Putin is No Hitler

[Boethius]

Slovyansk is not completely destroyed, and over half the populace there is happy the Ukrainian army is present.  They are complaining about the lack of infrastructure (water, electricity), which must be restored.


During the unilateral ceasefire, Ukrainian soldiers did not attack the terrorists.  The terrorists attacked Ukrainians, over 100 times, killing 28 soldiers.  The terrorists also refuse to negotiate a ceasefire, so what option does Ukraine have?  Should they allow them to continue to terrorize locals?  To establish "self government" while threatening, beating, and killing those who don't support them?  Do you think the UK would allow this on their soil?


The current Ukrainian government has a few Svoboda members, but they are not the majority, nor is Poroshenko a member of Svoboda.  So, the reference to the Ukrainian government as "fascists" or "Banderivtsi" is erroneous and misplaced.

[Muzh]

Unlike other people on this forum you can read Russian and Ukrainian. Right now as we speak Ukrainian government is bombing Ukrainian citizens in their homes. They destroyed Slavyansk. This is a civil war and genocide. And there are many other smaller places and people I could mention but what for.

 I do not care what country Donbass belong to, this is where my relatives , my people live, Kiev together with Galicia and all your рагули Bandera crowd can f off as far as I am concerned.

Interesting that you feel that way.


However, for a while MY family was constantly threatened by outsiders claiming to be Ukrainian patriots from that part of the country but couldn't find their way in town. My MIL was extremely vocal defending Ukrainian citizenship and some (thank goodness just some, not many) would insult her and would TELL her to go away. Figure that. Born and raised there, buried all her relatives in the same village and these assholes are threatening her of forcibly moving her away from her village just because she would proudly proclaim she is Ukrainian.


Their home place is NOT Russia, it is Ukraine. Again, born and raised. FINALLY there are people who will defend their homeland against terrorist aggressors.


And lastly, you SHOULD care what country DONBASS belong to. You don't want to be accused of inciting sedition in a foreign country, do you?

[Ranetka]

Boe Slavyansk was destroyed by bombing. No-one at this stage knows how many civilians been killed. They were not klled by rebels, they were killed by bombing...Plus the fact that city was without water and some areas were without electricity....And the fact that humanitarian loads were not let through. Hospitals are no good in treating people without water, electricity or medicine or when there is a bomb falling into it. Or when maternity ward is being bombed, it does not help much. I know the youngest victim was 10 months. They destroyed water supply, schools, hospitals, residential areas. You know you do not do it to your own people. Remind me as I am not good with names, which member of  Ukrainian government promised to put Donbass' population (all population) through filtration camps and then have them relocated to other areas? 

[lordtiberius]

Is what is happening to/in Your country what you will Call Americanism? What do you then Call USA of say, a hundred years ago? I would say back then the country had real American honest and good values. Not these days, certainly. But if you like to be a Citizen of an empire that goes crazy around the world creating problems, and that empowers you, then go for it. But as always With empire, it will end in misery and tears. Just a question of time.

Thank you for your comment.  Naturally, I disagree with your characterization of my country.  But I am sure that you will find many adherents to your view here.  It sure beats discussing the morality of Mr. Putin's actions.

Meanwhile in Europe . . .

[GQBlues]

The $5.1 billion is funding over 23 years.  That funding went to fund programmes against HIV/AIDS, the human trafficking, narcotics trafficking, and the proliferation of nuclear arms.  Over $300 million of US funding was used to clean up the Chernobyl site.  US funds have also been used in promoting the rule of law, training journalists, groups for civic engagement (i.e., training activists), and election observers. 


US funding is coordinated with funding from Canada and EU countries.  It is no accident that Ukraine had methadone clinics for drug addicts, while Russia has none, or that Ukraine's former (pro Western) PM was arrested for money laundering, and served a long sentence, in the United States....

For what it's worth, all you really cited is what the 'alleged' destination of the funds, Boethius. You know this, I know this, everyone knows this...But you also know, but didn't cite, that no one knows exactly how, and where, these monies actually get dispersed. If you're going to recite sanitized accounting, at least leave a caveat of the fact even our State Department/USAid and the National Endowment for Democracy are mum about the actual allocation/s of the money.

