, gambling, corruption, etc..that the US actually tried to make a deal with the mob to make a hit on Fidel Castro. The CIA wanted the 'hit' to be done mob-style. Out in the open and in public. The mob didn't agree and instead proposed to just poisoned him.

LOL.

Spreading democracy in our world one nation at a time...

Found the link: http://www.ahctv.com/tv-shows/mafias-greatest-hits/mafias-greatest-hits-video/the-uneasy-relationship-between-the-cia-and-the-mob.htm

[fathertime]

Yes of course, because it's a squeeze. Just like the Mob.

It's heartening to see, even here, that not all Americans buy the bullshit they're fed on TV. You, fathertime, is a real American because you understand what Washington is doing is not for the good of the USA but is rather good for the special interest Groups it's via campaign contributions obliged to serve. All us normal folks will lose if this continue, I say.

Most folks around the world want to be left alone in Peace, but unfortunately most top politicians are meddlers in others affairs. But we the People bear the ultimate responsibility if we keep voting in psycopaths in Office, no matter what country. The US is no worse or better in this regard, only more powerful.

Well TN, thanks.  Sometimes I'm wondering exactly who this govt of ours is representing because it usually isn't me.  We (the people) should be out in the streets over some of these issues, but as a society we have become too old/passive, so I also place some blame on the citizenry.   Instead of dealing with our own issues, somehow it is more important to bomb 3rd world countries and dictate terms to much of the world.    In comparing marriage to our country, I sometimes wonder if it is the same people that blame their spouse for all their marital issues are the same ones that are blaming other countries for America's internal issues.  "I'm/the USA is great! Go FIX somebody/somewhere else, there is no problem with me/THE US." USA! USA! USA!!! 


The representatives better wise up and start representing what the people want...and it sure isn't meddling/threatening/sanctioning/ the world!


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

Another Putin thread derailed into anti-Americanism.

[The Natural]

Another Putin thread derailed into anti-Americanism.

Is what is happening to/in Your country what you will Call Americanism? What do you then Call USA of say, a hundred years ago? I would say back then the country had real American honest and good values. Not these days, certainly. But if you like to be a Citizen of an empire that goes crazy around the world creating problems, and that empowers you, then go for it. But as always With empire, it will end in misery and tears. Just a question of time.

[Boethius]

So Russia:

(a)  contrary to international law, and treaties to which it is an adherent, annexes a region after a dubious "referendum" in which one region had 123% turn out, notwithstanding the fact more than one third of the residents of the region boycotted the election;

(b)   starts a propaganda campaign broadcast to a foreign country, suggesting the new Ukrainian government is "crawling" with "fascists" who wish to "destroy" Russians;

(c)   allows fighters and sophisticated military equipment to cross its border, where terrorists shake down the local populace and use them as human shields;

and all of the above is the fault of the United States. 


I am fortunate to have had my eyes opened to the treachery of US hegemony.

[Maxx2]

Is what is happening to/in Your country what you will Call Americanism? What do you then Call USA of say, a hundred years ago? I would say back then the country had real American honest and good values. Not these days, certainly. But if you like to be a Citizen of an empire that goes crazy around the world creating problems, and that empowers you, then go for it. But as always With empire, it will end in misery and tears. Just a question of time.

You, Natural are a Jeffersonian American and more American than some here. America is not so much a country but an idea. The idea that we as individuals are born with natural rights and the government answers to us and not the other way around. The government that was established was supposed to protect those rights. Unfortunately it sees "it's" citizens as it's property and the Constitution as a challenge to it's power. We have been given two political party false choices to choose from. The Democrats whose inspiration is the Communist Manifesto and the man who wrote it and the Republicans who have devolved into NEO-CONS which really have their origins with Trotskyites with a dash of "Project Paperclip" thrown into them (Check Bush the Elder father's banking ties). What is forming to counter these are TRUE liberals and TRUE libertarians (not the phony Bill Maher liberteen types). Ralph Nader recognizes this in his new book "Unstoppable: The Emerging Left-Right Alliance to Dismantle the Corporate State"

[GQBlues]

So Russia:

(a)  contrary to international law, and treaties to which it is an adherent, annexes a region after a dubious "referendum" in which one region had 123% turn out, notwithstanding the fact more than one third of the residents of the region boycotted the election;

(b)   starts a propaganda campaign broadcast to a foreign country, suggesting the new Ukrainian government is "crawling" with "fascists" who wish to "destroy" Russians;

(c)   allows fighters and sophisticated military equipment to cross its border, where terrorists shake down the local populace and use them as human shields;

and all of the above is the fault of the United States. 


