Putin is No Hitler

[The Natural]

No, not taking a shot at you at all. Just pointing out the obvious. You already stated yourself that your reasoning is most certainly influenced by your wife so how am I taking a shot at you? You guys are so quick to take offense. Its amazing really. I have no dog in this game as my girl is from Belarus. But when you start to accuse people of bias opinions, I will call you out easily.

Hey, don't try to downplay what you were saying. You're an American so I'll give you some leeway, but still I expect a tough guy like you to not take everything as black and white and understand that influence does not mean the same as dictate. Do you think that all I've been writing on here was With my wife at my side, dictating what to Write?

I didn't accuse anyone, I just agreed With fathertime.

You Call me out. HAHAHAHA. Again, tough guy. Who are you, by the way? Tell us about yourself and how you arrived at this juncture, to Call a guy like myself out easily.

[The Natural]

Actually, with statements like this:



Have you lived in Ukraine and partaken with them to make this broad statement; usually spewed by the Kremlin's Propaganda machine AKA Russia Today?


FYI, I do not hate Russians nor Norwegians, nor Ukrainians nor any other -ians. However, I do despise the thugs and goons who prey on the weaker. And not to mention ignorants who can't think for themselves.

Muzh,

You've been stalking my posts all since I wrote that Your reply to Shadow (who lost so many countrymen and women) were improper because you were rolling on the floor, laughing.

I understand that offended you and you have more than made up for it since.

Now, get off my back old man. You're of no interest for me.

[Muzh]

Muzh,

You've been stalking my posts all since I wrote that Your reply to Shadow (who lost so many countrymen and women) were improper because you were rolling on the floor, laughing.

I understand that offended you and you have more than made up for it since.

Now, get off my back old man. You're of no interest for me.

First, stop the self-adulation. It's not you.


Second, I gave you the benefit of the doubt because English is not your first language (nor Shadow's for that matter) so I can understand why you were so confused with the acronyms and emoticons.


Third, I am as aghast as you are that Shadow is still supporting those the circumstantial evidence is pointing the finger at.


Finally, I tend to respond to stupid statements so don't take it personally, old man. 

[Boethius]

GQ, of course you are biased.  You believe the US was behind the removal of Yanukovych, which is far fetched.  You have stated Yanukovych was removed unconstitutionally.  He wasn't.  Those are your biases.

[Hammer2722]

However, I do despise the thugs and goons who prey on the weaker. And not to mention ignorants' who can't think for themselves.

 

[Boethius]

Of course she is. I always thought she was Canadian until she said she is Ukrainian a little while back. Seems to me many Ukrainians rather hate all Russian. Can understand a certain reluctance towards them if they have traditionally been looked Down upon by the Russians, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to demonize them now that they are in Control of the state apparatus. If she wants, she can tell us what her feelings are in this.

It is untrue that all Ukrainians hate Russians.  Many Ukrainians are of mixed ancestry, given the history of the region.

My husband has Russian blood, so no, I don't hate Russians.

There is no demonization of Russians by the current government.  There are a few radicals in Svoboda, but even among them, not all of them hate Russians, and I suggest their extreme nationalism is manipulation.  Their leader is a former Komsomol leader, with a specialty in nationalism. 

The desire to turn to the EU, rather than Russia, was not because of a hatred of Russians.  Most Ukrainians in Central Ukraine, where most of the protesters came from, will have some Russian ancestors.  Most of them speak Russian daily.  This was about the desire to remove corruption.  Russia is almost as corrupt as Ukraine, and more authoritarian.  History has demonstrated that living under Russian rule has not been a net positive for Ukrainians. 

I believe Euromaidan was started, and funded, by oligarchs trying to regain power.  But at some point, it moved beyond that.  Events overtook what was trying to be achieved. 

The only "fascists" in the current Ukrainian government are Svoboda members, and they hold few Rada seats than they did before the coup.  They hold 3 of 20 cabinet positions.  So, they are a decided minority in the Ukrainian government.  The current Rada is composed of the members elected before Yanukovych left office.  Consequently, all those broadcasts emanating from Russia, calling the current government a "fascist junta" bent on restricting the use of Russian are fairy tales aimed at creating fear and hatred.  Evidently, it worked.