Here's a site called 'Publish What You Fund' : http://ati.publishwhatyoufund.org/index-2013/report/

It's supposed to have just concluded (finally) an accounting on exactly where the foreign aid monies go to, how it's monitored, check-ups and follow ups if the monies are in fact being utilized as targeted, etc....knock yourself out in reading it. I assure you it has no monitoring system check accountability..

"The main channels of U.S. aid are the State Department; the U.S. Agency for International Department; the National Endowment for Democracy, a nonprofit entity funded through direct appropriations from Congress; and the Millennium Challenge Corporation. Other agencies may provide further funding.The spending by U.S. government agencies often flows through for-profit companies, including PACT, Democracy International, and Chemonics International.

The path of this money creates another layer obscuring the final source of U.S. foreign aid, as the companies distribute money to non-governmental organizations in Ukraine, or to other countries.

"Where's the U.S. money going?" asked Publish What You Fund U.S. representative Sally Paxton. "If it goes to Chemonics, then who does it go to? And how do you hold the NGOs, whether they're in the Ukraine or in the U.S., accountable if none of this chain of spending is ever reported?"

USAID referred Ukraine aid questions to the State Department, which didn't respond. National Endowment for Democracy did not return a call...."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/07/us-foreign-aid-ukraine_n_4914682.html

 

...Yanukovych was not removed from office unconstitutionally.  He left the country.  He abandoned office....

Please cite for us the 4 instances where a president can be removed from his duties...

...Under Ukraine's constitution, an interim president is appointed in such circumstances, and elections must be held.  Therefore, the constitution was followed, not usurped.  The best you can say is that Yanukovych was forced by Euromaidan activists to flee the country.  No different than Nixon, really.  Was that a coup as well?...

IF, and only IF, a president is legally removed from office. That never happened here now and you even agreed it was illegal. I hope I don't need to quote you on this...

...Thanks for the link, although I am not really certain what your point is...

Well, maybe you just didn't want to admit it...but it doesn't matter since we both know the office of the president, even in Ukraine's form of government IS a vital part of governance. Otherwise, why go through the silly gyrations of presidential elections, no?

...Ukraine is not a republic...

Ukraine IS a Unitary Republic... it was known as the People's Republic, but is now known as unitary republic with semi-presidential system...Just like other nations of Europe, like France for instance, where their president is a vital 'part' of their government.

 

>>Ukraine is a unitary republic under a semi-presidential system with separate powers: legislative, executive, and judicial branches. Its capital and largest city is Kiev...<<<

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

...The Rada, not the president, is the highest body of the executive branch, and the members elected to the Rada in 2012 are the same members sitting today...

That still doesn't refute the fact the president's office is a vital part of their legitimate governing.

...Yanukovych was not removed from office....

Yes he is...

...A separatist typically does not terrorize the populace of the region he is trying to "liberate"....

Nor does a *reformed* democratically declared society bomb their citizens.

...No, the unrest started when Berkut started beating and shooting protesters.  An independent investigator found that Yanukovych did not give orders to shoot the protesters on February  20, 2014.  That is the mass shootings that resulted in Yanukovych fleeing the country.  However, there is photographic evidence of the shooters, and they were the SBU, under authority of Yanukovych's appointee, Alexander Yakimenko.  So, it was not the US, or Euromaidan activists who killed protesters...

The SBU should then be dismantled and hunted down, not Yanukovich. That is, if this *independent* investigators can even be trusted (Isn't it silly to call them *independent*, as though its some huge freaking secret that no one should know who the hell they are, no?).

Either way, if Yanu was guilty of this, then everyone in the government should be just as guilty considering YOU believe the office of the presidency in Ukraine is literally impotent. You can't have this both ways Boethius.

...he cause is corruption, to a degree even Ukrainians could no longer tolerate it.  Will that corruption cease?  Not in the short term.  Perhaps in another generation, if Ukraine moves closer to the EU....

