Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[Boethius]

Like the premier of the independent republic? (FSB member from Moscow)  The head of their fighting army? (FSB member/former GRU from Moscow)?  The head of their security (former head of internal affairs in Latvia during Soviet times, most recently from Moscow).


Yup, they're all "local boys".

[AC]

I don't know about that AC, I'm seeing a lot of Separatists that seem to be Ukrainians with Russian allegiance....That seems to be a difficult thing for a lot of people to admit. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Girkin


"The Russian media has identified Igor Strelkov as an officer of the Russian military reserves who has expressed hardline views on eliminating perceived enemies of the Russian state and has fought on the federal side in Russian counter-separatist campaigns in Chechnya and on the pro-Moscow separatist side in the conflict in Moldova's breakaway region of Transnistria.[10] According to various sources, Strelkov took part in the Bosnian War as a volunteer on the Serbian side, and in Chechnya under contract.[11]
The BBC reported Strelkov may have worked for Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB) in a counter-terrorism unit, citing Russian military experts.[12] According to Russian media, he has served as an FSB officer and his last role before retirement was reportedly with the FSB's Directorate for Combating International Terrorism.[13] Anonymous International disclosed what it said were Strelkov's personal emails on 12 May 2014, revealing that he had served in the FSB for 18 years from 1996 to March 2014, including in Chechnya from 1999 to 2005, The Moscow Times reported. The newspaper also said Girkin was born in Moscow and that it contacted him by email and phone but that he would not confirm the claims. A local pro-Russia militia leader in Ukraine, Vyacheslav Ponomarev, a self-described old friend of Girkin's, said the information about Girkin was true.[14] His pseudonym "Strelkov" can be roughly translated as "Rifleman"[15] or "Shooter".[16]
Alexander Cherkasov, head of Russia's leading human rights group Memorial, is convinced that the "Igor Strelkov" of Ukraine is the same person as a Russian military officer called "Strelkov", who was identified as being directly responsible for at least six instances (on four separate occasions) of the forced disappearance and presumed murder of residents of Chechnya's mountain Vedensky District village of Khatuni and nearby settlements of Makhkety and Tevzeni in 2001–2002, when "Strelkov" was attached to the 45th Detached Reconnaissance Regiment special forces unit of the Russian Airborne Troops based near Khatuni.[17][18] None of these crimes were solved by official investigations.[19] Cherkasov and other observers suspected it was in fact the same "Strelkov" until May 2014, when Igor Strelkov / Girkin himself confirmed he has been present at Khatuni in 2001, where he fought against the "local population".[17][18][20] According to Cherkasov, as a result of Strelkov's actions in Chechnya, two sisters of one of those "disappeared", Uvais Nagayev,[note 1] in effect turned to terrorism and died three years later: one of these sisters, Aminat Nagayeva, blew herself up in the 2004 Russian aircraft bombings over the Tula Oblast aboard a Tu-134 "Volga-Aeroexpress" airliner, killing 43; the other sister, Rosa Nagayeva, participated in the Beslan hostage crisis that same year.[19]"

[Boethius]

Let's add Borodai

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Borodai

and Antiufeev (googe translate required)

http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Antiufeev

Those are the three key leaders of the terrorists.  Not one is ethnically Ukrainian.  Not one has ever been a resident of Ukraine.  Curiously, all have held government positions, in the Russian FSB/GRU/military.   Is this some sort of bizarre coincidence?  Ukrainian propaganda?

[AC]

Let's add Borodai


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Borodai


and Antiufeev (googe translate required)


http://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Antiufeev




Those are the three key leaders of the terrorists.  Note one is ethnically Ukrainian.  Not one has ever been a resident of Ukraine.  Curiously, all have held government positions, in the FSB/GRU/military.   Is this some sort of bizarre coincidence?  Ukrainian propaganda?

For those who don't know, the FSB is the service which replaced the famed KGB.  It's an internal security apparatus similar to the FBI of the USA.  The GRU is a military intelligence unit.  Igor Strelkov has been accused of war crimes in Chechnya.  It should not be a surprise then, that the pro-Russian separatists have also been accused of similar crimes already in Eastern Ukraine.


