Putin is No Hitler

[sleepycat]

 USA and Australia couldn't care less that their carelessness in shouting for blood will lead to economic hardships for a EU which is already struggling.

Well I guess if you prioritise $ over human lives, then there is nothing more I can say really...

[Shadow]

Well I guess if you prioritise $ over human lives, then there is nothing more I can say really...

And you believe that in a possible war no human lives will be lost?
Nothing more to say...

[Shadow]

Are you talking about the view amongst the cannabis affected customers of the 'coffee houses'?

You might want to be careful with insults. It shows lack of arguments.
While I have knowledge of the full process, I am in no way involved in those circles. Most of them would probably shout about Putler and want war.

[I/O]

USA and Australia couldn't care less that their carelessness in shouting for blood will lead to economic hardships for a EU which is already struggling.

Natural: In reality you're more right than you realise - I'm probably only on the fringes (or even further out) of those arguing cupability rests with only one person but what I can see is what so many others from the "Lap Dog" group (you really hit a low point there), as you wish to refer to them, can also see - there is a slightly more sophisticated and maybe slightly less expansionist repeat of the 1930's going on right now and Europe is reacting exactly the same way - the "Lap Dog" group spilled a lot of blood which we had no need to do on European soil to help drag the sorry arse kissers out of the mire then and we certainly don't want a repeat.
 
Shadow: If I can offer some balance (I've always thought you a respecter of balance) - only the fools would advocate war, most (if I am reading correctly) seem to be suggesting that if Russia is responsible for the current tragedy, either directly or vicariously (I tend to think the latter is more likely), then some pretty clear lines need to be drawn while the opportunity exists.

[Faux Pas]

Outside the RWD board there is a much wider acceptance of my views.
As I mentioned most people in my country are not in any way blaming Putin or Russia, but simply want an investigation to show what happened.
Unfortunately some countries are so high on adrenaline due to the propaganda they are fed, that they seem to be ready to wage war over this.

Good luck with that

[Shadow]

 
Shadow: If I can offer some balance (I've always thought you a respecter of balance) - only the fools would advocate war, most (if I am reading correctly) seem to be suggesting that if Russia is responsible for the current tragedy, either directly or vicariously (I tend to think the latter is more likely), then some pretty clear lines need to be drawn while the opportunity exists.

Lines were drawn in Syria, nothing happened.
If a blame game continues it will do nothing to solve the situation that caused this to happen.
And that would be the only positive result that could come out of this.
As much as the supporters of Kiev have been trying to pose this as a minor conflict caused by a few rogue rebels paid by Russia, reality on the ground is very different. It is a civil war that has already caused over 7000 people to die. For the people there 300 is a number that died in a single day before, reason why they may not be reacting as shocked as the rest of the world.

The EU and the government in Kiev are equally responsible as Russia is for this tragedy. All were refusing to move from their point, and all were supporting the fighting rather than working towards a solution.
To say that only fools are advocating war is to say there are a lot of fools around in that region.

[I/O]

To say that only fools are advocating war is to say there are a lot of fools around in that region.

I have long (much longer than the current conflict) been convinced of that - grieve me though it does to say it...

[I/O]

Lines were drawn in Syria

Not correct - it's just another ongoing war by proxy.

[jone]

I think that many of the forum are not 'High on Adrenaline' as you might say Shadow.  From a Western perspective, here is what I believe many think (including myself). 

The surprising success of the Ukrainian forces in retaking Sloviansk and the roll-up of the separatist forces into the two strongholds surprised the Russians.  Operationally, Russia hopes to keep the conflict ongoing for as long as possible - for as long as the conflict is ongoing, Ukraine is a destabilized country and Crimea is not even in the discussion.  Operationally, the only option available to the Russians was to offer heavy equipment, most likely including the BUK missile systems used to shoot down the airliner.

With the heavy equipment, the separatist forces have had a mitigating effect on the Ukrainian forces, in one instance even retaking land that previously was captured by the Ukrainian forces.

Russia can no longer supply the separatists with the heavy weapons as all eyes are now on both parties.  This lack of heavy equipment will have a draw down effect (and possibly even win the conflict for Ukraine.)  Strategically it is a disaster for Russia.

[lonedrake]

The EU and the government in Kiev are equally responsible as Russia is for this tragedy

Really? Somehow you know what orders or wishes the Russia government gave to the rebels? It is entirely possible that those who shot down the plane are current Russian soldiers. Talk about making judgements before the all the facts are known.(not that we will ever know)




 

[Boethius]

You use the term terrorist, and so do the Kiev spokes people.  Shadow disagrees with the term terrorist and I see his point.  Is not the term "rebel" or "insurgent" or "separatists" more applicable.  I can see that the separatists may use terrorism as a tactic, yet their campaign seems broader.