Well, they're not making a very convincing go at it right now if Tymoshenko is going about the country hunting down those whom she feels caused her incarceration. Moreover, you and I can agree she's just as corrupt and guilty of the charges that jailed her - yet this new reformed government not only released her, but stuck her name in the ballot for presidency...

Pretty democratic, yes?

...No, you misunderstand what I am posting, probably because you do not know Ukraine's history.


Russia has always interfered in Ukraine's internal politics, for its own political purposes and foreign policy objectives.  That is one of the reasons Ukraine did not have an independent state.  Do you believe Kuchma and Yushchenko had no relations with Russia?  Ukraine can't change its geography.  However, history tells us that it is exactly at this juncture that Russia will try to assert itself in Ukrainian politics for its own purposes.  That is exactly what occurred.  Now, one could argue the EU association, tied as it was to IMF austerity measures, was too much for Ukraine to absorb.  However, disclosures on shell companies controlled by Yanukovych cronies, which and untendered contracts tell another story.  That is what Ukrainians objected to.   They did not want the same crony capitalism.  They believe the EU transparency rules will aid them in reducing the massive theft of state assets.

Ukrainians do not object to having foreign and economic relations with Russia.  They do, however, want their own state, free from Russian interference....

LOL.

Ukraine has always been intertwined with Russia historically. The large swat of their own citizens are, in fact - ethnic Russians.

....Nope.  Arms is Ukraine's third largest export.  The planes, rockets, and tanks are all made in Ukraine.  Guns are likely manufactured in Russia....

Like I said, Russian weaponry     

...The most deaths in Ukraine to date have been at the hands of the terrorists, not the Ukrainian government....

Which for what it's worth are Ukrainian citizens, isn't that correct? 

...It was part of the USSR, but Ukrainian language, culture, the Greek Catholic Church, and even its past history were all suppressed by the Soviets.  Ukrainian language was also restricted by the Tsars....

Translation: Yes, you agree with me - It was a Soviet State. 

...Millions of Ukrainians died trying to shed the yoke of Russian imperialism.  The fact you would even post this indicates the paucity of your knowledge in this area....

Why is it when a valid point is made to you, you resort to this type of rebuttal?

Millions of Russians and Ukrainians alike also died liberating Ukraine from Nazi Germany, so what is your point?

...Now, don't get me wrong, I love Russian culture, its literature and music, and there are numerous similarities in the culture, but, if one is ethnically Ukrainian and knows the history, there is a reason why Ukrainians fear this current interference in its state affairs....

 

Current interference? How can it be a 'current interference' when these two ethnicity had shared commonalities for hundreds of years?

Here's a often ignored fact in this current crisis, Boethius. You included. Almost 80% of Ukraine's population is Ukrainian. While less than 20% are Russians. Now, the majority of the 2010 election voters, which was closely monitored and certified to be legitimate, elected Yanukovich, which if given just a quick thought - both Ukrainians and Russians *chose* who was to lead them in that election. That wasn't any ethnic division that you seem to be advancing all the time.

Your current sentiment in this parallel those whom you scorn today. If Ukrainians didn't want any part of 'Russia' for decades, etc...why the heck did their majority put one in office they knew supports the Kremlin and not one they knew was staunchly pro-western (Tymoshenko)?

...You can't build a state without knowing the past.  You can't build a state without a rule of law, or an independent press...

...and you can never build a true democracy from the seeds of corruption and illegitimacy.

...Mortality rates don't change overnight.  Most of Ukraine's mortality it tied to alcoholism.  The attitude toward alcohol has to change, and that will take at least another generation.  BTW, no one in the better half's family drinks, and they all live to their late eighties, early nineties....

Yeah...but I thought Canada has been there making all these wonderful provisions and education for decades? How come that hasn't shown improvement at all? 

...As for mortality, see my comments on alcoholism.  Ukrainians who don't drink tend to be long lived...

I would agree. That's a good place to concentrate your education, no? Maybe if had concentrated more on this instead of say, history classes, even at least for a decade or so...Ukraine may well be a progressive nation by now...

