Putin is No Hitler

[Boethius]

On the morning of 27 May, Hanna was sitting in her flat in eastern Ukrainian city of Donetsk, when there was a knock on the door. As her boyfriend Feodor lifted the latch, seven armed men wearing balaclavas and camouflaged fatigues barged through. They said they were from the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR), the pro-Russian separatist group which had recently seized power in the city.

This was the start of a terrifying six-day ordeal for the 30-year-old pro-Ukrainian activist. She had been involved in demonstrations providing medical help and first aid to protesters injured in clashes.

As the gunmen searched Hanna’s flat, she knew she was in trouble when they found a Ukrainian flag and pro-Kyiv leaflets. She and Feodor were marched down the stairs, blind-folded and bundled into a waiting car. They were taken to the Department for Crime Control for questioning.
Hanna describes how, held in a small basement, a middle aged man led the interrogation. She was accused of being a member of a far right group. They looked for tattoos of the numbers 38 or 39 associated with fascist groups

“There were crazy assumptions… the situation was dreadful. How can a person can be held for groundless accusations? It’s like the world was inside out.”

Hanna says that she was questioned about the EuroMaydan protests, about her participation and asked for details of journalists and civil society activists. The consequences of refusing to cooperate were dire.

“They said ‘you are going to tell us everything – unless you do this you are not going to be freed. And even if you do, you are not necessarily getting out from here’.”

Small, slightly built and quietly spoken, Hanna nervously recounted her story to us in a shabby medical storeroom on the ground floor of the local hospital in Kyiv. She fled to the city after her release and now helps out distributing medical supplies and helping others escaping the violence in eastern Ukraine. The shelves are stacked with medical supplies - drugs and bandages – all donated to help those, like her, arriving with injuries from torture suffered at the hands of armed groups in eastern Ukraine.

As we asked what happened to her, she looks to the floor with a sense of disbelief. She told us that after half an hour of questioning, her interrogator turned to violence.

“My face was smashed – he punched me in the face with his fist, he was trying to beat me everywhere, I was covering myself with my hands… I was huddled in the corner, curled up in a ball with my hands around my knees. He was angry that I was trying to protect myself. He went out and came back with a knife.”

Hanna showed us the scars on her neck, arms and legs where she was sliced with the blade: there is a stab wound in her knee, her right index finger is still heavily bandaged in a plastic splint. She describes how, as she was trying to protect herself, the blade sliced off the skin of her finger, “peeling it like an orange”.

“I was in shock, so I didn’t feel any pain, but you look at these cuts and you think that it’s not you. It was sick. Your own countrymen interrogating you with such cruelty. I was lost, I was so worried, I thought it was the end… I thought I might be killed… At the end of the interrogation [he said] “Pray now – I’m going to kill you”, and then he slit [the back of] my neck with the knife.”

Not only did Hanna have to endure the agony of the violent beating, but she says her interrogator was intent on humiliating her too, trying to crush her spirit. He made her write a pro-Russian slogan on the wall, in her own blood.

“He said: write with your blood on the wall ‘I love Donbass’, and if you can’t do this, if you run out of blood, I will shoot you. So I had this open wound with skin flapping off, I took the blood from the wound and wrote with my left hand on the wall… When someone points a gun at you and says I’m going to kill you – and there’s nothing you can do – you think it’s going to happen.”

Hanna says her torturous ordeal stopped following an order from higher up the chain of command. She was held for a further six days before being sent to the city of Dnipropetrovsk as part of a “prisoner exchange”. Prior to leaving she was allowed to call her parents.

“I wanted just to be back home, just to get back to life as normal and to imagine that this was just a nightmare… I was very upset because I hadn’t seen my family. They let us call, so I rang them and told them that I was alive, and that I was leaving…. Obviously I wanted to go home, but I couldn’t.”