Because they employ terror.  They have kidnapped, tortured, and even murdered local politicians and activists who held differing points of view, they rob locals at gunpoint, demand they house them in their apartments, have kidnapped priests who had the audacity to pray for peace in public, and embedded themselves among the civilian population so as to maximize civilian casualties.  Those are just a few things, and all of these have been independently verified, as I do not assume everything published is accurate.

[Boethius]

Quote from: jone on Today at 12:35:31 AM <blockquote>What an internet whack job.
</blockquote>   
Well Gator, my wife watch Russian news on TV and I watch Norwegian. We discuss what we hear and just the other day I said to her that it seems that we are presented news from different worlds. She tells me stories of what the Kiev junta has done and I know that it goes both ways. I'm just interested in finding the truth if it is at all possible. If I'm perceived as being solely pro-Russian on here, it's because the vast majority of posters here represent the other side very richly. It can be very provoking for some, but it's interesting to read the replies from the anti-Putin crowd. Some disagree and write why. Others, like jone, resort to labelling and name-calling.
 
The media here as elsewhere in the west is very one-sided, but once in a while one finds things that are not completely black and white. I find the demonization of Putin and Russia very suspicious.
 
I very seldom watch RT on TV because of practical reasons. Have them on FB which I sometimes read. Also watch TV news of western outlets and read articles, interviews of a few Americans that I find thrustworthy.
 
Where do you get your information from Gator?

Russian news disseminates a lot of propaganda.  LifeNews, one of the most popular Russian sources, has a reporter embedded with the terrorists.  They reported that the terrorists had shot down a Ukrainian plane moments after MH17 had been shot down.  That report quickly disappeared from their screens.  I linked another story, reported on Russia's most popular television station, alleging the Ukrainian military crucified a child in Slovyansk.  The description of the town was inaccurate.  I could go on, and on.  Russia has utilized propaganda to an extreme degree in most of its reporting, and some stations are the Kremlin arm.  It also pays individuals to post on Western forums and in comments sections of newspapers.  Russian nationalists also do so voluntarily.


Now, I am not suggesting Ukraine also does not engage in propaganda.  However, Ukrainian media is not government controlled, and a variety of opinions can be found in their newspapers.

[Boethius]

The number one lapdog of Washington is England. Second are the english speaking countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada. These have a pact of not spying on each other. Not so with Germany as we all know, despite the fact that Merkel have done what she can to please Washington, except, so far, to go as far as greatly damage the economy of her own country.

The lapdog statement is, once again, pardon the unladlylike expression, B.S. 

England has not followed the US position in the current conflict.  At least, not until terrorists blew a plane full of innocents out of the sky, and then refused to give authorities access to the site.

The US and Canada do work closely on numerous issues, which is normal for countries who share a border, the world's longest undefended border.  Can you imagine what a mess the US would be if their northern border was like their southern border?  Nevertheless, the US does, in fact, spy on Canada.  If I know this, you can be certain Ottawa does.

New Zealand has a very unique foreign policy.  I can't say much about Australia, as I don't know much on their foreign policy.  But I would hazard a guess China, and Asia in general, are more important in that part of the world than is the US.

All you have down is suggested, erroneously, I will add, that English speaking countries "fall into line" behind the US.  Nope.  All countries have their own interests, and their own interests prevail in foreign policy decisions.  Canada, for example, did not support the U.S. invasion of Iraq.  The U.S. asked Canada to send troops to Iraq, and Canada refused.  That did cause tensions between Ottawa and Washington.

Now, did you come up with your lapdog theory, did you read about it in Norwegian media, or did it come from the Russian press?

[Shadow]

I think that many of the forum are not 'High on Adrenaline' as you might say Shadow.  From a Western perspective, here is what I believe many think (including myself). 

The surprising success of the Ukrainian forces in retaking Sloviansk and the roll-up of the separatist forces into the two strongholds surprised the Russians.  Operationally, Russia hopes to keep the conflict ongoing for as long as possible - for as long as the conflict is ongoing, Ukraine is a destabilized country and Crimea is not even in the discussion.  Operationally, the only option available to the Russians was to offer heavy equipment, most likely including the BUK missile systems used to shoot down the airliner.

With the heavy equipment, the separatist forces have had a mitigating effect on the Ukrainian forces, in one instance even retaking land that previously was captured by the Ukrainian forces.

