Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[The Natural]

Watched the Putin press conference.   Not one of his better efforts.  He appeared jumpy and unsure.  Hmm.  Not much to say differently than we've heard for the past four days.

No. And that's exactly why I posted what I did on my FB.
Putin has done what the west asked him to do.:
To get the black boxes to a safe Place (the Malysian authorities)
To fly the dead bodies to Amsterdam
To get Dutch experts on the crash site.


None of this will ever matter to the western Powers, though. Because this has NOTHING to do With Ukrainians or innocent passengers. It's all to to do With big politics. So Washington is using it's lap dogs for now to do it's talking. The Australian ass lickers first, now it's the English no. 1 lap dog Cameron that aspire no doubt to Equal or surpass the previous one, Tony Blair, who have made a handsome 50 million bucks out of being a political male prostitute for Washington and a Quisling (a Norwegian pro-nazi) for his own country.

But hey, as long as NORMAL People don't Object, that's what we deserve.

[BillyB]

I just read a link involving Ron Paul and his take on the airliner. 

In this case I agree with the opinions he is giving: 

Near the end of the article Ron mentions he could be wrong and Obama and the media could be right.

Here is another one you don't see published in Western media....Let me know what you think.

My writings doesn't get published in Western media either. The guy is in the same boat as I.

[sleepycat]

Must be real humiliating for Putin to be forced to accept these ultimatums, no 'ifs' or 'buts'. I bet he doesn't feel like such a big man now. 

[Photo Guy]

Humiliating? Yes. And imagine how humiliated Putin was when Yanukovych was kicked out. He does not deal well with humiliation...

[roykirk]

What I find particularly enlightening, although not surprising, has to do with these "local militia" in Eastern Ukraine.  Putin has claimed since the beginning that these are local Ukrainian freedom fighters that Russia has no control over.  And then over the last 18 hours or so, the outcry from leaders around the world reached a din after it was revealed bodies were being left out in the open (and then to be piled in a railroad car), international investigators were not being allowed near the scene, the black boxes had disappeared, and perhaps most disgustingly for some reason, victims credit cards were being looted.  It got so loud even Putin heard it.  Suddenly, investigators were given "unfettered access" to the crash scene, the black boxes were miraculously discovered and solemnly  handed over to Malaysian officials, and the rail cars full of decomposing remains were finally allowed to leave for Kharkiv.  Amazing how one person was able to control them so fast.  Strange, because they seemed so disorganized. 

Somebody asked early in the thread what the consequences should be.  I was still trying to be diplomatic myself until I saw a photo of a dead child laying splattered on a dirt road while some cigarette smoking goon walked past, not even covering him up.  The child looked to be about the age of my daughter.  I'm more inclined to think full scale EU and US backed invasion of Ukraine at this point.  Run those "freedom fighters" right back across the border.  Even Putin wouldn't have the guts to put up military resistance in the face of such a unified attack. 

[Photo Guy]

I'm thinking a multi-national peacekeeping force to control the Ukr-Rus border. That should destroy the separatists. No more incoming tanks or BUKs.

[The Natural]

What I find particularly enlightening, although not surprising, has to do with these "local militia" in Eastern Ukraine.  Putin has claimed since the beginning that these are local Ukrainian freedom fighters that Russia has no control over.  And then over the last 18 hours or so, the outcry from leaders around the world reached a din after it was revealed bodies were being left out in the open (and then to be piled in a railroad car), international investigators were not being allowed near the scene, the black boxes had disappeared, and perhaps most disgustingly for some reason, victims credit cards were being looted.  It got so loud even Putin heard it.  Suddenly, investigators were given "unfettered access" to the crash scene, the black boxes were miraculously discovered and solemnly  handed over to Malaysian officials, and the rail cars full of decomposing remains were finally allowed to leave for Kharkiv.  Amazing how one person was able to control them so fast.  Strange, because they seemed so disorganized. 