...The crisis was manufactured, and continues now primarily because of Russian interference in Ukraine's internal affairs....

Silly me. I thought it was because Kiev didn't want the people of Eastern Ukraine (Ukrainians) to be heard and have any representation on any resolution meetings...

Remember what I said about *emotional* objectivity?

...Funds are sent to aid particular projects, and funding is based on that need...

Sort like handing a temper tantrum child with a lollipop. 

...The U.S. military is not in Ukraine, although I suspect since March, US military advisors have been aiding the Ukrainian military on strategy....

Your suspicion is right on target, Boethius. Albeit, it was much sooner than March. At least you're willing to admit WE ARE meddling in another country's affairs in our mission to spread democracy in our world one nation at a time...

 

[fathertime]

Boe Slavyansk was destroyed by bombing. No-one at this stage knows how many civilians been killed. They were not klled by rebels, they were killed by bombing...Plus the fact that city was without water and some areas were without electricity....And the fact that humanitarian loads were not let through. Hospitals are no good in treating people without water, electricity or medicine or when there is a bomb falling into it. Or when maternity ward is being bombed, it does not help much. I know the youngest victim was 10 months. They destroyed water supply, schools, hospitals, residential areas. You know you do not do it to your own people. Remind me as I am not good with names, which member of  Ukrainian government promised to put Donbass' population (all population) through filtration camps and then have them relocated to other areas?

Why isn't the US demanding the leader be held accountable, like we do every other time?  Why isn't the USA threatening to impose a no fly zone?  Perhaps because 'we' think Poroshenko is going to play ball according to OUR rules...whereas Assad/Ghadafi and others told us to buzz off. 


 
As I see a round up of the stories of the day, we have had unpleasant words with China/Bahrain/Iran/Germany and Russia.  How the hell is it our business to be up the arse of all these places today? Meanwhile our derelict govt. refuses to address our southern border problem with 1000's of central american's are coming through and being released.  Meanwhile we prepare a little 'package' of sanctions ALONE against Russia since they aren't doing what we demand, perhaps we can put a bow on it. 


http://news.yahoo.com/bahrain-put-unacceptable-conditions-us-envoy-kerry-004944973.html;_ylt=AwrSyCNHx8VTexMAPljQtDMD


http://news.yahoo.com/us-preparing-unilateral-sanctions-russia-193329225--politics.html


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/15/us-china-usa-asean-idUSKBN0FK0CM20140715


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2014/07/iran-praises-talks-but-kerry-warns-gaps-2014715104216951790.html


http://news.yahoo.com/obama-speaks-merkel-spy-row-us-official-234533413.html;_ylt=AwrSyCVTy8VTBF8A.rTQtDMD


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

So Russia:

(a)  contrary to international law, and treaties to which it is an adherent, annexes a region after a dubious "referendum" in which one region had 123% turn out, notwithstanding the fact more than one third of the residents of the region boycotted the election;

(b)   starts a propaganda campaign broadcast to a foreign country, suggesting the new Ukrainian government is "crawling" with "fascists" who wish to "destroy" Russians;

(c)   allows fighters and sophisticated military equipment to cross its border, where terrorists shake down the local populace and use them as human shields;

and all of the above is the fault of the United States. 


I am fortunate to have had my eyes opened to the treachery of US hegemony.

Looks like this is an intellectually dishonest misstatement of the issue and it is also grandstanding. 


The US could have helped set the stage for all these things to happen by forcing Russia's hand, through meddling and trying to shrink their ability to counter our worldwide antics.     By you isolating the issues in items "A, B, and C" you are acting as if they were done in a vacuum.    What bologna!   




Our history speaks for itself regarding foreign interventions and all one has to do is look at the world to see the messes everywhere right now...but it has helped our companies prosper.   


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

Why isn't the US demanding the leader be held accountable, like we do every other time?  Why isn't the USA threatening to impose a no fly zone?  Perhaps because 'we' think Poroshenko is going to play ball according to OUR rules...whereas Assad/Ghadafi and others told us to buzz off. 
Fathertime!