I am fortunate to have had my eyes opened to the treachery of US hegemony.

Indirectly, yes....

Granted, the oligarchs of Ukraine did a lot of the in-country mess, but certainly not without the US intervening to begin with. Thus, it doesn't absolve the US for fueling this crisis, then financially supporting the insurgence.

I wondered about this crisis as to why do the 'rebels' in Eastern Ukraine are the ones called the 'separatists', when a majority elected president & government was illegally overthrown by the opposition (minority) and had since taken over governance of the country.

Merriam defines the word *separatist* as: a member of a group of people who want to form a new country, religion, etc., that is separate from the one they are in now.

This is a classic US-led, inspired, financed nation intervention. Anyone objective enough can see the usual pattern the US is known for in this crisis.

We absolutely, positively have no business meddling with Ukraine's plight other than to antagonize Russia. If Ukraine wants to follow their politicians/oligarchs' ambitions, let them do it and do it alone. They want whatever they want in Ukraine, then by golly - fight for it!

If anything, Canada can dispense assistance to Ukraine instead since they keep boasting Canada as having the largest Ukrainian population outside of Ukraine. Walk the talk. They can change their silly light bulbs for a change.

If nothing else...isn't this exactly the reason why US taxpayers' monies are wasted every year to have the *United Nations* for? Where the heck is that useless organization?

[Boethius]

Indirectly, yes....

Granted, the oligarchs of Ukraine did a lot of the in-country mess, but certainly not without the US intervening to begin with. Thus, it doesn't absolve the US for fueling this crisis, then financially supporting the insurgence.

The US did not fund Euromaidan.  It did not fund the oligarchs.  The US was johnny come lately.

I wondered about this crisis as to why do the 'rebels' in Eastern Ukraine are the ones called the 'separatists', when a majority elected president & government was illegally overthrown by the opposition (minority) and had since taken over governance of the country.

The president was not overthrown.  He fled the country.  Now, one could argue he had no choice (I would argue he was pressured to leave office), but that is a different matter.

As for the government, you are incorrect.  The Rada was elected in 2012.  The members of the current sitting Rada were all elected then.  The composition has not changed.  No party has enough seats to govern as a majority, so the support of another party is required.

Merriam defines the word *separatist* as: a member of a group of people who want to form a new country, religion, etc., that is separate from the one they are in now.

Oxford defines terrorist as "a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims".

At all times until the Berkut were called in, Euromaidan was a peaceful protest, with the support of just under half of the Ukrainian populace.  Contrast that with the terrorists in the Donetsk triangle, who have beaten and tortured, and even murdered pro Kyiv politicians, journalists on all sides, and those who do not support them.  They have forced locals to fund them with "donations" taken "voluntarily" with the help of the barrell of a gun, looted stores, demanded locals house them in their apartments, and used locals as human shields.  Yup, they are simply "separatists" who do not wish to live under the democracy of the Russian propaganda described "junta".

This is a classic US-led, inspired, financed nation intervention. Anyone objective enough can see the usual pattern the US is known for in this crisis.

LOL.  Anyone who knows anything about Ukraine knows that is not accurate.  This is about internal Ukrainian politics, corruption, and Ukrainians knowing, from their history, that tying their fortunes to Russia, rather than the West when they have a chance, would not lead to a better life for the average Ukrainian. 

We absolutely, positively have no business meddling with Ukraine's plight other than to antagonize Russia. If Ukraine wants to follow their politicians/oligarchs' ambitions, let them do it and do it alone. They want whatever they want in Ukraine, then by golly - fight for it!