[fathertime]

It is untrue that all Ukrainians hate Russians.  Many Ukrainians are of mixed ancestry, given the history of the region.

 

Once again you are responding to something that wasn't said...where did The Natural say that ALL Ukrainians hate Russians? 

 However, I do despise the thugs and goons who prey on the weaker. And not to mention ignorants who can't think for themselves.

That is a tired old expression that doesn't apply.  What you do 'despise'  people who look at the information and wind up with a different conclusion then you...that is just too bad, people can draw different conclusions and still be thinking...it would take a guy who can't think to think otherwise....


Fathertime!   

[The Natural]

It is untrue that all Ukrainians hate Russians.  Many Ukrainians are of mixed ancestry, given the history of the region.

My husband has Russian blood, so no, I don't hate Russians.

There is no demonization of Russians by the current government.  There are a few radicals in Svoboda, but even among them, not all of them hate Russians, and I suggest their extreme nationalism is manipulation.  Their leader is a former Komsomol leader, with a specialty in nationalism. 

The desire to turn to the EU, rather than Russia, was not because of a hatred of Russians.  Most Ukrainians in Central Ukraine, where most of the protesters came from, will have some Russian ancestors.  Most of them speak Russian daily.  This was about the desire to remove corruption.  Russia is almost as corrupt as Ukraine, and more authoritarian.  History has demonstrated that living under Russian rule has not been a net positive for Ukrainians. 

I believe Euromaidan was started, and funded, by oligarchs trying to regain power.  But at some point, it moved beyond that.  Events overtook what was trying to be achieved. 

The only "fascists" in the current Ukrainian government are Svoboda members, and they hold few Rada seats than they did before the coup.  They hold 3 of 20 cabinet positions.  So, they are a decided minority in the Ukrainian government.  The current Rada is composed of the members elected before Yanukovych left office.  Consequently, all those broadcasts emanating from Russia, calling the current government a "fascist junta" bent on restricting the use of Russian are fairy tales aimed at creating fear and hatred.  Evidently, it worked.

Thank you Bo. Although we don't agree on everything, between the two of us we mostly keep it civilized.

Believe it or not, but it's something I'm dying to know more of and knows nothing, namely the relationship between Ethnic Ukrainians and Russian-Ukrainians. I've never met the former. Just remember when my wife and me had a vacation in Koktebel, the owner (apparently a Russian-Ukrainian), made only one demand: no Ukrainians. My wife told me and I didn't understand and still don't get the big Picture here. (maybe one of Our one-liners may illuminate us)... DAHHHHH....a joke


Anyhow, it's good to know you don't hate Russians as a principle. But if I may ask, how do you see Ukraine moving forward from here?

Let's assume eastern Ukraine resolves into Ukraine and there's no war anymore. Ukraine has made a move towards the west, acepting IMF loans, what do you see happening to regular People in Ukraine in the future?

[GQBlues]

...GQ, of course you are biased.  You believe the US was behind the removal of Yanukovych, which is far fetched.

Quite the contrary. It is far fetched to claim the US was not. 

...You have stated Yanukovych was removed unconstitutionally.  He wasn't.  Those are your biases.

Of course he was. There's nothing in Ukraine's constitution that was exercised in the proper removal of Yanukovich. I invite you to point it out to me. In the Constitution's article, which covered 4 measures that which a president can be removed, are: a) Impeachment; b) Death, c) Health, and d) Resignation.

None of which happened.

Or, you can just simply admit you always knew the removal was illegal because that is exactly what you said in a thread dated dated July 6, 2014. No need to post it back here and quote you to make my point. I just would like to see you be consistent with your conviction.

Again...I feel for the people of Ukraine. Everyone in this conflict is complicit to the horrors the entire country is griped with at this point. This now include innocent citizens of various countries. The US should not have been involved in Ukraine's politics nor should they have interfered with its internal affairs.

[Gator]

Of all those participating in RWD's discussions of Ukraine's turmoil, it is readily apparent that Boethius:

1.  Knows the most about the historic background leading to the conflict between Ukraine and Russia.

2.  Knows the most about the individual Ukrainian and Russian leaders.

3.  Uses and cites more sources widely recognized as independent and highly qualified.

 
Her Ukrainian roots may give her some bias.  Yet I do not think her bias is more than that expressed in others'  posts.