That would be interventionism . . . . 

[Boethius]

Boe Slavyansk was destroyed by bombing. No-one at this stage knows how many civilians been killed. They were not klled by rebels, they were killed by bombing...Plus the fact that city was without water and some areas were without electricity....And the fact that humanitarian loads were not let through. Hospitals are no good in treating people without water, electricity or medicine or when there is a bomb falling into it. Or when maternity ward is being bombed, it does not help much. I know the youngest victim was 10 months. They destroyed water supply, schools, hospitals, residential areas. You know you do not do it to your own people. Remind me as I am not good with names, which member of  Ukrainian government promised to put Donbass' population (all population) through filtration camps and then have them relocated to other areas?

They were bombed by both.  The official statistic is 478 civilian deaths, to date.  Some of those are from natural causes.  As the UN has monitors reviewing what is happening, eventually, we will know the truth.


Ukraine has stated it will not use air strikes in Donetsk.


While I understand your position, do you believe any country would allow criminals to terrorize people, kidnap them for ransom, rob and shoot them, and proclaim they are an independent republic with no repercussions?  The issues here are first, the failure to act in the 2 months before the presidential election, and second, a powerful neighbour's interference and support of instability for its own internal purposes.  For those reasons, as much as each death is a tragedy, there is not much Ukraine can do, other than what it is doing.


BTW, an FSB staff agent was captured by Ukrainian forces.  The terrorists offered to exchange 15 political hostages for her. 

[Boethius]

In a statement on behalf of the Trilateral Contact Group (consisting of OSCE, Ukrainian, and Russian representatives) on Wednesday, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) blamed rebel fighters for the collapse of videoconference peace talks that were supposed to be held on Tuesday. The group's statement said that a "lack of willingness on the side of the separatists to engage in substantive talks on a mutually agreed ceasefire" was behind the cancellation.

The Trilateral Contact Group says that a ceasefire would need to include OSCE observation that the truce was being maintained, the implementation of effective border monitoring, the release of all hostages, and the start of inclusive dialogue.

Following an invitation from Moscow on Monday, OSCE observers were set to begin monitoring border crossings between Ukraine and Russia on Wednesday.

http://www.dw.de/osce-calls-out-ukraine-rebels-for-lack-of-engagement-in-peace-process/a-17789805?maca=en-rss-en-all-1573-rdf

This was reported as the US and EU readied further sanctions against Russia, announced today.

[southernX]

Looks like this is an intellectually dishonest misstatement of the issue and it is also grandstanding. 


The US could have helped set the stage for all these things to happen by forcing Russia's hand, through meddling and trying to shrink their ability to counter our worldwide antics.     By you isolating the issues in items "A, B, and C" you are acting as if they were done in a vacuum.    What bologna!   

Fathertime!

FT im rather curious here

if you doubt what botheius has posted can you explain exactly how the USA/EU is directly responsible for a  b & c above ?
SX

[Boethius]

“Russia’s actions against Ukraine prove to be an implementation of a well-planned geopolitical strategy of turning it into a ‘failed state’. The plan is based on applying innovative models of warfare – hybrid warfare and the ‘controlled chaos’ approach that are tailored to fit realities and unique features of former Soviet Union territories, the document says.

The strategy of controlled chaos reportedly includes:

The creation of puppet “state” structures;

-flooding the region with illegal weapons;
-using foreign paid mercenaries to destroy regional infrastructure and harass local population;
-weakening local economy and blocking state functions (e.g. law enforcement, justice, social welfare);
-forcing a refugee crisis;
-information warfare;
-introduction of Russian "peacekeeping forces"

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/europes-east/ukraine-submits-evidence-russian-covert-action-303529

It is a good article, with plenty of live examples.