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/he-said-pray-now-i-m-going-kill-you-and-then-he-slit-my-neck-knife-2014-07-11

[Boethius]

The skin across Sasha’s forehead and around his eyes is slightly yellow and there is a recent scab on his temple. He is healing well.

Ten days before our meeting, the 19-year-old was barely recognizable: the skin on his face stretched tight, swollen and bruised. Abducted and tortured, Sasha believes he is lucky to be alive.

After the city of Luhansk in eastern Ukraine came under control of separatist armed groups in April 2014, he was an obvious target.

Sasha was part of a “self-defence team” which came together to protect pro-Ukrainian activists during clashes with anti-Kyiv counter-protesters in Luhansk’s streets. There were hardly any police officers present, and those who were there did nothing to protect the demonstrators.

He proudly shows us a photo on his mobile phone of a young man wearing a balaclava on the “frontline” of the protests. “That’s me,” he boasts.

This is undoubtedly the reason he was targeted.

Sasha believes another member of the self-defence group turned him in. He called Sasha, saying he had just returned from Kyiv and had some news he needed to discuss. Sasha agreed to meet outside the block of flats where he lived, at around 8pm that evening. But when he arrived, his friend was not there. Instead, a group of armed men leapt out from parked cars, shooting in the air and yelling at Sasha to lie on the ground.

“First of all I tried to run away, it was a shock,” he says. “I didn’t understand what was happening and I didn’t know who these people were. I started to run but they shot near my legs. I lay on the ground because there was no-where to run. Then they started to hit me in the head with guns. They kicked and punched me, cuffed me and took me to the car.”

Some of the men searched Sasha’s flat, while he remained in the car where he was repeatedly punched and kicked until they returned. From there he was blindfolded and taken to the Ukrainian Security Service building, which the armed group had taken over. In a room on the second floor, he was questioned about his role in the protests. His captors demanded the addresses of other activists and details about the Ukrainian military. They even accused him of being in the pay of America.

“There were a lot of people, first of all they started to punch me. They punched me in the face… on my arms and legs. They made no secret of it; they told me that they were going to kill me. After half hour, 40 minutes – you stop feeling the pain. I started to lose myself, I lost consciousness,” he tells us.

Sasha says when he passed out he was dumped in a basement. Every time he regained consciousness, he was taken upstairs for questioning again. Each time, the severity of the torture increased.

He describes how he was beaten with anything they could find, including a chair, flayed with plastic hoses and choked. He describes how they attached cables to his wrists and electrocuted him. Then he shows us a deep scab on his inner thigh. There is a hole the size of a fingertip.

“They took the cigarettes, they were stubbing cigarettes in my leg, and then [they] stubbed another cigarette in that hole... How can do this to other people? It’s not normal,” he implores as he points to the healing wound.

Sasha says he was tortured repeatedly for 24 hours, and taken to the second floor room around a dozen times. Finally he was dumped again in the basement.

“I was lying in the basement when the door opened and one guy put a gun to my head and said to go straight to the corridor – and don’t say anything. While I was walking through the corridor, the armed people who were there, they told me ‘goodbye – they are going to kill you’,” he says.

“I thought only one [thing]: I’m dying for nothing. I’m not dying like a hero of Ukraine, I’m not dying for something I did – I’m dying for nothing.”

But they didn’t shoot Sasha. Through the family’s network of friends his father made contact with his abductors. Within three hours he had to raise US$60,000 to save his son.

Sasha was driven to a disused building in a park. He was told to sit on a window ledge and not to move or he would be shot by a sniper. It was there that his father found him. He eased his son into the car and drove immediately to the railway station. There he put Sasha, still wearing his blood-stained clothes, into a compartment on a train bound for Kyiv and said goodbye.

Sasha now shares a room with his mother on the outskirts of the capital in a run-down apartment block. He is desperate to find work, not only to pay the rent, but to pay back the family and friends who raised his ransom.