My wife is Russian, and I have spent much less time in Ukraine than in Russia. Yet, IMO Russia is more responsible than Ukraine for the continuing armed conflict.   Maybe this influences my assessment of Boethius. 

[Gator]

There's nothing in Ukraine's constitution that was exercised in the proper removal of Yanukovich.

This is a moot point.  Regardless of how he was "removed," the vast majority of Ukrainians rejoice in the fact that he is no longer leading Ukraine.  That chapter is finished.  Everyone is moving forward.

[GQBlues]

This is a moot point....

No it isn't. Says who exactly? In case you were taking an afternoon nappy, that IS exactly the genesis of the current conflict.

 

... Regardless of how he was "removed," the vast majority of Ukrainians rejoice in the fact that he is no longer leading Ukraine.  That chapter is finished.  Everyone is moving forward.

Citation please.

[Boethius]

Or, you can just simply admit you always knew the removal was illegal because that is exactly what you said in a thread dated dated July 6, 2014. No need to post it back here and quote you to make my point. I just would like to see you be consistent with your conviction.

I have always asserted Yanukovych lost power in a coup d'etat.  Coup d'etats, by definition, are illegal seizures of power.  However, it was not contrary to Ukraine's constitution.


Since that time, there has been a presidential election in Ukraine, in accordance with its constitution.  Therefore, the current president is validly elected.

[The Natural]

Of all those participating in RWD's discussions of Ukraine's turmoil, it is readily apparent that Boethius:

1.  Knows the most about the historic background leading to the conflict between Ukraine and Russia.

2.  Knows the most about the individual Ukrainian and Russian leaders.

3.  Uses and cites more sources widely recognized as independent and highly qualified.

 

HAIL to the Queen of the ultimate truth and well-being of all.

(Ps. where exactly do i bend down and what moment.... hmmmm im sure you will cue me on time, wont you gator.... old dear old fellow....im so new to this bowing-down thing, you see. What if i ejaculate while i see the QUEEN, will that be frowned upon do you think?  Oh, dear master, servant of the QUEEN... so many questions, so little time.... OHHHHHHHhhh()

[Boethius]

Thank you Bo. Although we don't agree on everything, between the two of us we mostly keep it civilized.

Believe it or not, but it's something I'm dying to know more of and knows nothing, namely the relationship between Ethnic Ukrainians and Russian-Ukrainians. I've never met the former. Just remember when my wife and me had a vacation in Koktebel, the owner (apparently a Russian-Ukrainian), made only one demand: no Ukrainians. My wife told me and I didn't understand and still don't get the big Picture here. (maybe one of Our one-liners may illuminate us)... DAHHHHH....a joke

Overall, Ukrainians have no animosity toward Russians, as a people.  Most of them just don't want to be ruled by Moscow.

Western Ukraine was brutally repressed by Moscow, up until the collapse.  It was ruled from Moscow, not Kyiv, like the rest of Ukraine.  In Kyiv, one could get out of joining the Komsomol, but not so in Western Ukraine.   That was strictly enforced, in every village.  So, to get ahead there, one needed to prove he/she was a devoted dog to the system.  It was just far more controlled than in other parts of Ukraine, and that had an effect on the people.  In Soviet times, they had a reputation of being "different", just "more" of everything the system demanded. 

One time, my husband and I were in Moscow, and we stopped at a restaurant.  In those days, you were seated with strangers if tables were full.  Two Georgians sat with us, young guys (about our age then, HAHA).  They asked where we were from and my husband answered "Ukraine".  They said "Oh, we served with Western Ukrainians in the army." and laughed.  My husband laughed and said, "No, no, we're from Kyiv."  It was just that "ingrained", and most of it comes from the repression, and the result that had on behaviours.

Anyhow, it's good to know you don't hate Russians as a principle. But if I may ask, how do you see Ukraine moving forward from here?

I think it will continue to be corrupt and a basket case.  Their only hope is if they can accept EU transparency rules. 

