Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[I/O]

Fly them in ,create a perimeter and get the job done.

Did someone mention or am I mistaken, BUKM1?

[lonedrake]

Did someone mention or am I mistaken, BUKM1?

Well I guess if you are ok with more airliners getting shot down....thats your right. Those things are mobile you know.

[Boethius]

The United States has confirmed that Russia supplied sophisticated missile launchers to separatists in eastern Ukraine and that attempts were made to move them back across the Russian border after the Thursday shoot-down of a Malaysian jet liner, a U.S. official said Saturday.


“We do believe they were trying to move back into Russia at least three Buk [missile launch] systems,” the official said. U.S. intelligence was “starting to get indications . . . a little more than a week ago” that the Russian launchers had been moved into Ukraine, said the official.


The official’s comments, made on condition of anonymity to speak about intelligence matters, came as a top Ukrainian counterintelligence official said his service has conclusive proof that Russia supplied the missile that shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 over territory controlled by the separatists. . .
Ukraine and Western officials have said that Russia is providing support and equipment to the rebels.

The Kremlin has denied that it has sent weapons to the rebels, and it has continued to take a strong line against the West even after the plane crash, issuing sanctions Saturday against 13 Americans in retaliation for U.S. sanctions that were announced the day before Thursday’s attack on the plane. . .

Vitaly Nayda, counterintelligence chief of Ukraine’s security service, offered photographs and said Ukraine has evidence of the movement of three Buk M-1 antiaircraft missile systems from rebel-held territory into Russian territory early Friday, less than 12 hours after the plane was downed. Ukrainian officials have said that a missile from a Buk M-1 launcher was used to shoot down the aircraft.

Two of the antiaircraft systems were spotted entering Russia from Ukraine at 2 a.m. Friday, he said. One had its full complement of four missiles, but the other was missing a missile, he said. Two hours later, he said, a convoy of three vehicles that included one of the launchers and a control truck crossed into Russia.

The U.S. official said they could not confirm the exact time cited by the Ukrainians.
Nayda said that Ukrainian military services had not left any operational Buk M-1 launchers in territory where the rebels could have seized them when they took over bases and territory in eastern Ukraine this year. He suggested they must have come from Russia and said Ukraine has evidence that at least one launcher system was on its territory Monday.

The rebels have denied possessing the launchers, although social media files linked to a rebel leader, Igor Girkin, appeared to boast of having the systems. The claims were deleted this week after the plane was shot down.

A top rebel leader said Saturday that his side was not tampering with the evidence, even as rebels on the scene appeared to be loading at least some parts of the plane onto trucks. The leader said he was eager for international investigators to come as soon as possible. . .


In an op-ed column in the Sunday Times, British Prime Minister David Cameron said: “The growing weight of evidence points to a clear conclusion: that flight MH17 was blown out of the sky by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area. If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilising a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/ukranian-officials-accuse-rebel-militias-of-moving-bodies-tampering-with-evidence/2014/07/19/bef07204-0f1c-11e4-b8e5-d0de80767fc2_story.html

[Shadow]

Actually the system moved in to Russia has two missiles missing, not one.
A picture and video are on Twitter.

[BillyB]

A military strategy of Donald Duck proportions. Fill a few more body bags while the existing corpses lay rotting in the summer sun? Just where would those 5000 troops unfamiliar and unprepared for the area suddenly materialise from?

Special forces are trained to go into areas they've never been in and dominate the opponent. A few days have past and they've had time to study the area which has been photographed countless times by satellites. America has divisions that are ready and can be dropped anywhere in the world within 24 hours. Drunken rebels will fill the body bags since they don't seem to want to cooperate properly. If the world, especially the countries who lost people on the flight want a proper investigation, they can get it if they're motivated enough. It's just easier to accept the status quo and do business with Russia, let this thing drag on for years, and accept more collateral damage. The price of body bags are cheaper than getting into an economic war with Russia.

[Gator]

As mentioned, the BUK being fired in error by separatists is the most likely scenario. However as far as I am informed there is something in laws that states innocent until proven guilty, and proven guilty has to be beyond reasonable doubt.

The reasonable doubt standard is used to prove a criminal conviction resulting in imprisonment.  In a civil court (e. g., fines, suspensions, sanctions, distribution of assets, etc. but no imprisonment)  the burden of proof  is merely preponderance of evidence (i. e., 60-40 is good enough to convict.   Preponderance of the evidence is the standard of proof used in Florida's controversial stand-your-ground law even if personal injury or death has resulted.

