Putin is No Hitler

[I/O]

the "hero" "rebels" have been stealing from the victims of the crashed plane.  What does that tell you about how much reverence they have for the dead?

And..........wandering aimlessly around, staggering drunk, firing shots into the air (and goodness knows where else) to hinder investigators accessing the scene - they're a charming lot...!!

[Boethius]

Here is the interrogation of a Ukrainian pilot shot down by the terrorists.  The interrogator is from Russia, based on his accent. 


http://censor.net.ua/cnPlayer.swf?vf=150714_let

[calmissile]

Here is the interrogation of a Ukrainian pilot shot down by the terrorists.  The interrogator is from Russia, based on his accent. 


http://censor.net.ua/cnPlayer.swf?vf=150714_let

It would have been interesting to see a trasnscript in English.

Which pilot was this?   I recall a Ukraine fighter jet shot down by a Russian MIG29 recently, but the pilot was able to land his plane in Ukraine.  Is this the same pilot?  If so, he must have landed in terrorist controlled area.

[AC]

They acted swiftly because neo-nazis planned to go down to Crimea and start hell on earth for the folks living there.  My Russian family is there now, safe and sound which they would not have been if Crimea also were left to the Kievan junta which hates Russians like Arabs hate Jews. The inhabitants there also wanted it, all the Russian history, military importance, etc. also play in. But they cry for the people in eastern Ukraine, I can tell you. No tears of the civilian casualties in Kiev or the west either, that only reports Ukrainian soldier casualties. In other words (Newspeak) a fair and balanced view, as always. Propaganda is something only the Russians engange in, right?

It's complete hyperbole to claim that there were neo-Nazi's headed to Crimea to start trouble prior to it's annexation.  It is more accurate to say that ethnic Ukrainians previously living in Crimea in peace have been discriminated against.  Ukrainian priests have been badly mistreated as well as former teachers of the Ukrainian language who had lived and worked there.  Tatars have gone missing and their bodies turned up later showing signs of torture prior to their murder.

Where is the evidence of a large group of neo-Nazi's operating in Ukraine, other than the pro-Russian criminals in the East?

[Boethius]

Another interesting article on the aircraft downing -


http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118765/putins-lockerbie-why-russias-propaganda-machine-high-gear

[Gator]

Just to illustrate double standards of our american friends and see long-term outlook of the latest tragedy with shot airplane  I'll remind couple of events:

Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988.....The United States did not apologize to Iran.

Belvis, you failed to include the fact that the US Navy immediately admitted to the downing of the Iranian passenger jet.  The US explained that they mistook the passenger jet for a type of military jet flown by the Iranians.   Also, the Navy had been attacked previously in the locale by both Iraq and Iran. 

You also failed to mention that the US and Iran reached an agreement in the International Court of Justice whereby the US paid a large compensation amount to the families of the victims. 

As for the US role in the Ukraine conflict,  we say US want to fight Russia to the last Ukrainian.

As your joke implies, America will not engage Russia in a military conflict.  It is obvious to me that the US Government wants peace, not greater hostilities.   

Until the downing of MH17 the conflict in Ukraine was not a major news story in America.  Polls showed that very few Americans believed the US should be doing more in Ukraine.  Domestic issues such as immigration had received the vast majority of news coverage.

MH17 has become the Number One story because of the tragedy and because Russia's denials and stonewalling have made it a mystery, and news programs do love a mystery.  It is even bigger than the Israeli military invasion of Gaza (unless one watches Al Jazeera News).

[Gator]

What an internet whack job.

I believe he gets his news from his wife and RT.  Shadow seems to be the same.  Even the devil deserves an advocate in a fair trail, otherwise the trial (i. e., discussion) would be slanted.

[Gator]

Here is the interrogation of a Ukrainian pilot shot down by the terrorists.  The interrogator is from Russia, based on his accent. 

You use the term terrorist, and so do the Kiev spokes people.  Shadow disagrees with the term terrorist and I see his point.  Is not the term "rebel" or "insurgent" or "separatists" more applicable.  I can see that the separatists may use terrorism as a tactic, yet their campaign seems broader. 

[BillyB]

Belvis, you failed to include the fact that the US Navy immediately admitted to the downing of the Iranian passenger jet.  The US explained that they mistook the passenger jet for a type of military jet flown by the Iranians.   Also, the Navy had been attacked previously in the locale by both Iraq and Iran. 

You also failed to mention that the US and Iran reached an agreement in the International Court of Justice whereby the US paid a large compensation amount to the families of the victims. 