Let's assume eastern Ukraine resolves into Ukraine and there's no war anymore. Ukraine has made a move towards the west, acepting IMF loans, what do you see happening to regular People in Ukraine in the future?

It is going to be very difficult, for at least another generation.  It is not going to be as easy as it has been for the former Baltic republics, or Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary, etc.  The corruption is too entrenched.  The only thing that may save them is Ukraine's youth, and by that, I mean those under 25.  Many have traveled abroad, often getting educations established by the diaspora, as we know they need to see things beyond where they live to effect change.  That is also what a lot of the billions the US sent to Ukraine did.  The young are the ones who are ensuring Ukraine remains democratic.  They were largely the ones on Euromaidan, and a lot of their protests had to do with the removal of democratic institutions by Yanukovych (presidential control of the judiciary, tightening of what journalists could report on, as has occurred in Russia). 

At the macro level, Ukraine has to start taxing its oligarchs.  The flight of capital is a big problem.  It needs to confiscate the property of tax cheats.  It has to be draconian in this regard.

[calmissile]

This is a moot point.  Regardless of how he was "removed," the vast majority of Ukrainians rejoice in the fact that he is no longer leading Ukraine.  That chapter is finished.  Everyone is moving forward.

+1000

It seems only the Russian apologists cannot accept the fact that a grass roots Ukrainian population supported the removal of Yanukovych and wanted to rid the country of corruption.  The argument is moot.  The country is in the hands of the Ukraine people and they are no longer under the boot of a Russian puppet.

[Gator]

Citation please.

The results of the Presidential election and the events and sentiment around it. 

[GQBlues]

Oh so you really don't have any, eh?

I suspected much...

[Gator]

I did not waste my time asking you for citation refuting my statement.  However, feel free to present it now.

[GQBlues]

Riiiiiight!

 

[Gator]

HAIL to the Queen of the ultimate truth and well-being of all.

(Ps. where exactly do i bend down and what moment.... hmmmm im sure you will cue me on time, wont you gator.... old dear old fellow....im so new to this bowing-down thing, you see. What if i ejaculate while i see the QUEEN, will that be frowned upon do you think?  Oh, dear master, servant of the QUEEN... so many questions, so little time.... OHHHHHHHhhh()

In Norway today I gather there was a special on akvavit.  2L for 5 kroner.   

Her knowledge does not make her infallible.

[LiveFromUkraine]

The country is in the hands of the Ukraine people...

    Talk about gullible.

[The Natural]

. 
At the macro level, Ukraine has to start taxing its oligarchs.  The flight of capital is a big problem.  It needs to confiscate the property of tax cheats.  It has to be draconian in this regard.

Thank you Bo, I really mean it. You and me don't see ey to eye on this, but at least you do it respectfully.

Unfortunately I see only misfortune for the Ukrainian People going forward, even if they  get union and Peace. Because there will be no Peace With the devil they signed the debt papers With. It will be austerity for generations to come I'm afraid. More taxes, less in pensions, privatizations of many Things leading to increased costs of most Things.... the usual Things whenever the IMF get into it.

Bo, can I ask you this: Do you REALLY believe the US went into this mess
just to Ensure the future of the Ukrainians?

[GQBlues]

I have always asserted Yanukovych lost power in a coup d'etat.  Coup d'etats, by definition, are illegal seizures of power.  However, it was not contrary to Ukraine's constitution....

Something is amiss when you say it is illegal by definition yet assert it isn't contrary to Ukraine's constitution. It's akin to saying an illegal removal process to oust the seat of a president is lawful according to the Constitution.

Anyway, I stated the four instances in Ukraine's Constitution article regarding removal of a president. The ousting of Yanu didn't meet any of the set guidelines, so to me, that's not within the purview of the Constitution.

[Boethius]

Something is amiss when you say it is illegal by definition yet assert it isn't contrary to Ukraine's constitution. It's akin to saying an illegal removal process to oust the seat of a president is lawful according to the Constitution.

Anyway, I stated the four instances in Ukraine's Constitution article regarding removal of a president. The ousting of Yanu didn't meet any of the set guidelines, so to me, that's not within the purview of the Constitution.

The constitution never came into the picture.