Instead of blaming and calling for sanctions, it would be better to regard this as what it is. Something nobody planned, wished or intended.

Intent is not an excuse!   Someone driving while intoxicated never intended to run a traffic light and kill an innocent family.  Such recklessness  is not excused - it is punished harshly with far more than sanctions.   

[Photo Guy]

By arming the separatists, Putin is encouraging death and destruction. His obvious goal is to undermine the new government in Kiev. He does not want the people of Ukraine to decide their own future. He wants control.

[BillyB]

By arming the separatists, Putin is encouraging death and destruction.

By stopping this behavior by force is also encouraging death and destruction. Everybody points the finger at the other guy claiming he doesn't care about lives. We can talk up a storm at the negotiating table but Russia doesn't respect those who compromise and certainly will get the better out of any deal. What Russia and the Soviets do respect is strength. If Putin knew from the beginning that lives will be lost on his side of the border instead of someone else's, this sh!t wouldn't be happening. Putin is smart and he wouldn't challenge a superior opponent if the free world were united.

[ML]

  As I, and many others have stated from our first-hand knowledge, Russian-speaking people in eastern Ukraine did NOT feel threatened by those who speak Ukrainian as their first language, or by the Ukrainian government.  Therefore Putin's stated reason to take over assist people in Crimea, and then the eastern oblasts, was simply a pretext prior to invading. 

Absolutely correct. 

I have been to Crimea and eastern Ukraine several times.

It is absurd on the face of it to claim Russian speaking people in Crimea were worried or discriminated against  . . .   Duh . . .  they were the majority.

In the east, while ethnic Russians they weren't the majority; none ever spoke of any problems they encountered in living in Ukraine. 

When I asked 'point blank' to several of them, individually at different times, all of them said they would rather stay in Ukraine than to move to anywhere in Russia.

[southernX]

I/O
agree with your sizing up of the situation ,


one thing , why are so many so sure the west is calling for war ??
russia just needs to get the hell out of ukraine ,

while i firmly believe based on the evidence russia is responsible here , it is hard to see how there will be any significant toll on them

russians when they feel under threat will suffer it with great strength and their gov will advise them its all in the name of national unity and survival
they will suffer proudly and become hell bent of vindicating their position to the wider world , no matter how backed in they are

unless the EU/US  get  alot tougher on putin , the best we can hope is that he may change tak and get his troops and support back on russian soil and leave ukraine alone

this might be a catalyst either way , to start aslow down removal or russian backed terrorists or the begining of something bigger
lets hope not


innocent people including australians have died of a result of putins decisions be in no doubt of that either way ,

sx

[I/O]

According to Abbott (Australian PM), Putin said "all the right things" during an overnight phone conversation.
 
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/mh17-tony-abbott-speaks-to-vladimir-putin-as-australia-pushes-for-un-support-for-independent-investigation-20140721-3c9mt.html

[supraman]

While I will not pretend to know much about the politics of it all .
   The only thing I do know is my lady is worried about what people here are saying about Russians .  I have told her not to worry as most Australians could not find Russia or America on a map anyway . 
     Best wishes and thoughts to all those with loved ones in areas of conflict or turmoil. All the best .
   
   

[ML]

 Putin is said "all the right things" during an overnight phone conversation.

Is this the same guy that George 'looked into his eyes.'

I read somewhere that Putin's job in East Germany was 'disinformation.'   Seems like it has served him well.

Anyone have knowledge regarding if this was his job?

[calmissile]

Yes, perhaps so. But as you, I'm perplexed that everyone seems to have reached that conclusion without any kind of investigation being done yet.
I'm wondering why we haven't heard anything of what the American spy satelittes picked up. They apparently before had full control of all troop movements on the Russian border and I'm sure they've kept a contant eye on the whole area for a long time.

I think your perplexed because you refuse to accept the obvious!  The intercepted cell calls between the Russians and the terrorists clearly show them admitting to:
1.  Bringing a  SAM across the Ukrainian border in the middle of the night......With the Russian crew with the SAM.
2.  Discussions between them that relate to taking the SAM to Donetsk and then routing it to the firing site and hiding it.
3.  Admitting to shooting down what they thought was a Ukraine cargo plane.
4.  Trying to erase the posts on social media that bragged about bringing down the plane.
5.  Discussions and photos about taking the SAM back to Russia.
6.  Several other conversations between the terrorists and their Russian handlers that point the finger to Russia.