So go and tell it to the thousands who have died to date.  Most at the hands of Russian supplied weapons. 

Anyone who knows anything of Ukraine's history, from the 17th century on, knows why Ukrainians wanted to lean West, rather than East.  Anyone who knows that history also understands that the US is not Ukraine's enemy, and is not behind what is occurring.  Russia, OTOH . . .

If anything, Canada can dispense assistance to Ukraine instead since they keep boasting Canada as having the largest Ukrainian population outside of Ukraine. Walk the talk. They can change their silly light bulbs for a change.

You are mistaken.  Canada has sent significant funds, and manpower, to Ukraine.  The Council of Advisors to the Parliament of Ukraine and the Renaissance Foundation were both founded by Canadian diaspora Ukrainians, most of whom moved to Kyiv after independence.  The judicial system, which was fully independent until Yanukovych gutted it (though there was a leaning to corruption under Tymoshenko) was established thanks to Canadian diaspora lawyers who worked for almost two decades to put that system in place.    Ukraine's constitution was created thanks to the work of diaspora Ukrainians, most from Canada.  The Ministry of Foreign Affairs was established with the work of two Canadians, who advised both Kravchuk and Kuchma.

The most prestigious university in Ukraine, the Mohyla Academy, was reestablished thanks to the work of predominantly Canadian Ukrainian scholars.  It is now the preeminent university for the study of various aspects of Ukrainian history.  That is quite an achievement in two scant decades.

Ukrainian bankers were largely trained in Canada.  Agricultural practices were updated thanks to exchanges with Canadian agricultural experts.  There are entire university programmes devoted to upgrading the skills of physicians and nurses in Western settings, and that's been occurring since Ukraine's independence.

There are tens of thousands of Ukrainian students who study abroad, thanks to donations by the Canadian Ukrainian diaspora. 

Finally, the Canadian government has poured tens of millions in aid to establish various democratic and humanitarian institutions and causes.  I believe all of this has, in fact, created an albeit imperfect democracy, but, a democracy nonetheless.  Ukraine is not authoritarian, in the manner Russia is.  Its press is much freer, its media far less controlled. 


So, the diaspora has done a lot, both at a federal level, and at an individual level, to promote and sustain Ukraine's democracy.

[Boethius]

Re Canada's diaspora.  Here are some current academic projects -

http://www.macewan.ca/wcm/SchoolsFaculties/ArtsScience/CentresandInstitutes/UkrainianResourceandDevelopmentCentre/Projects/index.htm

Grant MacEwan's Ukrainian Resource and Development Centre has been funding projects since 1991.  It funding thousands of Ukrainian nurses, who received advanced medical training in Canada.  It has also funded numerous folklore projects, and education projects throughout Ukraine.

http://www.ualberta.ca/CIUS/kowalsky/

http://www.ualberta.ca/CIUS/ukrcan/uc-home.htm

CIUS also underwrites the academic research of numerous Ukrainian scholars, and publishes their works.

The University of Alberta and the University of Toronto fund Ukrainian students and scholars in various ways, including underwriting their travel to study abroad.



These organizations are behind the scenes for almost every Ukrainian student who studies in Canada, no matter what discipline. 

[GQBlues]

The US did not fund Euromaidan.  It did not fund the oligarchs.  The US was johnny come lately....

LOL, Really?!? $5.1 billion dollars' worth of *democracy building programs* plus whatever Nuland recently requisitioned in Congress to spend on *border security*, election monitoring, etc....

Yes...we have absolutely nothing to do with this regime change.

...The president was not overthrown.  He fled the country.  Now, one could argue he had no choice (I would argue he was pressured to leave office), but that is a different matter....

A president *unconstitutionally* removed is an overthrow. A coup. Nothing in Ukraine's presiding constitution exist that validate the 'legal' removal of their president in the manner they did. I know you won't have any conviction in this because you had earlier admitted this removal to be *illegal*.