And speaking of so-called "Nazi's" which is the favorite propaganda term of the Russians for Ukraianians right now, look at this excerpt about Borodai:

"In the 1990s he edited a Russian far-right ultranationalist[7][8][9] newspaper[10] Zavtra (ru) (Завтра -"Tomorrow"), run by journalist Alexander Prokhanov.
In December 2011, Borodai and Prokhanov co-founded the "patriotic" Web TV channel Den-TV (“Day”).[11][12] Den-TV's programming has regularly included Konstantin Dushenov, who has previously been imprisoned for anti-semitic incitement.[13]"  (wikipedia)

[fathertime]

Like the premier of the independent republic? (FSB member from Moscow)  The head of their fighting army? (FSB member/former GRU from Moscow)?  The head of their security (former head of internal affairs in Latvia during Soviet times, most recently from Moscow).


Yup, they're all "local boys".

Who said they were all 'local boys'?  That is moving the goalposts. The point was that there are Ukrainian's among the Russian Separatists...it appears that is most of the Pro Separatist forces. 


  It has appeared to me that there has been Russian involvement with the Russian Separatists all along.  If it is true, which it appears to me to be, then what?  There still appears to be a significant enough amount of support within the Ukrainians to create quite a ruckus. 
Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

How do you know that most of the terrorists are locals?


The unit that allegedly shot down MH17 was comprised of Russian nationals.  The unit that left Slovyansk was comprised of Russian nationals.  Bodies have been transported back to Russia for burial.  So yes, there are Russians, mostly paid mercenaries, in Donetsk.

[fathertime]

How do you know that most of the terrorists are locals?


The unit that allegedly shot down MH17 was comprised of Russian nationals.  The unit that left Slovyansk was comprised of Russian nationals.  Bodies have been transported back to Russia for burial.  So yes, there are Russians, mostly paid mercenaries, in Donetsk.

How do you know most terrorists are not locals? I've seen quite a few video clips showing Ukrainian men and families very supportive of the Russian Separatists.  That leads me to believe that there is support within the Ukrainian population. 

The unit that allegedly shot down MH17 was comprised of Russian nationals.  The unit that left Slovyansk was comprised of Russian nationals.  Bodies have been transported back to Russia for burial.  So yes, there are Russians, mostly paid mercenaries, in Donetsk.

If Russians left that doesn't prove that there wasn't many Ukrainians that stayed behind...it would only mean that the Russians who were involved left.  The final highlighted assertion you made is your opinion, but I don't believe you can prove it, but if you can I'm open to seeing the evidence.


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

How do you know the men being interviewed were Ukrainians?


Yes, they "left" in body bags.  They were replaced by other paid mercenaries.  Yesterday, Ukraine captured 28 terrorists who hold Russian passports.

[Boethius]

Russia blocked release of a UN Security Council statement calling for a full independent investigation of the shooting down of Flight MH17.  It is also expected that Russia will veto a UN Security Council resolution calling for full safe and unfettered access to the crash site, and for those responsible to be held to account.






http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-mh17-crash-make-putins-oligarchs-pay-for-ukraine-disaster-9617644.html

[The Natural]

Were Ukraine to throw everything at the terrorists, thousands of civilians would die.  Being terrorists, the terrorists have embedded themselves among civilians, and are using them as shields.  Those cities have very high population densities.

So the Kiev junta is like Israel and the rebels the Palestinians in that context?

They've already killed hundreds, at least. You say they will not kill thousands. Where do they Draw the line? Do you have a number?

The Ukrainian government has told civilians to leave for their safety, but not everyone will do so.

At the beginning when the terrorists from Kiev attacked the rebels AND the civilians in eastern Ukraine, my wife said they were prevented to leave in many cases. Stopped by their checkpoints and ordered out of buses. Women and children, having to walk a long way back into the war zone. Yeah, very Nice of them.

[Boethius]

So the Kiev junta is like Israel and the rebels the Palestinians in that context?

They've already killed hundreds, at least. You say they will not kill thousands. Where do they Draw the line? Do you have a number?

Four times as many soldiers as civilians have been killed.  That is because the military has decided not to bombard civilian populations.  The number of dead terrorists is not yet known.

Increasingly, civilians are being killed by mines and booby traps placed indiscriminately by the terrorists. 
A mass grave was reportedly found near Slovyansk this week.  The bodies showed signs of torture, though most of the victims were burned.  That is the work of your beloved freedom fighters terrorists.  So, you tell me how many is too many.

At the beginning when the terrorists from Kiev attacked the rebels AND the civilians in eastern Ukraine, my wife said they were prevented to leave in many cases. Stopped by their checkpoints and ordered out of buses. Women and children, having to walk a long way back into the war zone. Yeah, very Nice of them.