The calls for an investigation is simply a delaying tactic to allow Putin to devise a plan to distance himself from liability and destroy the evidence.

If you need links to all the intercepted phone calls, let us know.

[calmissile]

So those who began the current war in Ukraine – the direct cause of the frightful murder of so many innocents on Flight MH17 on Thursday – really have no excuse.

" Correct and that is Russia"

There is no doubt about who they were. In any war, the aggressor is the one who makes the first move into neutral or disputed territory.
Correct, and again that was Russia interfering with Ukraine's internal business"

And that aggressor was the European Union, which rivals China as the world’s most expansionist power, swallowing countries the way performing seals swallow fish (16 gulped down since 1995).  Laughable!  What countries did the EU take by force during this period?"

Ignoring repeated and increasingly urgent warnings from Moscow, the EU – backed by the USA – sought to bring Ukraine into its orbit. It did so through violence and illegality, an armed mob and the overthrow of an elected president.  "Has he lost his mind?  Russia had no business of warning any sovereign nation that they cannot trade with whoever they want to!"

So PLEASE do not be propagandised by Thursday’s horrible slaughter into forgetting what is really going on. Powerful weapons make it all too easy for people to do stupid, frightful things. Wars make such things hugely more likely to happen.  " Russian already trying to distance itself from providing the weapons and soldiers that shot down the airliner.  I expect more of this from Russian propaganda.  'It was just an accident.  We had no idea they would use the weapons we gave them.   LOL' "

[sleepycat]

Here in Perth in Western Australia we have a miscellaneous TV channel called WestTV (channel 44 I believe). I noticed that they broadcast a half hour RT news segment everyday. Does anyone know if WestTV is at all funded by the Aus. government as I would hate to know that my tax dollars are being used to promote Russian propaganda to the Aussie public.

[calmissile]

Actually the system moved in to Russia has two missiles missing, not one.
A picture and video are on Twitter.

Yes, one for the high altitude Ukraine transport plane and the other for MH17.     

[BillyB]

why are so mnay so sure the west is calling for war ??

Notice the people who are accusing the west of calling for war after this disaster are the same people who months ago wrote it was Russia's right to send in their troops into Crimea and they have legitimate interest in east Ukraine and reserve the right to protect ethnic Russians under oppression from Nazis? War is ok when Putin wants it to protect his interests.

According to Abbott (Australian PM), Putin said "all the right things" during an overnight phone conversation.
 
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/mh17-tony-abbott-speaks-to-vladimir-putin-as-australia-pushes-for-un-support-for-independent-investigation-20140721-3c9mt.html

Australia says it has military planes ready. I'm okay with that if that's what it takes to bring home their citizens. It's a little late to get an adequate investigation though. Crime scene has been tainted most likely by the request of Putin. Journalists know what happens when they cross Putin. Those rebels know they'll get the same if they don't follow orders.


I was reading up on the BUK missile system and it does take a team of 4 highly trained personnel to start up the system and aim it properly. The plane was shot down in their first attempt so obviously the guys operating the BUK knew what they're were doing. If the BUK is ever found, I'm sure the serial numbers will tell it belongs to a Russian military air defense unit as were found those captured tanks Russia sent into Ukraine. Russia also provides the radar to the rebels to let them know what's coming their way.

[fathertime]

It appears to be a terrible error on the Russian Separatists part that killed all those innocents. 

Although it is awful, I don't think this event changes much.  The USA still hasn't reason to be over there at this point.  McCain and company calling for war are not representing what most of us want here in the USA.   Ukraine is 1 of around 200 countries worldwide and Russia is the one with the far greater interests and willingness to put it on the line in that region.   

I have so much distrust in our own govt at this point, that even though it appears this had to be done by Russian Separatists, I don't entirely rule out other things that could have happened. 

It was incredibly odd timing for this thing to happen, the day of the Israeli invasion and the day after the BRICS launched their bank.    The Russian Separatists appeared to have stalled the entire Ukraine military which seems rather ridiculous.  It would seem to me that if the Ukraine military can't dislodge 'a few hundred' Separatists, as people purport here, then something is wrong with that military.   I happen to believe it is more than a few hundred, but regardless an entire country's military should be able to trounce them.  I think if I were leader of Ukraine, I would throw everything I had at the Russian Separatists.  Send a million men if that is what it takes....why haven't they done this? Why are they pleading for international help when they have done very little to help themselves? Why aren't they manufacturing their own weapons/guns?  Why are 'we' supposed to supply them? 