...As for the government, you are incorrect.  The Rada was elected in 2012.  The members of the current sitting Rada were all elected then.  The composition has not changed.  No party has enough seats to govern as a majority, so the support of another party is required...

No, you are...The governing collective of Ukraine includes the office of the president. Just as they are in the US's 3 branches of government; the executive, legislative and the judicial branches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_of_Ukraine

Oxford defines terrorist as "a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims"...

Good. I'm happy for Oxford. However, he should pay closer attention because the word was 'separatist'.

...At all times until the Berkut were called in, Euromaidan was a peaceful protest, with the support of just under half of the Ukrainian populace.  Contrast that with the terrorists in the Donetsk triangle, who have beaten and tortured, and even murdered pro Kyiv politicians, journalists on all sides, and those who do not support them.  They have forced locals to fund them with "donations" taken "voluntarily" with the help of the barrell of a gun, looted stores, demanded locals house them in their apartments, and used locals as human shields.  Yup, they are simply "separatists" who do not wish to live under the democracy of the Russian propaganda described "junta"...

Yup. It was peaceful alright until someone started shooting to fuel a hostile unrest. Even you admitted it wasn't by order of Yanukovich, which he was framed for..

The problem with *emotional* commentary is you lose all sense of objectivity and is usually mired on the *effect* instead of the *cause*. We witness this in this crisis, just as folks are witnessing this in the current Israel/Gaza conflict.

...LOL.  Anyone who knows anything about Ukraine knows that is not accurate.  This is about internal Ukrainian politics, corruption, and Ukrainians knowing, from their history, that tying their fortunes to Russia, rather than the West, when they have a chance, would not lead to a better life for the average Ukrainian.  ...

LOL. Tying their state to Russia? Shouldn't they have thought of that back in 2010 election? I mean if they really feel that deeply about the noise, no?

...So go and tell it to the thousands who have died to date.  Most at the hands of Russian supplied weapons....

All of the Ukrainian military weaponry ARE Russian weaponry. Including rockets, planes and tanks...Can you be more specific? I agree btw, Ukraine should stop killing its citizens. 

...Anyone who knows anything of Ukraine's history, from the 17th century on, knows why Ukrainians wanted to lean West, rather than East.  Anyone who knows that history also understands that the US is not Ukraine's enemy, and is not behind what is occurring.  Russia, OTOH . . .

Well, anyone who understand recent history knows Ukraine was a soviet state, thereby making it an adversarial state of the USA. But what does this have to do with Ukraine making its own hay by itself. Surely if they mean to move away from Russia all this time, why take a few thousand years?

...You are mistaken.  Canada has sent significant funds, and manpower, to Ukraine.  The judicial system, which was fully independent until Yanukovych gutted it (though there was a leaning to corruption under Tymoshenko) was established thanks to Canadian diaspora lawyers who worked for almost two decades to put that system in place. ..

Funds?!? That's it? Heck, we sent John McCain, Kerry, and even the CIA's top brass John Brenner. If that isn't enough, we even sacrfice Mr. Hunter Biden's time to run Ukraine's gas company Burisma from here on in. I'm sure all of these was about determining if Charmin really is *squeezably soft*. Still, I would love the CIA's opinion on this and Nuland's bake sale..

...The most prestigious university in Ukraine, the Mohyla Academy, was reestablished thanks to the work of predominantly Canadian Ukrainian scholars.  It is now the preeminent university for the study of various aspects of Ukrainian history.  That is quite an achievement in two scant decades....

...and this helped the state of Ukraine exactly how? Methinks maybe all this study of history ought to take a temporary hiatus and concentrated more on the social problems presiding Ukraine. They should've began with their mortality rate, their systems of governance, their society's corrupted ways, etc...Canada should've known this better, don't you think?

....Ukrainian bankers were largely trained in Canada.  Agricultural practices were updated thanks to exchanges with Canadian agricultural experts.  There are entire university programmes devoted to upgrading the skills of physicians and nurses in Western settings, and that's been occurring since Ukraine's independence....