[southernX]

botheius your link is a good summary of the russian support that has been ongoing into the east of ukraine for many months now

if putin was to call a cease to it , im sure the situation would be much more easily resolved than at present

SX

[fathertime]

FT im rather curious here

if you doubt what botheius has posted can you explain exactly how the USA/EU is directly responsible for a  b & c above ?
SX

Ok SX, lets round up the two posts and take a look.  Here they are:

So Russia:

(a)  contrary to international law, and treaties to which it is an adherent, annexes a region after a dubious "referendum" in which one region had 123% turn out, notwithstanding the fact more than one third of the residents of the region boycotted the election;

(b)   starts a propaganda campaign broadcast to a foreign country, suggesting the new Ukrainian government is "crawling" with "fascists" who wish to "destroy" Russians;

(c)   allows fighters and sophisticated military equipment to cross its border, where terrorists shake down the local populace and use them as human shields;

and all of the above is the fault of the United States. 


I am fortunate to have had my eyes opened to the treachery of US hegemony.

MY INITIAL RESPONSE: 

Looks like this is an intellectually dishonest misstatement of the issue and it is also grandstanding. 


The US could have helped set the stage for all these things to happen by forcing Russia's hand, through meddling and trying to shrink their ability to counter our worldwide antics.     By you isolating the issues in items "A, B, and C" you are acting as if they were done in a vacuum.    What bologna!   




Our history speaks for itself regarding foreign interventions and all one has to do is look at the world to see the messes everywhere right now...but it has helped our companies prosper.   


Fathertime!   

Lets put this specific post in context….My issue with Boethius’ post was the ridiculous way she framed it.   ASSUMING the events all occurred just the way she said, NOBODY was making the argument that it was really the US that did these SPECIFIC things, they would have obviously been done by Russians with the support of separatists…..BUT that doesn't mean that the USA wasn't at least in part responsible for events leading up to these things occurring…hence my statement about ‘these things happening in a vacuum’.

Obviously overall I have a different viewpoint about the whole situation, but in this particular post I felt she was being disingenuous in the manner in which she was presenting the case of those of us that don't agree with her viewpoint.

    She can state her viewpoint, but if she is going to frame other people's viewpoints dishonestly,then I will call that out if I see it...as I did in this case.       Do you see what I'm saying?




Fathertime!   

[southernX]

Do you see what I'm saying?

it is clear you have a different perspective on events, no probs with that , even though i disagree with you in some aspects of it

however  im still cant understand exactly why you think the us is responsible for the actions russia has taken on the ABC botheius posted,

russian government had many choices/options on how to react to ukraines maiden and change of gov etc  , it chose to invade and annexe crimea,  in so doing breaking many international laws etc

it chose to start a negative and mainly untrue media campaign against ukriane , even within ukraine ?
it had many other choices of how to respond to events in ukraine , but it chose these methods & strategys

it is allowing support and arms for seperatists /terrorists to be recruited and provided by its gov into a soveriegn country ,

again in specifics how is that the US/EU , or even NATOs  fault ?

they support the ukraine peoples right to determine their future , any support or response is a direct result of ukraine asking  for it ,
 russias underlying influence on the other hand has not been wanted and is still not wanted hence the maidan protest to start with

russia is choosing its response , which to many around the world is not justified and is illegal

SX 

[lordtiberius]

Nature teaches beasts to know their friends. (2.1.6)

Coriolanus

[fathertime]

it is clear you have a different perspective on events, no probs with that , even though i disagree with you in some aspects of it

however  im still cant understand exactly why you think the us is responsible for the actions russia has taken on the ABC botheius posted,

russian government had many choices/options on how to react to ukraines maiden and change of gov etc  , it chose to invade and annexe crimea,  in so doing breaking many international laws etc

it chose to start a negative and mainly untrue media campaign against ukriane , even within ukraine ?
it had many other choices of how to respond to events in ukraine , but it chose these methods & strategys

it is allowing support and arms for seperatists /terrorists to be recruited and provided by its gov into a soveriegn country ,

again in specifics how is that the US/EU , or even NATOs  fault ?

they support the ukraine peoples right to determine their future , any support or response is a direct result of ukraine asking  for it ,
 russias underlying influence on the other hand has not been wanted and is still not wanted hence the maidan protest to start with

russia is choosing its response , which to many around the world is not justified and is illegal

