Putin is No Hitler

[Boethius]

This is a war, they are solders. (shrug). Since their vehicles aare burnt too, that's how they died probably - inside burning vehicles after they were shoot. How many were burnt in Odessa? They were not solders. But then again you, an intelligent woman is ready to believe that a crowd of 200 men/women/children attacked a 1000+ football hooligans....For you Bandera is a hero and Russia is evil, for me Banderovtsi made horrible ethnic cleansing, as far as I remember my nearly 70 years old Uncle always used Banderovets when he run off other swear words. it's the worst people for him - Banderovtsi. My hate? I heard enough Москали на ножи - you know Moskal is me....my relatives there are Moskals....it's Us to cut with knives...How will it stop?

I have never claimed Bandera is a hero, nor do I believe that.  I don't villify him, though.  He did many ruthless things (ordered executions, that is why he was in a Polish prison when the war broke out). 

UPA did carry out ethnic cleansing in Volhyn, and you can search my posts where I have never denied this.  However, there is no proof that Bandera gave that order, or was involved.  He was in the Sachsenhausn concentration camp when they started.

So, please do not misrepresent what I post, or assume you know my thoughts.  You don't.

Do you know what the Bolsheviks did in Western Ukraine?  Do you know what the Red Army did, up until 1954 or so?  Do you know how many Western Ukrainians ended up in gulags or Siberian work camps because a relative had been taken as a slave labourer by the Nazis?   That is why the reference to "moskals".

As for Odesa, I read the accounts from all sides.  The Ukrainians there were not football hooligans, they were supporters of a different team, one from Odesa, the other from Kharkiv, which is not exactly the stomping grounds of those genetically anti Semitic "Banderites". 

The best account I read on the event was by the OSCE.  As they are neither Russian nor Ukrainian, their account was neutral and non inflammatory.

Many soldiers are boys and young men who were drafted.  I don't consider their lives more expendable than those of anyone else. 

[Ranetka]

Boethius,

I really do not want to discuss with you who's fault is it and who has done worse.

How do you think it will end?

[Boethius]

I thought the Ukrainian government would prevail.  However, the shooting down of the aircraft is a game changer.

[Faux Pas]

I thought the Ukrainian government would prevail.  However, the shooting down of this airline is a game changer.

The early returns point to possibly Putin's rabid dogs are getting out of his control. Kind of like Ukraine has the past year. I sincerely hope that is the case. If it is in fact a directive from the Kremlin to shoot a plane with a BUK missile even if it was a mistaken plane, the ramifications of what can transpire are not good

[The Natural]

The early returns point to possibly Putin's rabid dogs are getting out of his control. Kind of like Ukraine has the past year. I sincerely hope that is the case. If it is in fact a directive from the Kremlin to shoot a plane with a BUK missile even if it was a mistaken plane, the ramifications of what can transpire are not good

I highly doubt it was a Directive from Kreml to shoot Down the plane. That would be like shooting yourself in the foot With a machine gun. Who gains from this? Certainly not Russia. We see all over the western media that everybody assumes Russia is to blame, most think it's an error from the separatists using Russian missiles.

Whoever did this, it's unnacceptable and I hope the TRUTH comes out eventually, no matter what it is. But at this stage I think it's foolish to be soooo sure about the event. They all lie. Question is, who have the capabilities and objectiveness to do a thorough investigation? Personally I will rule out Ukraine, Russia and USA. Imagine putting John McCain in charge of that!!!

[Faux Pas]

I highly doubt it was a Directive from Kreml to shoot Down the plane. That would be like shooting yourself in the foot With a machine gun. Who gains from this? Certainly not Russia.

What makes you so sure? The evidence at this juncture points directly to the separatists who has been taking orders from the Kremlin. Putin's behavior has been very erratic back to and including the invasion of Crimea. Such an order would be par for the course at this point. Now, I'm not saying the Kremlin did in fact order it but, it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that they did.

We see all over the western media that everybody assumes Russia is to blame, most think it's an error from the separatists using Russian missiles.

Any way you slice it, Russia is to blame either directly or indirectly. "IF" the plane was taken down by the separatists Russia still shoulders the blame. The separatists are there in Ukraine and supplied by Russia. If Putin wasn't fomenting, financing and encouraging discord in the East, this likely would never have happened.

Whoever did this, it's unnacceptable and I hope the TRUTH comes out eventually, no matter what it is. But at this stage I think it's foolish to be soooo sure about the event. They all lie. Question is, who have the capabilities and objectiveness to do a thorough investigation? Personally I will rule out Ukraine, Russia and USA. Imagine putting John McCain in charge of that!!!