“Now I’m living in another city. I lost everything, I lost my flat, I lost my car, every single thing I had. I have to find a job, all I have is my passport in my pocket. I need money to pay for this flat and I need to pay money to the people in Luhansk who gave money to my family. Sixty thousand dollars!” he says with an air of desperation.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/they-made-no-secret-it-they-were-going-kill-me-2014-07-11

[Shadow]

If your object is to exchange stories about atrocities I am sure that I can win.
However as I feel most of these stories are useful for nothing but propaganda, I have not posted them here.

Just say the word and I will start.

[Boethius]

Go ahead.  There is a full report by AI, but it is unavailable currently.


Please ensure your stories are from an independent source, such as AI, and that they outline the atrocities of the current government.  Not militias.

[Boethius]

From Amnesty International's press release (redacted):


“With hundreds abducted over the last three months, the time has come to take stock of what has happened, and stop this abhorrent ongoing practice,” said Denis Krivosheev, Amnesty International’s Deputy Director of Europe and Central Asia.

“The bulk of the abductions are being perpetrated by armed separatists, with the victims often subjected to stomach-turning beatings and torture. There is also evidence of a smaller number of abuses by pro-Kyiv forces.”

There are no comprehensive or reliable figures on the number of abductions, but the Ukrainian Ministry of Interior has reported nearly 500 cases between April and June 2014. The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission for Ukraine has recorded 222 cases of abduction in the last three months.

Amnesty International also met with various ad-hoc self-help groups which have been collating details on the escalating number of abductions. The research team has been provided with a list of more than 100 civilians who have been held captive. Allegations of torture have been made in the majority of cases.

Abductions have taken place across eastern Ukraine, in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions. Those targeted include not only police, the military and local officials, but also journalists, politicians, activists, members of electoral commissions and businesspeople.

“Now that pro-Kyiv forces are re-establishing control over Slavyansk, Kramatorsk and various other places in eastern Ukraine new captives are being released almost daily with an increasing number of disturbing cases emerging. It is time that these are meticulously documented with perpetrators brought to justice with victims awarded compensation,” said Denis Krivosheev.

While the vast majority of allegations of abduction and torture are levelled against separatist pro-Russian groups, pro-Kyiv forces, including self-defence groups, have also been implicated in the ill-treatment of captives.

Amnesty International’s research team travelled from Kyiv to the south-eastern sea port of Mariupol which has “changed hands” twice in the last two months.

On 13 June Ukrainian forces took back control of the city from an armed group calling itself the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR).

One local government official in Mariupol, who wished to remain anonymous, told Amnesty International how they heard a captive separatist fighter wailing in pain at the hands of pro-Kyiv forces who were seemingly trying to extract information about the separatists.

In a separate case, a 16-year-old boy Vladislav Aleksandrovich was abducted after he posted video footage of earlier law enforcement operations in Mariupol on 25 June 2014.

In a video published after his release on 27 June, Vladislav can be seen sitting behind a masked man in a camouflaged uniform. The man has a hand on Vladislav’s head and is threatening him and “all others” who put Ukraine’s unity in danger with reprisals.

In a subsequent video interview, Vladislav claims that he was tortured, hit with rifle butts in his back, punched and forced to write a “statement to the people of Ukraine”, and shout pro-Ukrainian nationalist slogans.

“In Mariupol police and military were nowhere to be seen during our visit. There was a complete vacuum of authority and security, with fear of reprisals, abduction and torture permeating amongst the people,” said Denis Krivosheev.

“It is reprehensible that we are seeing an escalation in abduction and torture in Ukraine. All those engaged in this armed conflict must immediately and unconditionally release any captives who are still being held unlawfully, and ensure that until their release they are protected from torture and other ill-treatment.”