SX

Well SX, obviously we see things differently, but like you said no problem..
  I can still fully get why Russia took Crimea and have stated numerous times why.  I can also see that Russia is fomenting/enabling the separatists in  E. Ukraine…again I can see that they want these regions to have more autonomy as it will likely benefit them.  I've not been arguing that these are nice things to do…but I believe they have been put in a position by an ever encroaching NATO, and a belligerent and bellicose USA, and they are not going to permit their backyard to be overrun with peoples that could possibly obstruct their global military influence among other things.    If Russia doesn’t protect their own interests they will get run over….the USA has a ‘domesticated and approved’ way of getting their way, although much of the world is now seeing what we are doing for what it really is. Russia doesn’t have the resources to use the same means, so they do what they can by getting ‘physical’.    The BRICS is finally getting going too now, and although they have almost half the global population already they may find more interested members.  We(THE US) should be attending to our own issues instead of rallying half the world against us. 

Fathertime!  

[Anotherkiwi]

Well SX, obviously we see things differently, but like you said no problem..
  I can still fully get why Russia took Crimea and have stated numerous times why.  I can also see that Russia is fomenting/enabling the separatists in  E. Ukraine…again I can see that they want these regions to have more autonomy as it will likely benefit them.  I've not been arguing that these are nice things to do…but I believe they have been put in a position by an ever encroaching NATO, and a belligerent and bellicose USA, and they are not going to permit their backyard to be overrun with peoples that could possibly obstruct their global military influence among other things.    If Russia doesn’t protect their own interests they will get run over….the USA has a ‘domesticated and approved’ way of getting their way, although much of the world is now seeing what we are doing for what it really is. Russia doesn’t have the resources to use the same means, so they do what they can by getting ‘physical’.    The BRICS is finally getting going too now, and although they have almost half the global population already they may find more interested members.  We(THE US) should be attending to our own issues instead of rallying half the world against us. 

Fathertime!  

There is a big difference between what the USA may (or may not have done) in Ukraine, and what Russia has done and is currently doing.  The biggest is that Ukraine borders Russia, and Russia seems intent on destabilising that neighbour in so many different ways, with the ultimate goal of "federalisation" leading to some of those new federal states deciding to become part of Russia.  You can't argue with these conclusions, Fathertime, because Putin himself has been quoted as saying that's what he wants.


Whatever influence you think your country has in Ukraine, it pales into insignificance beside the prospect of a "sovereign country" (as Doll so aptly described it) being ripped apart at the whim of its overbearing neighbour.  The only equivalent that would apply to the USA would be if it decided to split Mexico apart in the same way (I can't see it trying anything with Canada, unless they try to nibble off Newfoundland as the equivalent of Crimea - but do people take their summer holidays there?).

[fathertime]

There is a big difference between what the USA may (or may not have done) in Ukraine, and what Russia has done and is currently doing.  The biggest is that Ukraine borders Russia, and Russia seems intent on destabilising that neighbour in so many different ways, with the ultimate goal of "federalisation" leading to some of those new federal states deciding to become part of Russia.  You can't argue with these conclusions, Fathertime, because Putin himself has been quoted as saying that's what he wants.

Well Kiwi I agree that Russia has been pushing for federalization but we would have to see the specifics of what federalization would entail in this case....it doesn't necessarily mean that a state can vote itself out of the country...but maybe.

Fathertime!   

[Ranetka]

They were bombed by both.  The official statistic is 478 civilian deaths, to date.  Some of those are from natural causes.  As the UN has monitors reviewing what is happening, eventually, we will know the truth.


Ukraine has stated it will not use air strikes in Donetsk.


While I understand your position, do you believe any country would allow criminals to terrorize people, kidnap them for ransom, rob and shoot them, and proclaim they are an independent republic with no repercussions?  The issues here are first, the failure to act in the 2 months before the presidential election, and second, a powerful neighbour's interference and support of instability for its own internal purposes.  For those reasons, as much as each death is a tragedy, there is not much Ukraine can do, other than what it is doing.