Agreed, they all lie but, one in the equation has a history of lying more and more recently than the other. Are you prepared for the truth? Nobody is soooo sure at this point but the bottom line is this, nobody in the region or the area had BUK other than the Russians and separatists. BUK is a sophisticated system. It's not a rocket launcher one just throws on the shoulder and pulls a trigger.

[The Natural]

What makes you so sure?

I thought I made it pretty Clear that nobody (me included) can be sure of anything at this point. Then you go on and speculate on what happened 

Are you prepared for the truth?

What's that supposed to mean? Are you implying (because I had the audacity to criticize the coup in Kiev) that I can only handle one form of truth and not the other?

[Gator]

I thought the Ukrainian government would prevail.  However, the shooting down of the aircraft is a game changer.

The downing of MH17 is definitely a game changer.  However, I believe it will garner more international support for Ukraine and thus help Ukraine's cause.

If there is an unimpeded, independent, comprehensive investigation, the world will know what happened and who was involved.  I say that even though TWA 800 gives me some concern (a good friend knows one of the eyewitnesses to that tragedy).  I very much doubt the investigation will support the separatists and  Russia.   Hence, it is even more likely that Ukraine will prevail, provided Putin does not do anything rash.


If the investigation points to Russia, would Russia admit culpability and compensate the families of the victims?  Will the international community, particularly Europe,  step up sanctions to the point of hurting Russia economically?  A slackening of Russia's economy will erode citizen support of Putin.  Would this cause Putin to make rash moves, such as invading Ukraine?

Hold on to your seats.

[Faux Pas]

I thought I made it pretty Clear that nobody (me included) can be sure of anything at this point. Then you go on and speculate on what happened 

Well let's get totally realistic shall we? Nobody can ever be sure of anything, ever, can they? Thus, we point to the evidence at hand and make the most logical conclusion conditioned by the supporting evidence. Even then, we can be wrong, mislead or fooled.

What's that supposed to mean? Are you implying (because I had the audacity to criticize the coup in Kiev) that I can only handle one form of truth and not the other?

I'm not implying anything. I call them like I see them. You have been on this board, one of Putin's most ardent supporters. The evidence at this point is pretty damming. Supply something to the contrary. It is Putin's actions directly or indirectly that have led to the downing of that civilian airplane. Those 295 deaths are on him. Even if  he didn't give the order. It is his actions and aggressions that caused the deaths of those 295 people.

Even if it is/was an accident, those 295 folks are still dead.

[GQBlues]

...Whoever did this, it's unnacceptable and I hope the TRUTH comes out eventually, no matter what it is. But at this stage I think it's foolish to be soooo sure about the event. They all lie....

There is a plausible reason to believe the rebels did, if not for the fact they announced shooting down a plane roughly in the same time and region. If so, pretty silly considering the sophistication of the weaponry. Moreover, flying at 31 miles away from the border at an altitude of 33,000 ft on cruising speed (600 MPH?) bearing hard southeast, how can anyone mistake this for a turbo-prop transport cargo plane?

There was an independent journalist at the crash scene yesterday that went to the crash site when the rebels were dispatched to check it. He reported a fairly gruesome scene and said even the rebels were horrified at what they saw. Long after the blast, he said there were still pieces of *things* coming down from the sky including body parts. 154 pounds of warhead exploding on a plane load of folks.

...Question is, who have the capabilities and objectiveness to do a thorough investigation? Personally I will rule out Ukraine, Russia and USA. Imagine putting John McCain in charge of that!!!

Unfortunately those are the only 3 military entities that have personnel, equipment, and ware that are/were in the area. Both US and Russian radar, spying/monitoring equipment which likely have the ability to trace and detect heat/movement signatures to plot origin point of this kind of an attack. They undoubtedly already had this info no more than an hour past that tragic hour yesterday. I would be surprised if neither have it.

Like I said, this IS a tragic consequence of this stupid and unnecessary conflict, but unfortunately such is always the case in proxy wars. EVERYONE have blood in their hands over this.

[GQBlues]

...I'm not implying anything. I call them like I see them. You have been on this board, one of Putin's most ardent supporters. The evidence at this point is pretty damming. Supply something to the contrary. It is Putin's actions directly or indirectly that have led to the downing of that civilian airplane. Those 295 deaths are on him. Even if  he didn't give the order. It is his actions and aggressions that caused the deaths of those 295 people.