Well, the upgraded skills of physicians and nurses hasn't really helped their mortality rate any, no? We've discussed their dentistry around here too. Some say it's good, some say it's atrocious...and what it really mean is, it is pretty spotty.

There are tens of thousands of Ukrainian students who study abroad, thanks to donations by the Canadian Ukrainian diaspora....

No doubt....but despite it all, how did that do Ukraine any good for all these years? The crisis is happening today Boethius. 

...Finally, the Canadian government has poured tens of millions in aid to establish various democratic and humanitarian institutions and causes.  I believe all of this has, in fact, created an albeit imperfect democracy, but, a democracy nonetheless.  Ukraine is not authoritarian, in the manner Russia is.  Its press is much freer, its media far less controlled.

Millions? That's it? When does it hit the proverbial 'billions'?

Hell, send in your military. We did...

[GQBlues]

Re Canada's diaspora.  Here are some current academic projects -

http://www.macewan.ca/wcm/SchoolsFaculties/ArtsScience/CentresandInstitutes/UkrainianResourceandDevelopmentCentre/Projects/index.htm

Grant MacEwan's Ukrainian Resource and Development Centre has been funding projects since 1991.  It funding thousands of Ukrainian nurses, who received advanced medical training in Canada.  It has also funded numerous folklore projects, and education projects throughout Ukraine.

http://www.ualberta.ca/CIUS/kowalsky/

http://www.ualberta.ca/CIUS/ukrcan/uc-home.htm

CIUS also underwrites the academic research of numerous Ukrainian scholars, and publishes their works.

The University of Alberta and the University of Toronto fund Ukrainian students and scholars in various ways, including underwriting their travel to study abroad.

These organizations are behind the scenes for almost every Ukrainian student who studies in Canada, no matter what discipline.

You can save all these, Boethius.

1. Because whatever tender you lay out, I can top you in excess equivalency in what the US taxpayers doled out for Ukraine.
2. You can believe this mess is all about reforming and freedom of Ukraine. Wonderful and I applaud you. I wish it to be so too for the Ukrainian people...

But all these deflections doesn't change reality for what it is...

The *Ukrainians* you speak of not only consist of the western region of Ukraine, regardless of ethnicity. Ukranians consist of ALL the peoples of Ukraine, which, if you can still remember, the majority of which who went to the polls in 2010 legally elected a president. Now that very same *majority* is under siege by the *replacement* governing body. Ukranians dying in Ukraine today isn't only worth the recognition based solely on the region they're from. That's the tragedy in this freaking mess the US meddled in.

Corruption in Ukraine didn't start and stopped with Yanukovich, and there's very good reason to believe it is still presiding in Ukraine today and very likely to continue for more years to come. If you can't be objective enough with your conviction to admit this, then that too, is your call...

[Ranetka]

So Russia:

(a)  contrary to international law, and treaties to which it is an adherent, annexes a region after a dubious "referendum" in which one region had 123% turn out, notwithstanding the fact more than one third of the residents of the region boycotted the election;

(b)   starts a propaganda campaign broadcast to a foreign country, suggesting the new Ukrainian government is "crawling" with "fascists" who wish to "destroy" Russians;

(c)   allows fighters and sophisticated military equipment to cross its border, where terrorists shake down the local populace and use them as human shields;

and all of the above is the fault of the United States. 


I am fortunate to have had my eyes opened to the treachery of US hegemony.

Донбасс никто не ставил на колени.
И никому поставить не дано.

Павел Б. 1942.


Is that response enough?

[Boethius]

LOL, Really?!? $5.1 billion dollars' worth of *democracy building programs* plus whatever Nuland recently requisitioned in Congress to spend on *border security*, election monitoring, etc....

Yes...we have absolutely nothing to do with this regime change.

The $5.1 billion is funding over 23 years.  That funding went to fund programmes against HIV/AIDS, the human trafficking, narcotics trafficking, and the proliferation of nuclear arms.  Over $300 million of US funding was used to clean up the Chernobyl site.  US funds have also been used in promoting the rule of law, training journalists, groups for civic engagement (i.e., training activists), and election observers. 