I have wondered what was said between Poroshenko  and Putin?  What is it the Russia Separatists and Russia actually would like?  My belief remains that Russia didn't care to administer to the E. Ukraine lands as their own, but wanted the regions to be a part of a federation that would take Russian interests strongly into account. If that were the case, I think it would have been better for Poroshenko to have conceded that.  As it stands now, Poroshenko hasn't been able to negotiate with Putin OR rally his own country to the point of fighting the Separatists with all they have.  They would rather rely on everybody else to do what they NEED to do themselves.  IF they can't do it, then they can negotiate and get the best deal they can for themselves, and life goes on..,.at least for most of us.   

Fathertime! 

[calmissile]

Fathertime, please don't try to speak for most Americans.  You are an aberation!

We were wondering how long it would be before you came back and told us about the win-win for Ukraine.    

[Boethius]

There is nothing odd about the timing of the downing of MH17.  The terrorists were just emboldened.  They had already downed two Ukrainian aircraft that week, one, I believe, that day.


Were Ukraine to throw everything at the terrorists, thousands of civilians would die.  Being terrorists, the terrorists have embedded themselves among civilians, and are using them as shields.  Those cities have very high population densities.  The Ukrainian government has told civilians to leave for their safety, but not everyone will do so.

[fathertime]

Fathertime, please don't try to speak for most Americans.  You are an aberation!

We were wondering how long it would be before you came back and told us about the win-win for Ukraine.   

What are you grumbling about?  The polls show that most of US don't want us substantially involved...whether YOU like that or not.  If you are going to use a 'big' word like "aberration"  at least learn how to spell it correctly!


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

Were Ukraine to throw everything at the terrorists, thousands of civilians would die.  Being terrorists, the terrorists have embedded themselves among civilians, and are using them as shields.  Those cities have very high population densities.  The Ukrainian government has told civilians to leave for their safety, but not everyone will do so.

Well then they need to figure it out and negotiate/fight, or do both....civilians are dying anyway, and many more will continue to die the longer this drags out.  Don't expect other countries to bring their resources/people into UKRAINE'S internal struggle.  This is between Ukraine and Ukraine...and a pinch of Russian influence...or maybe a few pinches.   


 I'm sure the Ukraine military can handle this if they wanted to, or are they concerned that some of the forces would lay down their arms again for the enemy to pick up?...my impression remains, there is significant support among the local populace which is one additional complication.     


Fathertime!   

[AC]

Well then they need to figure it out and negotiate/fight, or do both....civilians are dying anyway, and many more will continue to die the longer this drags out.  Don't expect other countries to bring their resources/people into UKRAINE'S internal struggle.  This is between Ukraine and Ukraine...and a pinch of Russian influence...or maybe a few pinches.   

The rebels are led by a retired (allegedly) FSB/GRU Colonel from Russia.  He is not a Ukrainian citizen nor does he have a Ukrainian passport.  Most of the rebels are also Russian citizens.  So clearly it is not between Ukraine and Ukraine; it is between Ukraine and Russia.  Just last week a convoy of 150 trucks and heavy weapons were spotted by satellite being moved from Russia to Ukraine to supply the "separatists".  If it was between Ukraine and Ukraine, then why would Russia be supplying the separatists with heavy weapons?  Why is the commander of the separatist Army a Russian?  If you don't know what the FSB or the GRU is, then look it up.

[fathertime]

The rebels are led by a retired (allegedly) FSB/GRU Colonel from Russia.  He is not a Ukrainian citizen nor does he have a Ukrainian passport.  Most of the rebels are also Russian citizens.  So clearly it is not between Ukraine and Ukraine; it is between Ukraine and Russia.  Just last week a convoy of 150 trucks and heavy weapons were spotted by satellite being moved from Russia to Ukraine to supply the "separatists".  If it was between Ukraine and Ukraine, then why would Russia be supplying the separatists with heavy weapons?  Why is the commander of the separatist Army a Russian?  If you don't know what the FSB or the GRU is, then look it up.

I don't know about that AC, I'm seeing a lot of Separatists that seem to be Ukrainians with Russian allegiance....That seems to be a difficult thing for a lot of people to admit. 


Fathertime!