Even if it is/was an accident, those 295 folks are still dead.

I can understand your position, but disagree. IMO, all these are consequences of the Kiev coup and the US intervention, as far as I'm concerned. We have no business meddling in and with Ukraine.

[The Natural]

I'm not implying anything. I call them like I see them. You have been on this board, one of Putin's most ardent supporters. The evidence at this point is pretty damming. Supply something to the contrary. It is Putin's actions directly or indirectly that have led to the downing of that civilian airplane. Those 295 deaths are on him. Even if  he didn't give the order. It is his actions and aggressions that caused the deaths of those 295 people.

Even if it is/was an accident, those 295 folks are still dead.

Well, there you have it, I was right in my assumption of what you really meant by suggesting I can't handle the truth.

It's been...what.... hours after the shootdown and  People already have more than enough evidence to put the blame?  I Guess like With the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. No more talk, we have the evidence. Now let's put boots on the ground and freedom-missiles in the air, right?
My point was exactly NOT to make bold statements of blame at such an early stage. Even Obama doesn't do it. Nobody should be surprised that the madman McCain does. There's a lot of rumours and speculation from both sides. Let's see an independent UN Group do a real investigation first.

[Boethius]

I can understand your position, but disagree. IMO, all these are consequences of the Kiev coup and the US intervention, as far as I'm concerned. We have no business meddling in and with Ukraine.

No, this is the consequence of terrorists being given advanced weaponry with some, but little, training.

[The Natural]

I can understand your position, but disagree. IMO, all these are consequences of the Kiev coup and the US intervention, as far as I'm concerned. We have no business meddling in and with Ukraine.

I agree. Seems history has taught the meddlers nothing, or worse, this is by design.

[Maxx2]

Well let's get totally realistic shall we? Nobody can ever be sure of anything, ever, can they? Thus, we point to the evidence at hand and make the most logical conclusion conditioned by the supporting evidence. Even then, we can be wrong, mislead or fooled.

I'm not implying anything. I call them like I see them. You have been on this board, one of Putin's most ardent supporters. The evidence at this point is pretty damming. Supply something to the contrary. It is Putin's actions directly or indirectly that have led to the downing of that civilian airplane. Those 295 deaths are on him. Even if  he didn't give the order. It is his actions and aggressions that caused the deaths of those 295 people.

Even if it is/was an accident, those 295 folks are still dead.

Then who is responsible for all the deaths of all those pro-Russians in Odessa that got burnt alive or shot trying to leave the building? You FP said they deserved what they got because they shouldn't have been there in the first place. I read that I was shocked.


My position is why take sides? This is why I am disappointed in Boethius and you. Anybody that looks should see both sides are wrong. Putin is a thug and got to the position he got by deception and murder. See the documentary "Assassination of Russia" to see his hand. Ditto for "our guys" (the US) with one false flag after another just like Putin tried to pull in Ryazan. Again why take sides with any of these gangsters?



So let me have it. I'm out of here.

[Faux Pas]

Well, there you have it, I was right in my assumption of what you really meant by suggesting I can't handle the truth.

I wasn't implying anything Roy. You and I both have earlier stated our beliefs and both had/have merit. Russia's actions in Eastern Ukraine have been covert and he used the denial of involvement in the face of evidence. He has been caught and has lost that now. You still defend those actions? Not just the downed plane but all of Putin's involvement in Ukraine?

It's been...what.... hours after the shootdown and  People already have more than enough evidence to put the blame?  I Guess like With the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. No more talk, we have the evidence. Now let's put boots on the ground and freedom-missiles in the air, right?

Bullshit. I haven't called for anything and Iraq is of no consequence in this matter. 289 innocent people are dead because Putin is playing invasion in Ukraine. We should just ignore this little factoid as "oh, he didn't really mean it"?

My point was exactly NOT to make bold statements of blame at such an early stage. Even Obama doesn't do it. Nobody should be surprised that the madman McCain does. There's a lot of rumours and speculation from both sides. Let's see an independent UN Group do a real investigation first.

Obama doesn't do anything, at all. Except hit the road for fundraisers. Roy, I stated the evidence points to the Russian supplied separatists. I haven't convicted anyone of anything. But, the fact remains a civilian airliner was shot out of the sky. The only ones in the region capable of doing so is the Russians or the Russian back separatists. I can understand your denial based on your previous statements. You're a smart man, now you have more evidence to weigh into your conclusion. It's against what you believed. I asked you for evidence, any evidence that might prove otherwise. You haven't posted it so I will assume that you don't have any.