Amnesty International is calling on the Ukrainian government to create a single and regularly updated register of incidents of reported abductions, and thoroughly and impartially investigate every allegation of abusive use of force, ill-treatment and torture.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/ukraine-mounting-evidence-abduction-and-torture-2014-07-11

[Gator]

As much as the supporters of Kiev have been trying to pose this as a minor conflict caused by a few rogue rebels paid by Russia, reality on the ground is very different. It is a civil war that has already caused over 7000 people to die.

If the support is indeed widespread, the pro-Russians in SE Ukraine are rebels or separatists or insurgents or guerillas, not terrorists, albeit the practice of terror may be one part of their tactics. 

An important question I have not seen answered:  What percentage of the local citizens support the movement to separate from Ukraine and join Russia?

[Gator]

For the people there 300 is a number that died in a single day before, reason why they may not be reacting as shocked as the rest of the world.

Huge difference.  The 300 were not local civilians.  They were from countries not involved in the conflict.

[Boethius]

If the support is indeed widespread, the pro-Russians in SE Ukraine are rebels or separatists or insurgents, not terrorists, albeit the practice of terror may be one part of their tactics.

There is not "widespread support" for the terrorists.  At best, it is 50%.

From an acquaintance in Luhansk:

The rebels kidnap and demand ransoms from business owners.  The streets are not safe to walk as robbery at gunpoint is common.  We are not safe anywhere.

[Gator]

The EU and the government in Kiev are equally responsible as Russia is for this tragedy. All were refusing to move from their point, and all were supporting the fighting rather than working towards a solution.
To say that only fools are advocating war is to say there are a lot of fools around in that region.

I must be missing something.  What type of dialogue do you suggest a country should have with guerillas wanting to steal a large part of the country's land?  In the case of SE Ukraine, who would be a reasonable central person to represent the guerilla movement in such a dialogue?  Putin, I assume.   

[Boethius]

Kyiv does not control the Kyiv area?

Media in Kyiv is not government controlled.

[Gator]

As I mentioned most people in my country are not in any way blaming Putin or Russia, but simply want an investigation to show what happened.

Yes, an investigation is important.   I met you when you were in Florida.  You impressed me as a reasonable man.  I have Dutch friends.  They impress me as reasonable people.

IMO a reasonable man should be able to deduce a working theory on what happened based on the information already available and given the current state of affairs. 

What probability do you assign to the theory that separatists brought down the plane?    The second theory that Russia is complicit?

Unfortunately some countries are so high on adrenaline due to the propaganda they are fed, that they seem to be ready to wage war over this.

I don't believe my news sources are propaganda.  BTW, when a story breaks I usually follow CNN because they have more resources in the field.  As information starts to come in, I will watch various news programs, particularly those with balanced panels of experts.   

[Gator]

Shadow,

Your views surprise me.   I have always admired the EU for having some noble goals and attempting to incorporate such in how it conducted business.    When working with clients with facilities in Europe, I thought Europe was a leader with the ISO standards.  I was particularly impressed by EU's CSR policy, that enterprises were responsible for their impacts on society.

Russia is an enterprise.   Because Russia is so key to EU's economy it seems that EU is turning a blind eye to Russia's malfeasance.    It seems that the charge that Europe is a "slave of Russian gas" is  credible. 

As Americans we have relatively little dealings with Russia.  We have the freedom of calling a spade a spade. 

[The Natural]

Now, did you come up with your lapdog theory, did you read about it in Norwegian media, or did it come from the Russian press?

Neither.

For every rule, there are exceptions. Some countries, like Norway, Place a great deal of emphasis to the UN in Foreign matters of this sort. If the UN can't decide anything, it's Next either EU and/or the US. England doesn't fit into the EU really, as far as Foreign policy. Washington hates the UN because Washington believes THEY are the real UN. England prefers to follow Washington over the EU, I can't see it any other way. Is it any Wonder that strong forces over there want to leave the EU.

Personally I think the best instrument we have are the UN. But for obvious reasons that institution can't very often agree on serious matter like WARs and sanctions. That's when the lapdogs most often jump. Now, I'm sure you can dig up examples when they didn't. But as I said, every rule have it's exceptions. Just like With real puppets 

[BillyB]

1)You have said that any issue can be settled with money. No, can't.