 America took responsibility for the downed jet and paid the victims families handsomely. Russia will not take ownership of the current tragedy although they are hiding evidence including the missile launcher on their side of the border, and hampering the investigation. When the Soviets downed a Korean airliner decades ago, they did not compensate the victims families. Belvis is correct there is a double standard.

[Gator]

Another interesting article on the aircraft downing -


http://www.newrepublic.com/article/118765/putins-lockerbie-why-russias-propaganda-machine-high-gear

One huge difference.  Qaddafi gave the order to down a passenger jet and set up a clandestine group to accomplish the mission.  I can not believe that Putin or even the leadership of the separatists wanted to down a passenger jet.   One act was intentional, the other a regrettable and tragic mistake.   

OTOH, Russia's and the separatists' refusal to disclose any information about  the mistake  much less any complicity, and then divert blame to Ukraine place them far down on the statesmanship totem pole, one step above Qaddafi. 

[BillyB]

I can not believe that Putin or even the leadership of the separatists wanted to down a passenger jet.
 

I don't believe they shot down the jet intentionally either but when Putin puts arms in the hands of fools, foolish mistakes will happen and Putin needs to man up and accept responsibility for that. As of now, he would look foolish if he changed his story. Don't expect him to accept responsibility. Russia has never supplied the rebels with any arms according to Putin.

[The Natural]

 Quote from: jone on Today at 12:35:31 AM <blockquote>What an internet whack job.
</blockquote> 

I believe he gets his news from his wife and RT.  Shadow seems to be the same.  Even the devil deserves an advocate in a fair trail, otherwise the trial (i. e., discussion) would be slanted.

Well Gator, my wife watch Russian news on TV and I watch Norwegian. We discuss what we hear and just the other day I said to her that it seems that we are presented news from different worlds. She tells me stories of what the Kiev junta has done and I know that it goes both ways. I'm just interested in finding the truth if it is at all possible. If I'm perceived as being solely pro-Russian on here, it's because the vast majority of posters here represent the other side very richly. It can be very provoking for some, but it's interesting to read the replies from the anti-Putin crowd. Some disagree and write why. Others, like jone, resort to labelling and name-calling.
 
The media here as elsewhere in the west is very one-sided, but once in a while one finds things that are not completely black and white. I find the demonization of Putin and Russia very suspicious.
 
I very seldom watch RT on TV because of practical reasons. Have them on FB which I sometimes read. Also watch TV news of western outlets and read articles, interviews of a few Americans that I find thrustworthy.
 
Where do you get your information from Gator?

[sleepycat]

I hope for his own safety Shadow keeps the airing of his pro-Kremlin views to the RWD board only. In the current emotionally-charged climate in his country, he could get physically assaulted if he tries to be a Putin apologist in public.

[Shadow]

I don't believe they shot down the jet intentionally either but when Putin puts arms in the hands of fools, foolish mistakes will happen and Putin needs to man up and accept responsibility for that. As of now, he would look foolish if he changed his story. Don't expect him to accept responsibility. Russia has never supplied the rebels with any arms according to Putin.

And probably he is correct when taken to the letter. Which does not mean that Russia could not have prevented the rebels getting hold of these arms.

[Shadow]

I hope for his own safety Shadow keeps the airing of his pro-Kremlin views to the RWD board only. In the current emotionally-charged climate in his country, he could get physically assaulted if he tries to be a Putin apologist in public.

Outside the RWD board there is a much wider acceptance of my views.
As I mentioned most people in my country are not in any way blaming Putin or Russia, but simply want an investigation to show what happened.
Unfortunately some countries are so high on adrenaline due to the propaganda they are fed, that they seem to be ready to wage war over this.

[Belvis]

America took responsibility for the downed jet and paid the victims families handsomely. Russia will not take ownership of the current tragedy although they are hiding evidence including the missile launcher on their side of the border, and hampering the investigation. When the Soviets downed a Korean airliner decades ago, they did not compensate the victims families. Belvis is correct there is a double standard.

You have said that any issue can be settled with money. No, can't.
When Russia move into Ukraine she will take the full responsibility what's going there. Russia supports rebels and bear part of responsibility for shot airplane, if evidence emerges rebels done it. Technically both sides could do it, Ukrainian army deploy BUKs in the range of shot flight.  I hope the investigation produces conclusive result.
Russia will share this responsibility with Ukraine who actually sacrifices the airplane to get some advantage in civil war.

[I/O]

I hope the investigation produces conclusive result.

It won't - it may produce a place for the world to "hang its hat". Unless of course someone claims responsibility and I notice only one of the three relevant groups (Kremlin, Rebels or UA Govt forces) have left that door open (albeit only slightly).
 
 
 

[sleepycat]

Outside the RWD board there is a much wider acceptance of my views.