For my part, you can leave out the UN from anything. It is an entity of it's own with it's own goals. Truth isn't one of them

[Faux Pas]

I can understand your position, but disagree. IMO, all these are consequences of the Kiev coup and the US intervention, as far as I'm concerned.

We have no business meddling in and with Ukraine.

Well here we completely agree. I suppose we disagree on the point that Russia does have business meddling in Ukraine?

[jone]

The Russian Times just posted a story stating that no heavy weapons have ever crossed the border between Ukraine and Russia (including BUK missiles).  While I will not give an opinion on that, given RT's penchant for hyperbole, don't you think that if Russia didn't already know that the separatists operating in Eastern Ukraine had fired the missiles, they would be painting a completely different picture?

Here are the two things coming from Russia right now:

1.  It is the host country's responsibility for any aircraft shot down on its territory.

2.  No heavy weapons have come across the border.

In other words, what they are confirming is that the separatists are responsible for the downing of the plane, but attempting to say that Russia had nothing to do with it.

This will not play well in Amsterdam (or Berlin, or London, or Paris).

[GQBlues]

Why are there two threads of the same discussion?

******

I agree. Seems history has taught the meddlers nothing, or worse, this is by design.

I won't be surprised to see the same ending in this as it did Yugoslavia...Just history repeating itself.

TFCrew posted a link of that the story about the fate of Korean Airlines 007 shot down by the Soviet in 1983. Interesting revelation on that article. Unfortunately of course, and again - it had to be *years after*.

"As far as the United States was concerned, it was a case of wanton slaughter in the skies. The electronic evidence was convincing: the Soviets had tracked Flight 007 a full 2 ½ hours before the Su-15 fired, a lag that would have permitted the decision to be reviewed at the highest levels in Moscow. The fighter pilot trailed his target for 14 minutes before the attack—and radioed full recognition that his missiles were locked on a civilian commercial aircraft. The fatal shot itself appeared to be no accident: according to reported transcripts published in Japan, every move was carefully orchestrated by ground controllers.

The pilot was ordered to take aim at the target. He replied that the had taken aim (sic). The controller ordered him to fire. Pilot: “The target is destroyed. I am breaking off attack.”

>>Years later, CNN explained that tensions over U.S. spying in the area played a role:<<

"As it neared Soviet airspace, Flight 007 was being tracked at military installations. Soviet fighter pilots and their commanders knew they were being watched, too. U.S. spy planes patrolling the region created a constant state of tension, they said later.

American surveillance aircraft included Boeing RC-135s, the military version of a Boeing 707, which looked very much like a civilian airliner.

Years after the incident, the Soviet pilot who pulled the trigger that day said he noticed the double-decker configuration of the plane, and told CNN he had “wondered if it was a civilian aircraft.” But regardless, he “fulfilled his mission” to destroy the intruder.”

The cold war certainly brought about a lot of tragic events in our world. Why do we (US) persist bringing it all back again? I do not understand. Ukraine had always been Russia's business. Just leave at that. The planned intent behind the Kiev coup proved futile and failed. It's wishful thinking but we should just move on and pull our military out of Ukraine. Ukraine have enough Oligarch in-country with their silly little *sanctioned* armies to kill their own.

We have no business there. Never has despite the gas discoveries. That should be EU's business.

This is a very tragic event/consequence. Regardless of the genesis of this conflict or who pulled the trigger. Everyone is guilty of accessorizing this tragedy.

[Faux Pas]

Then who is responsible for all the deaths of all those pro-Russians in Odessa that got burnt alive or shot trying to leave the building? You FP said they deserved what they got because they shouldn't have been there in the first place. I read that I was shocked.

Really? Maybe you could provide a quote where I stated that?

My position is why take sides? This is why I am disappointed in Boethius and you. Anybody that looks should see both sides are wrong. Putin is a thug and got to the position he got by deception and murder. See the documentary "Assassination of Russia" to see his hand. Ditto for "our guys" (the US) with one false flag after another just like Putin tried to pull in Ryazan. Again why take sides with any of these gangsters?



So let me have it. I'm out of here.