Somebody asked early in the thread what the consequences should be.  I was still trying to be diplomatic myself until I saw a photo of a dead child laying splattered on a dirt road while some cigarette smoking goon walked past, not even covering him up.  The child looked to be about the age of my daughter.  I'm more inclined to think full scale EU and US backed invasion of Ukraine at this point.  Run those "freedom fighters" right back across the border.  Even Putin wouldn't have the guts to put up military resistance in the face of such a unified attack.

Yes. But remember this, that this is a war zone. The Ukrainian military apparatus were still fighting in the area until a few hours ago. What do you expect? If you were protecting Your area while enemies were still shooting at you and Your neutral investigators, you too might be on the edge. Even the Sky News (English) reporter on site reported back With a little balance. But no, Balance is to be found in cosy and safe News studios or in anti-Russian private homes around the world, not in a war zone, right?.

I'm more inclined to think full scale EU and US backed invasion of Ukraine at this point.

  I'm more inclined to think full scale EU and US backed invasion of Ukraine at this point

So Your emotions and incapacity to see the big Picture drives you to the conclusion that an all-out WW3 is the answer?
Who are you and why am I answering such a fool?

[The Natural]

I'm thinking a multi-national peacekeeping force to control the Ukr-Rus border. That should destroy the separatists. No more incoming tanks or BUKs.

You better do better than this Photo guy. We have more that enough of one-liners that contribute to NOTHING

[Boethius]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=post;quote=371920;topic=17839.150;last_msg=371922

The US is not going to invade that area, and neither will any EU country provide troops.  That is again hyperbole, and yes, I've read it in Russian media (re the US).

The Ukrainian military never shot at independent investigators.  All independent investigators were there at the behest of the Ukrainian government.

What kind of "balance" are you providing, when you won't admit that the leaders of the so called "separatists" are all FSB/former FSB/GRU?

[The Natural]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=post;quote=371920;topic=17839.150;last_msg=371922

The US is not going to invade that area, and neither will any EU country provide troops.  That is again hyperbole, and yes, I've read it in Russian media (re the US).

The Ukrainian military never shot at independent investigators.  All independent investigators were there at the behest of the Ukrainian government.

What kind of "balance" are you providing, when you won't admit that the leaders of the so called "separatists" are all FSB/former FSB/GRU?

I don't defend the militia and I'm sure they comprise all kinds of Things, from the well-meaning persons wanting to defend their families from neo-nazis to Professionals being there for a good fight. What do I know? What do you know?
I mean, if the Swedes came with their rules and Language laws and Things to my area and told me to submit, even at near 50 I would pick the nearest to a weapon I had and say, HELL NO, over my dead body!

[roykirk]

Yes. But remember this, that this is a war zone. The Ukrainian military apparatus were still fighting in the area until a few hours ago. What do you expect? If you were protecting Your area while enemies were still shooting at you and Your neutral investigators, you too might be on the edge. Even the Sky News (English) reporter on site reported back With a little balance. But no, Balance is to be found in cosy and safe News studios or in anti-Russian private homes around the world, not in a war zone, right?.

I'm more inclined to think full scale EU and US backed invasion of Ukraine at this point.

  I'm more inclined to think full scale EU and US backed invasion of Ukraine at this point

So Your emotions and incapacity to see the big Picture drives you to the conclusion that an all-out WW3 is the answer?
Who are you and why am I answering such a fool?

Ah, the big picture?  The one where 300 civilians dying while impacting the ground at over 100 mph (a velocity so great their guts tend to explode out of their mouths like a volcano) is part of the greater good of, what?  Anyone who claims that this atrocity was part of some noble plan or is sad but acceptable collateral damage, is subhuman pond scum. 

[fathertime]

Somebody asked early in the thread what the consequences should be.  I was still trying to be diplomatic myself until I saw a photo of a dead child laying splattered on a dirt road while some cigarette smoking goon walked past, not even covering him up.  The child looked to be about the age of my daughter.  I'm more inclined to think full scale EU and US backed invasion of Ukraine at this point.  Run those "freedom fighters" right back across the border.  Even Putin wouldn't have the guts to put up military resistance in the face of such a unified attack.