Are you talking about the view amongst the cannabis affected customers of the 'coffee houses'?

As I mentioned most people in my country are not in any way blaming Putin or Russia,

The number of losses for Australia for this plane crash is about 20% of the number of losses for your country, yet for the first time I can remember all sides of Australian politics are calling for blood (even the left wing Greens wants Putin to be barred from the G20 meeting in Brisbane). I guess the Dutch must be a much more tolerant race than us Aussies...

[The Natural]

The number of losses for Australia for this plane crash is about 20% of the number of losses for your country, yet for the first time I can remember all sides of Australian politics are calling for blood (even the left wing Greens wants Putin to be barred from the G20 meeting in Brisbane). I guess the Dutch must be a much more tolerant race than us Aussies...

The number one lapdog of Washington is England. Second are the english speaking countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. These have a pact of not spying on each other. Not so with Germany as we all know, despite the fact that Merkel have done what she can to please Washington, except, so far, to go as far as greatly damage the economy of her own country.
 
You see, European countries have to consider several aspects of this conflict (sometimes even the truth, one can hope). People live in the area and are not so quick as certain others to call for blood.

[Anotherkiwi]

When Russia move into Ukraine she will take the full responsibility what's going there.

This will never happen - Fathertime said so, so it must be true!

Russia supports rebels and bear part of responsibility for shot airplane, if evidence emerges rebels done it.

Thank you, Belvis, for admitting at least that much.  However, we will have to wait and see whether or not your leaders admit that much.

Technically both sides could do it, Ukrainian army deploy BUKs in the range of shot flight.  I hope the investigation produces conclusive result.

The Ukrainian army may have BUKs available, but they have no need to deploy them, let alone use them, because the rebels have no aircraft.

Russia will share this responsibility with Ukraine who actually sacrifices the airplane to get some advantage in civil war.

That is utter nonsense, and you know it.  This plane, together with at least four other airliners, was using a clearly defined international air route which is quite some distance away from the closed airspace above Crimea and the extreme south-east of Ukraine.  As I understand it, they were also flying above the minimum altitude specified in current Notices to Airmen regarding Ukrainian airspace: an altitude nearly twice that able to be reached by shoulder-launched missiles.  Who in their right mind would have expected anyone in this conflict to use anti-aircraft missiles with a vertical range of 15 miles, when any possible target aircraft (transport or helicopter) would not have been flying any higher than 10 or 12,000 feet because it's so close to the Russian border?

[sleepycat]

 
You see, European countries have to consider several aspects of this conflict (sometimes even the truth, one can hope). People live in the area and are not so quick as certain others to call for blood.

I guess we are lucky that Australia only has to consider one single aspect, being the mass murder of our citizens. Not being a slave to Russian natural gas also helps as we have plenty of gas ourselves.

[The Natural]

 Quote from: Belvis on Today at 11:21:14 AM <blockquote>When Russia move into Ukraine she will take the full responsibility what's going there. </blockquote> 

This will never happen - Fathertime said so, so it must be true!

Yeah, fathertime has a good head on his shoulders. Where is he now by the way, I wonder.

[Anotherkiwi]

The number one lapdog of Washington is England. Second are the english speaking countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. These have a pact of not spying on each other. Not so with Germany as we all know, despite the fact that Merkel have done what she can to please Washington, except, so far, to go as far as greatly damage the economy of her own country.
 
You see, European countries have to consider several aspects of this conflict (sometimes even the truth, one can hope). People live in the area and are not so quick as certain others to call for blood.

How many Norwegians were on that flight?  None.  If there were, Natural, your country might also be fairly strident in its request for answers.

[The Natural]

I guess we are lucky that Australia only has to consider one single aspect, being the mass murder of our citizens. Not being a slave to Russian natural gas also helps as we have plenty of gas ourselves.

You may not be "a slave to Russian natural gas", but your leaders answers to Washington. You can consider yourself a proud member of The Empire, even if it's on the outskirts.
 
Ah, by the way, it's not only a question of gas deliveries but I guess it's reduced to that in the media to make things simpler for Joe Average. There's trade, Russia being the EU's third largest trade partner. Germany alone has 300 000 jobs depending on relations with Russia. Those in the EU doing trade with Russia protest the sanctions. USA and Australia couldn't care less that their carelessness in shouting for blood will lead to economic hardships for a EU which is already struggling.

[The Natural]

How many Norwegians were on that flight?  None.  If there were, Natural, your country might also be fairly strident in its request for answers.

None. We all request answers, including me. It doesn't matter what the Norwegian authorities position is because it's always the same position as the EU and sometimes the US or a combination and when convenient, use the UN to settle things. Might as well outsource the Foreign department to Brussels, hehe