US funding is coordinated with funding from Canada and EU countries.  It is no accident that Ukraine had methadone clinics for drug addicts, while Russia has none, or that Ukraine's former (pro Western) PM was arrested for money laundering, and served a long sentence, in the United States.

A president *unconstitutionally* removed is an overthrow. A coup. Nothing in Ukraine's presiding constitution exist that validate the 'legal' removal of their president in the manner they did. I know you won't have any conviction in this because you had earlier admitted this removal to be *illegal*.

Yanukovych was not removed from office unconstitutionally.  He left the country.  He abandoned office.  Under Ukraine's constitution, an interim president is appointed in such circumstances, and elections must be held.  Therefore, the constitution was followed, not usurped.  The best you can say is that Yanukovych was forced by Euromaidan activists to flee the country.  No different than Nixon, really.  Was that a coup as well?

No, you are...The governing collective of Ukraine includes the office of the president. Just as they are in the US's 3 branches of government; the executive, legislative and the judicial branches.

Thanks for the link, although I am not really certain what your point is.


Ukraine is not a republic.  The Rada, not the president, is the highest body of the executive branch, and the members elected to the Rada in 2012 are the same members sitting today. Yanukovych was not removed from office.

Good. I'm happy for Oxford. However, he should pay closer attention because the word was 'separatist'.

A separatist typically does not terrorize the populace of the region he is trying to "liberate".

Yup. It was peaceful alright until someone started shooting to fuel a hostile unrest. Even you admitted it wasn't by order of Yanukovich, which he was framed for..

No, the unrest started when Berkut started beating and shooting protesters.  An independent investigator found that Yanukovych did not give orders to shoot the protesters on February  20, 2014.  That is the mass shootings that resulted in Yanukovych fleeing the country.  However, there is photographic evidence of the shooters, and they were the SBU, under authority of Yanukovych's appointee, Alexander Yakimenko.  So, it was not the US, or Euromaidan activists who killed protesters. 

The problem with *emotional* commentary is you lose all sense of objectivity and is usually mired on the *effect* instead of the *cause*. We witness this in this crisis, just as folks are witnessing this in the current Israel/Gaza conflict.

The cause is corruption, to a degree even Ukrainians could no longer tolerate it.  Will that corruption cease?  Not in the short term.  Perhaps in another generation, if Ukraine moves closer to the EU.

LOL. Tying their state to Russia? Shouldn't they have thought of that back in 2010 election? I mean if they really feel that deeply about the noise, no?

No, you misunderstand what I am posting, probably because you do not know Ukraine's history. 


Russia has always interfered in Ukraine's internal politics, for its own political purposes and foreign policy objectives.  That is one of the reasons Ukraine did not have an independent state.  Do you believe Kuchma and Yushchenko had no relations with Russia?  Ukraine can't change its geography.  However, history tells us that it is exactly at this juncture that Russia will try to assert itself in Ukrainian politics for its own purposes.  That is exactly what occurred.  Now, one could argue the EU association, tied as it was to IMF austerity measures, was too much for Ukraine to absorb.  However, disclosures on shell companies controlled by Yanukovych cronies, which and untendered contracts tell another story.  That is what Ukrainians objected to.   They did not want the same crony capitalism.  They believe the EU transparency rules will aid them in reducing the massive theft of state assets.


Ukrainians do not object to having foreign and economic relations with Russia.  They do, however, want their own state, free from Russian interference.

All of the Ukrainian military weaponry ARE Russian weaponry. Including rockets, planes and tanks...Can you be more specific? I agree btw, Ukraine should stop killing its citizens. 

Nope.  Arms is Ukraine's third largest export.  The planes, rockets, and tanks are all made in Ukraine.  Guns are likely manufactured in Russia. 


The most deaths in Ukraine to date have been at the hands of the terrorists, not the Ukrainian government. 

Well, anyone who understand recent history knows Ukraine was a soviet state, thereby making it an adversarial state of the USA. But what does this have to do with Ukraine making its own hay by itself. Surely if they mean to move away from Russia all this time, why take a few thousand years?