2)Russia supports rebels and bear part of responsibility for shot airplane, if evidence emerges rebels done it.

3)Russia will share this responsibility with Ukraine who actually sacrifices the airplane to get some advantage in civil war.

1) True but something is better than nothing to ease people's pain and is says a lot about America will pay for its mistakes. The Soviet Union has never compensated the victims families of that Korean airline. Putin can change that if he cares.


2) Putin has denied supporting the rebels. It's important the evidence isn't found otherwise he'd be shown a liar and the world will apply more sanctions. He has lied about his troops being in Crimea. Your government has a high level of corruption and lie to the public/world more often than other governments. Putin depends on a people to believe those lies to gather support. No evidence will be found at the crash scene that ties Putin of this. Any damning evidence such as missile fragments and serial numbers will be removed.


3) If Ukraine gets caught sacrificing civilian aircraft, it would hurt them much more than help if they get away with it. Exactly what assistance is Ukraine getting now to beat the rebels? Additional sanctions on Russia doesn't count since Putin denies having any influence on the rebels.

[The Natural]

An important question I have not seen answered:  What percentage of the local citizens support the movement to separate from Ukraine and join Russia?

That is actually a very good question and would be interesting to know.
However, I wouldn't take Boethius' 50% at face value even though her speculation is somewhat presented as fact.

My wife said when they had a referendum there, more than 90% voted for more autonomy.

[BillyB]

That is actually a very good question and would be interesting to know.
However, I wouldn't take Boethius' 50% at face value even though her speculation is thinly veiled as fact.

Ukraine owns the land, period. If your children rebels and claims their rooms as their own, is it a valid claim? You bought the house, you own it all. There are citizens right here in America that doesn't like their government in the city, county, state, and federal, and want to secede. They have the freedom to leave but they don't have the right to take the land with them.


I didn't see a majority of east Ukrainians or Crimeans picking up weapons against their government. The previous governments in charge were very corrupt but they seem willing to give the current president a chance to move the country in the right direction.

[The Natural]

Ukraine owns the land, period.

You mean the US backed junta who will Ensure Ukrainians get austerity forever to pay back those IMF loans? And who would like to do some ethnic cleansing of Russians in Ukraine, whereever they can find them. Remember Odessa?

[Gator]

My wife said when they had a referendum there, more than 90% voted for more autonomy.

Based on what I read, the autonomy election was not democratic.

[The Natural]

Based on what I read, the autonomy election was not democratic.

Well, then we can't get anywhere, can we? Our side don't trust Your Sources and Your side don't trust Our. And the People at the top want to throw out one side of all dialogue and impose strict sanctions. In the Words of Gene Hackman: "War is imminent". Where are those damn cooler heads when you need them? Maybe it will be better once the summer is over.

[BillyB]

You mean the US backed junta who will Ensure Ukrainians get austerity forever to pay back those IMF loans? And who would like to do some ethnic cleansing of Russians in Ukraine, whereever they can find them. Remember Odessa?

America and the EU values Russia more than Ukraine for economic benefit. Your theory it about getting more money in our pockets doesn't fly. America promotes democracy around the world. It's not a big secret. Russia promotes their influence around the world too. Do you deny that Yanukovych was Putin's puppet? Small countries will alway be influenced by larger countries. That will never go away so nations live accordingly. If one doesn't support their friends in this world, they won't have any.


Ukraine's economy was bad and the government was corrupt. They need to move in a different direction and most Ukrainians want that regardless if you think America brainwashed them into thinking democracy is better. What country borders Russia, been influenced by Russia and is extremely successful in any way? I can only think of Communist China but their being successful economically isn't due to the Communism Stalin brought them, it's because of America. Unless Russia changes their ways, their influence on anybody is bad.