BTW, an FSB staff agent was captured by Ukrainian forces.  The terrorists offered to exchange 15 political hostages for her.

Rebels have tanks but not planes. Airbombs and missiles have been most damaging for civilian population.  Rebels make bases in built in areas, that's why built in areas are bombed. And that's why majority of civilian deaths are thanks to Kiev.  Forget official statistics (on both sides, they all lie). Read forums and blogs (from both sides), pay attention who posts what and when. Keep notes. Remember half of Azov (you know what Azov unit is?) is Right sector, another half is convicts got amnesty (conformed by Lyashko) they ARE robbing and torturing and killing. It's civil war and situation in Western Ukraine is no better for pro-Russian people that in Eastern Ukraine for pro-Kiev If it was just Ukrainian proper military things would have been better but there are also Azov etc.

[Ranetka]

Obviously read official sources as well. Just have a premise that they all lie. And do not bother reading news sources, you get all info quicker from "front" news.

[Ranetka]

Natural causes is also a big question. Sometime mid may I read on Slavyansk forum the hospital statistics was twice the "normal" rate of strokes and much higher than normal premature births...Stress...

[Ranetka]

They were bombed by both.  The official statistic is 478 civilian deaths, to date.  Some of those are from natural causes.  As the UN has monitors reviewing what is happening, eventually, we will know the truth.


Ukraine has stated it will not use air strikes in Donetsk.


While I understand your position, do you believe any country would allow criminals to terrorize people, kidnap them for ransom, rob and shoot them, and proclaim they are an independent republic with no repercussions?  The issues here are first, the failure to act in the 2 months before the presidential election, and second, a powerful neighbour's interference and support of instability for its own internal purposes.  For those reasons, as much as each death is a tragedy, there is not much Ukraine can do, other than what it is doing.


BTW, an FSB staff agent was captured by Ukrainian forces.  The terrorists offered to exchange 15 political hostages for her.

I do not think we ever going to see eye to eye. But I think killing their own people is expected from government who calling supposedly-their-own citizens sub-humans, kolorads, promising to put the population into filtration camps...and when I read Ukrainians forums referencing dead people as шашлычки, самка колорада, личинка колорада  frankly I no longer care , you think it started when Donbass declared indipendence to me it started when I saw the video of tied up Berkut policeman burning alive. And they laughed. How do you reconcile with that?

[Boethius]

Didn't Russia do the same, numerous times?

Killing any person is horrific, and cannot be justified. 

The Berkut were ruthless with protesters.  I don't justify the crowd's actions, but I understand them.


As for comments, I can read just as bad, and worse, on vk from Russians, and on Russian forums. 

However, your hatred is not justifiable.  Did these soldiers deserve to be burnt to death?


http://en.censor.net.ua/news/294208/four_burnt_bodies_of_soldiers_found_near_luhansk_airport

[Ranetka]

Didn't Russia do the same, numerous times?

Killing any person is horrific, and cannot be justified. 

The Berkut were ruthless with protesters.  I don't justify the crowd's actions, but I understand them.


As for comments, I can read just as bad, and worse, on vk from Russians, and on Russian forums. 

However, your hatred is not justifiable.  Did these soldiers deserve to be burnt to death?


http://en.censor.net.ua/news/294208/four_burnt_bodies_of_soldiers_found_near_luhansk_airport

This is a war, they are solders. (shrug). Since their vehicles aare burnt too, that's how they died probably - inside burning vehicles after they were shoot.

How many were burnt in Odessa? They were not solders. But then again you, an intelligent woman is ready to believe that a crowd of 200 men/women/children attacked a 1000+ football hooligans....

For you Bandera is a hero and Russia is evil, for me Banderovtsi made horrible ethnic cleansing, as far as I remember my nearly 70 years old Uncle always used Banderovets when he run off other swear words. it's the worst people for him - Banderovtsi. My hate? I heard enough Москали на ножи - you know Moskal is me....my relatives there are Moskals....it's Us to cut with knives...How will it stop?