It was part of the USSR, but Ukrainian language, culture, the Greek Catholic Church, and even its past history were all suppressed by the Soviets.  Ukrainian language was also restricted by the Tsars. 


Millions of Ukrainians died trying to shed the yoke of Russian imperialism.  The fact you would even post this indicates the paucity of your knowledge in this area.


Now, don't get me wrong, I love Russian culture, its literature and music, and there are numerous similarities in the culture, but, if one is ethnically Ukrainian and knows the history, there is a reason why Ukrainians fear this current interference in its state affairs. 

...and this helped the state of Ukraine exactly how? Methinks maybe all this study of history ought to take a temporary hiatus and concentrated more on the social problems presiding Ukraine. They should've began with their mortality rate, their systems of governance, their society's corrupted ways, etc...Canada should've known this better, don't you think?

You can't build a state without knowing the past.  You can't build a state without a rule of law, or an independent press.


Mortality rates don't change overnight.  Most of Ukraine's mortality it tied to alcoholism.  The attitude toward alcohol has to change, and that will take at least another generation.  BTW, no one in the better half's family drinks, and they all live to their late eighties, early nineties. 

Well, the upgraded skills of physicians and nurses hasn't really helped their mortality rate any, no? We've discussed their dentistry around here too. Some say it's good, some say it's atrocious...and what it really mean is, it is pretty spotty.

I have had personal experience, via various family members, with state funded Ukrainian healthcare.  So far, six surgeries, three of them quite complex (one emergency), all with excellent results. 


As for mortality, see my comments on alcoholism.  Ukrainians who don't drink tend to be long lived.

No doubt....but despite it all, how did that do Ukraine any good for all these years? The crisis is happening today Boethius. 

The crisis was manufactured, and continues now primarily because of Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs.

Millions? That's it? When does it hit the proverbial 'billions'?

Hell, send in your military. We did...

Funds are sent to aid particular projects, and funding is based on that need. 


The U.S. military is not in Ukraine, although I suspect since March, US military advisors have been aiding the Ukrainian military on strategy.

[Boethius]

Донбасс никто не ставил на колени.
И никому поставить не дано.

Павел Б. 1942.


Is that response enough?

No.  The Donbas is not part of the Russian Federation.  Russia has no right to interfere in Ukraine's domestic politics.

[Muzh]

The $5.1 billion is funding over 23 years.  That funding went to fund programmes against HIV/AIDS, the human trafficking, narcotics trafficking, and the proliferation of nuclear arms.  Over $300 million of US funding was used to clean up the Chernobyl site.  US funds have also been used in promoting the rule of law, training journalists, groups for civic engagement (i.e., training activists), and election observers. 


US funding is coordinated with funding from Canada and EU countries.  It is no accident that Ukraine had methadone clinics for drug addicts, while Russia has none, or that Ukraine's former (pro Western) PM was arrested for money laundering, and served a long sentence, in the United States.

In other words, it is regime change. The US blatantly interfered with Ukraine's path to unification with their bigger, saintlier brothers; Russia.

Yanukovych was not removed from office unconstitutionally.  He left the country.  He abandoned office.  Under Ukraine's constitution, an interim president is appointed in such circumstances, and elections must be held.  Therefore, the constitution was followed, not usurped.  The best you can say is that Yanukovych was forced by Euromaidan activists to flee the country.  No different than Nixon, really.  Was that a coup as well?

Well, there are conservative neocons like Cheney that still calim it was a liberal coup. 

[Ranetka]

No.  The Donbas is not part of the Russian Federation.  Russia has no right to interfere in Ukraine's domestic politics.

Unlike other people on this forum you can read Russian and Ukrainian. Right now as we speak Ukrainian government is bombing Ukrainian citizens in their homes. They destroyed Slavyansk. This is a civil war and genocide. And there are many other smaller places and people I could mention but what for.

 I do not care what country Donbass belong to, this is where my relatives , my people live, Kiev together with Galicia and all your рагули Bandera crowd can f off as far as I am concerned.