[Muzh]

I'm just interested in finding the truth if it is at all possible.
 

Just like you found all the truth relating to vaccines for children?


LMAO


Please, say no more.

[The Natural]

Just like you found all the truth relating to vaccines for children?


LMAO


Please, say no more.

Oh, take Your laughter and piss off!

[Muzh]

Oh, take Your laughter and piss off!

You want the truth? You can't handle the truth.


 

[jone]

When things are all said and done, no matter what we say here or any other group says, Russia will state to its people that the Ukrainians shot down the flight.  The government will lie to their own people as they do constantly these days.   The great majority of the population will believe their government.  The rest of the world will move on, but the stigma of the evil empire will carry the stench with it.  The beloved Russia that I have spent much time in I will no longer even know. 

Americans will be vilified in Russia as they are daily.  Russians think a lot more about people in the West than we ever do about Russia or their government's machinations.  To us, Russia will simply be a country on the other side of the world where we are hated, because, for the past six years, beginning with the NGO persecution to 'Americans shouldn't have our orphans because they abuse them' to the government telling its population that everything bad in the world comes from America.

My only thoughts are sadness for all of the friends I'm going to miss.  As for Putin, he has gone from a respected world leader who hosted the Olympics to a water cooler joke faster than anyone in history.

[calmissile]

It is interesting to step back and look at the World View of what is happening and the likely affects that the current war against Ukraine will have on the future of Europe.  The information exchanges about the minute daily details of the war are interesting, but not nearly as important as what the future brings for Europe.   Some things to think about.....

1.  Ukraine and Crimea were living in peace prior to Putin's intervention and active military participation.  Had Putin not intervened, Ukraine could concentrate on it's goals of eliminating corruption, rebuilding the country, bringing more personal freedom, liberty, and economic benefits to it's people.

2.  Putin's stated objective to rebuild the Russian Empire (USSR) has been demonstrated for quite some time, even before his invasion and acquisition of Crimea.  He is merely continuing his long term stated objectives and will not stop at Ukraine.

3.  Putin's strategy is brilliant for several reasons.  He waited until his adversaries were weak politically (USA - UN - NATO) and militarily (Ukraine) before making his moves.  Even more brilliant, was to get much of Europe under his economic control with energy dependence on Russia.  In addition, the UK  came under his strong influence due to the banking community in London deciding that the Russian money they hold and the profits from it are more important than lending assistance to Ukraine.  Absolutely brilliant!  Not a shot fired, and the UK, France, Germany are under his indirect control.

4.  Russia's desire to control much of the world (again) is not going to stop with Ukraine and Crimea.  The rest of Europe should be thinking about the future, not just a little country they abandoned when they needed their help to fight off Russian expansionism.

5.  Ukraine and Crimea are the tipping point for the rest of Europe.  Either the bully is stopped here and driven back into isolation, or parts of Europe will become the next targets and get picked off one by one just like Ukraine/Crimea.  In some respects, Europe will deserve what they get.  Failing to respond to an expansionist dictator will determine their own future.

6.  IMO, Europe should have developed their own energy resources and foreign supplies.  As soon as Russia demonstrated it's desire to expand it's territory and invade sovereign nations, Europe should have divested itself of Russian economic influences.  If you sleep with the devil, don't be surprised if you wake up in hell some day!

The future of Europe and possibly the rest of the world is not dependent on the silly little arguing about whether a black box is found or who shot who in what building.  The future of peace in the world is dependent on how soon the Russian's are pushed back into isolation and the threat is removed!  It would appear that even if Russia's expansionist objectives were to be publicly denounced tomorrow, there is good reason to believe that during a relative peace period they would be back to the same world domination objectives.  Whether it is the will of the Russian people, or just the Kremlin is yet to be determined.  The popularity of Putin rising so quickly when he invaded Crimea, makes me suspicious of what the Russian people really want.  No doubt, it is a culture I do not fully understand.