Your wife is wrong.  All checkpoints at that time were controlled by the terrorists, not the Ukrainian army.  The Ukrainian army did not take control of the checkpoints until May, when the battle to retake the city had commenced.  Even then, not all checkpoints were under Ukrainian government control, although 9 were.

[calmissile]

I wish these 'talking heads' on TV would quit making a big deal about the Flight Data Recorder and Cockpit Voice Recorder.  There is likely to be no forensic data that would be of value to determine who shot down MH17.  The FDR is likely to have recorded telemetry that only shows the results of the missile explosion and breakup of the aircraft.  After that, silence.  The CVR is likely to have no info other than routine cabin communications and talk among the crew.    Yes, my company overhauls both items and I am familiar with the technical aspects of both items as well as ACARS and other aircraft avionics.

What would be valuable is the ATC communications between the ground and the aircraft.  This is from both Ukraine ATC as well as Russian ATC since the flight was about to experience a handoff between the two agencies.  It could also be determined if MH17 was squaking the correct transponder code that was being used to track the airliner.  The on-line aviation tracking plots appear to indicate that the flight was normal, including periodic altitude readouts from the transponder.

Also, it would be interesting to know what transpired with Ukraine ATC to determine what communications were made that diverted the course North of the more common route.  Those conversations should be on the CVR but would have nothing to do with who shot the plane down.  The conversations should also have been recorded on both Ukraine and Russian ATC ground stations.

[Chelseaboy]

The Natural,

                   Where does your RUSSIAN wife get her information from regarding the events happening in eastern Ukraine ?

Your pro-Putin,anti-Ukraine government/the West posts seem to get increasingly desperate by the day .

[The Natural]

The Natural,

                   Where does your RUSSIAN wife get her information from regarding the events happening in eastern Ukraine ?

Your pro-Putin,anti-Ukraine government posts seem to get increasingly desperate by the day .

Don't you worry Your little head with that. Besides, a question followed by an insult does not elicit an answer from me. Wouldn't want to positively reinforce unwanted behaviour, you see.

[Chelseaboy]

In other words you're posting unverified rubbish comments on here from dubious sources.

[sleepycat]

Russia blocked release of a UN Security Council statement calling for a full independent investigation of the shooting down of Flight MH17.  It is also expected that Russia will veto a UN Security Council resolution calling for full safe and unfettered access to the crash site, and for those responsible to be held to account.

Oh dear! If that is true then Russia is pretty much tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

[calmissile]

Oh dear! If that is true then Russia is pretty much tried and convicted in the court of public opinion.

It's not only public opinion, the evidence seems to weigh heavily in that direction.

If you have any credible evidence to the contrary, please provide it.  We are all ears and eyes to see something that contradicts what has been presented.

[jone]

I don't know the circumstances of the UN resolution, but it could just be that the slant of the resolution was offensive to Russia.  However, typically the parties all work together to discuss what would be an acceptable resolution before voting.  The fact that this didn't happen speaks volumes about the lines that are being drawn and between Russia and the Western Block of countries.  I would also have to believe that China's vote would be significant to determine how much support Russia is getting these days. 

In other news, recent troop increases in Rostov lend strength to the idea that Russia is again contemplating invasion.  My guess is that Russia is seeing the resolve to completely encircle the separatists and close off the border and is once again faced with a decision to go or no-go based on the outcome of the next week of fighting.

[The Natural]

Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

[Boethius]

There were reports of a Russian plane close to MH17 as well. 

[fathertime]

Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

That is interesting if true.  It makes me wonder if the Ukrainian plane intentionally flew close to the passenger jet...which if true would lead to many explanations as to why...many of which make me wonder..... i dont think I trust either side to tell the whole truth.
Fathertime!

[Muzh]

Ukrainian Su-25 fighter detected in close approach to MH17 before crash - Moscow

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

Bad source of information.


I already made up a story which is more plausible than the RT one.


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17837.msg371278#msg371278

[Turboguy]

, and for those responsible to be held to account.

That is the 7th time a military has shot down a civilian airliner and actually the second in Ukraine (The Ukrainian army shot down a Russian Tupolov passenger plane in 2001).  I don't think there has ever been anyone held to account except for financial compensation to the families and a few government resignations.   In this case I doubt that even financial compensation is likely.   By the way the USA shot one down in 1988 or so with about the same number of passengers.

[Boethius]

In each of those cases, it was a state that shot down a plane.  That is not the case here.

[GQBlues]

...By the way the USA shot one down in 1988 or so with about the same number of passengers.

Again in 1996.