Russia can no longer supply the separatists with the heavy weapons as all eyes are now on both parties.  This lack of heavy equipment will have a draw down effect (and possibly even win the conflict for Ukraine.)  Strategically it is a disaster for Russia.

Only if you believe that Russia is behind this.
As for the loss of Slavyansk, I knew that would happen a week before from the inside souces.

[Shadow]

Because they employ terror.  They have kidnapped, tortured, and even murdered local politicians and activists who held differing points of view, they rob locals at gunpoint, demand they house them in their apartments, have kidnapped priests who had the audacity to pray for peace in public, and embedded themselves among the civilian population so as to maximize civilian casualties.  Those are just a few things, and all of these have been independently verified, as I do not assume everything published is accurate.

Atrocities are from both sides. Do you call the people supporting the Kiev regime terrorists?

[Shadow]

Really? Somehow you know what orders or wishes the Russia government gave to the rebels? It is entirely possible that those who shot down the plane are current Russian soldiers. Talk about making judgements before the all the facts are known.(not that we will ever know)

And you know *if* they gave orders?

[Shadow]

Now, I am not suggesting Ukraine also does not engage in propaganda.  However, Ukrainian media is not government controlled, and a variety of opinions can be found in their newspapers.

That is B.S. as any media supporting the separatists have been closed, and only within the Donbass region there are now new stations created, who unfortunately display nothing but propaganda.

[Boethius]

Atrocities are from both sides. Do you call the people supporting the Kiev regime terrorists?

Kyiv has not kidnapped and tortured pro separatist politicians.  It has not kidnapped and beaten priests.  It has not demanded locals house their soldiers.   It has not abducted hundreds who oppose them.

Pro Kyiv militias did torture prisoners in Mariupol, but, those were not government forces, and those incidents are very limited, possibly because pro Kyiv militias are not particularly active. 

[Boethius]

That is B.S. as any media supporting the separatists have been closed, and only within the Donbass region there are now new stations created, who unfortunately display nothing but propaganda.

Given Kyiv does not control the region, how, exactly, have they managed to close the media?  Russian propaganda, which is full of disinformation, is still widely available.


As for propaganda from Kyiv, it merely counters the Russian propaganda that has been on the airwaves since the beginning of the new year.

[Shadow]

Kyiv has not kidnapped and tortured pro separatist politicians.  It has not kidnapped and beaten priests.  It has not demanded locals house their soldiers.   It has not abducted hundreds who oppose them.

Pro Kyiv militias did torture prisoners in Mariupol, but, those were not government forces, and those incidents are very limited, possibly because pro Kyiv militias are not particularly active. 

BS

[Shadow]

Given Kyiv does not control the region, how, exactly, have they managed to close the media?  Russian propaganda, which is full of disinformation, is still widely available.


As for propaganda from Kyiv, it merely counters the Russian propaganda that has been on the airwaves since the beginning of the new year.

Kyiv does not control the Kyiv area?

[Belvis]

The Ukrainian army may have BUKs available, but they have no need to deploy them, let alone use them, because the rebels have no aircraft.

Deployment of BUKs in the conflict zone is a fact. See 0:53


Rebels have no  aircraft, but they claim they have. There is an obsession among Ukrainian military that russian fighters are shooting down their bombers. They also pretend that russian army is going to invade at any moment.

Who in their right mind would have expected anyone in this conflict to use anti-aircraft missiles with a vertical range of 15 miles, when any possible target aircraft (transport or helicopter) would not have been flying any higher than 10 or 12,000 feet because it's so close to the Russian border?

I don't understand why transport plane could not fly high to avoid anti-aircraft missiles. Rebels already shot down two transports. They have no good technical means to control airspace, they just try to shot any flying object over head. Rebels announced they seized BUK but ukrainian govenment decided to ignore this threat for airplanes in the war zone.

[Belvis]

Kyiv has not kidnapped and tortured pro separatist politicians.  It has not kidnapped and beaten priests.  It has not demanded locals house their soldiers.   It has not abducted hundreds who oppose them.

Yeah, Kyiv just killed hundreds of locals with bombing and arrested hundreds of citizens accusing them in support of separatists.

[Boethius]

BS

Please provide the proof.  No Russian news sources.

[Boethius]

Yeah, Kyiv just killed hundreds of locals with bombing and arrested hundreds of citizens accusing them in support of separatists.

An arrest is not the same as being tortured, is it?  How many priests has Kyiv kidnapped and tortured?

As for killing locals, bad things happen in wars.  If Russian mercenaries and Russian supplied equipment was not being sent to thugs, those civilians would not be dead.