You're welcome to revel in your disappointment all you wish Maxx. No sweat off my brow. I haven't taken a side. However, it's been blatantly obvious to me that Russia has been the aggressor in Ukraine ever since Yanko hit the bricks. The our guys remark is pure fantasy on your part. "Our" guys are not in Ukraine. We are not amassed at the border violating Ukraine sovereignty on a daily basis and Our guys are not engaged in military action and taking Ukrainian territory. Blame Maiden if you need to, makes no difference. U.S. has no business in Ukraine but neither does Russia

[jone]

Dunno if anyone ever read the Clancy book, Executive Orders.  In it, Clancy follows a terrorist event whereby a plane hits a joint session of Congress, wiping out almost all of the legislative, executive and judicial bodies of the government.  (This was written before 9/11.)

The reason I bring this up is that the next day, all facts were pretty well known about who and what had happened (in the book).   The reason that these facts weren't divulged to the public is that it was felt that no one would believe them so soon after the event.

I don't even need to speculate, I know the following:  The US knows who did it.  Ukraine knows who did it.  Russia knows who did it.  And I am pretty sure that Malaysia and the Netherlands know who did it.

This is a great tragedy.  Not in political terms, but in personal terms.  Unfortunately it is a political event and the human element gets lost.

[Boethius]

I agree. Seems history has taught the meddlers nothing, or worse, this is by design.

Your posts have always indicated you are a conspiracy theorist.  However, Euromaidan was never directed by the U.S.   Even it is were, let's look at the history of the United States, and the history of Russia, and then you tell me, if we had lifespans of 300 years, which country you'd have preferred your children to grow up in.

[The Natural]

Obama doesn't do anything, at all. Except hit the road for fundraisers. Roy, I stated the evidence points to the Russian supplied separatists. I haven't convicted anyone of anything. But, the fact remains a civilian airliner was shot out of the sky. The only ones in the region capable of doing so is the Russians or the Russian back separatists. I can understand your denial based on your previous statements. You're a smart man, now you have more evidence to weigh into your conclusion. It's against what you believed. I asked you for evidence, any evidence that might prove otherwise. You haven't posted it so I will assume that you don't have any.

My denials? For the Third time I say that I don't know who did it because all kids of allegations and rumours are floating around. This in my view always happens shortly after a big event like this. I choose to wait and see what cooler heads finds out. Now I just read that OSSE is in the area of the shootdown to investigate. There are Three in the area capable of doing this, by the way. You left out the USA sponsored government in Kiev. Now, notice how I did not Write that they DID it. But the're also in the limelight as they have several of those rocketlaunchers in the area.

So do I have any evidence. No. Neither do you mr. Pas. Just bits and pieces, true or untrue, that supports Your political view.

[Boethius]

My position is why take sides? This is why I am disappointed in Boethius and you. Anybody that looks should see both sides are wrong. Putin is a thug and got to the position he got by deception and murder. See the documentary "Assassination of Russia" to see his hand. Ditto for "our guys" (the US) with one false flag after another just like Putin tried to pull in Ryazan. Again why take sides with any of these gangsters?


So let me have it. I'm out of here.

Why take sides?  I am convinced Euromaidan was instigated by Ukrainian oligarchs.   However, it did catch fire.  There was no need for Berkut to attack protesters, who were, for the most part, peaceful.

Once an election was held, how Yanukovych lost power was irrelevant.  He was no longer the president, and the new president and the Rada deserve the chance to run the country.

Maxx, read about Ukraine's history.  There has never been a time Russia has not interfered, and it has always been successful in ensuring Ukraine was, at best, a vassal state (the Hetmanate), and at worst, a slave (the USSR).  Ukrainians have been denied their language for centuries, they have been starved to death, used as the first cannon fodder in wars up to WWII (its population, BTW, comprised about half the total war losses of the USSR), and told they are inferior to Russians linguistically, culturally, and socially.  Then you come back and tell me why I, as an ethnic Ukrainian, should be neutral when I see that same pattern occurring again.

[GQBlues]

Well here we completely agree. I suppose we disagree on the point that Russia does have business meddling in Ukraine?

Good, bad or indifference FP, Ukraine and Russia have a history. We don't. Whatever that history is/was and whatever it is for them today...are theirs to handle on their own. Both those countries are well known to everyone to be corrupt and seriously lacking of the rules of law - from top to bottom. Why the heck would we want to rationalize, much less meddle, anything in those two regions?

Besides, global conflicts, as we are all led to believe, is supposed to be a UN business anyway. The Somalian tragedy should've told us the United Nations IS NOT, and SHOULD NEVER ever mean - United States of America.

All the stupid posturing, chest-thumping sanctions is freaking ridiculous. Let Ukraine have what it wants - whatever it is. It's their business to do so and choose. Even if that choice includes having to deal with Russia on their own.

It is NONE of our business., IMHO.