Well Roykirk, it is a damn shame that all those innocents were killed, but a full scale invasion is hopefully not going to be on the table.  Despite what Calmissile says, the people here in the states would be outraged if we participated in that.  Our military is supposed to be about defense, not to parade around the world every time a conflict arises.    In addition, I think Russian would escalate, I realize they would lose militarily to the US and Europe, but it will not ever reach that point, nor are the nations THAT unified.  There is too big a risk of a Nuke dropping, nobody says it, but everybody knows it. 


Obama is doing right by taking the military option off the table.  The Ukraine military hasn't done very much considering it is supposed to be a very small group of people that are creating the fuss. 


Fathertime! 

[calmissile]

I don't defend the militia and I'm sure they comprise all kinds of Things, from the well-meaning persons wanting to defend their families from neo-nazis to Professionals being there for a good fight. What do I know? What do you know?
I mean, if the Swedes came with their rules and Language laws and Things to my area and told me to submit, even at near 50 I would pick the nearest to a weapon I had and say, HELL NO, over my dead body!

Roy, please tell us you are not permitted to own a weapon.     

Have another toddy and keep us entertained for a while.   WIII?  Really, what is that all about?

[The Natural]

Ah, the big picture?  The one where 300 civilians dying while impacting the ground at over 100 mph (a velocity so great their guts tend to explode out of their mouths like a volcano) is part of the greater good of, what?  Anyone who claims that this atrocity was part of some noble plan or is sad but acceptable collateral damage, is subhuman pond scum.

And as a Citizen of the empire you feel you are morally entitled to cry crocodille tears? Oh, come on, like most Americans you don't care for Foreign blodshed.

If you Call me scum, you better tell me about Your background also. Why are you so angry and also (like before) never before beeb seen on here?

[fathertime]

Humiliating? Yes. And imagine how humiliated Putin was when Yanukovych was kicked out. He does not deal well with humiliation...

I really think you are having wet dreams about Russia being humiliated.  If anything they seem to be delighted with Putin and that they picked up Crimea.   It seems your hate is affecting your judgement regarding what should be done with Russia.  It is clear that Russia is fomenting, but even if this conflict amounts to 1000's more deaths it is still one of MANY conflicts right now worldwide...it isn't worth going all-in right now....there will be another time another place.  It isn't like we (the US) hasn't created situations were 10's of 1000's were killed.  That is one reason why we have so little credibility with much of the world right now. 


Fathertime!

[roykirk]

Well Roykirk, it is a damn shame that all those innocents were killed, but a full scale invasion is hopefully not going to be on the table.  Despite what Calmissile says, the people here in the states would be outraged if we participated in that.  Our military is supposed to be about defense, not to parade around the world every time a conflict arises.    In addition, I think Russian would escalate, I realize they would lose militarily to the US and Europe, but it will not ever reach that point, nor are the nations THAT unified.  There is too big a risk of a Nuke dropping, nobody says it, but everybody knows it. 


Obama is doing right by taking the military option off the table.  The Ukraine military hasn't done very much considering it is supposed to be a very small group of people that are creating the fuss. 


Fathertime!

Part of it is admittedly just white hot anger at seeing a dead toddler laying naked in the middle of the road while a cigarette smoking member of the "local militia" walks by.  I don't claim my ideas are the most sound or that it'll ever happen.  But the other part is too many world lessons learned and wondering how long we sit on the sidelines and watch innocents be murdered?  The world sat on their hands thru Bosnia and Rwanda and did nothing.  Of course the death toll isn't comparable.  Yet.  But the politics are exactly the same..."it's a internal issue we have no business getting involved in."

[roykirk]

And as a Citizen of the empire you feel you are morally entitled to cry crocodille tears? Oh, come on, like most Americans you don't care for Foreign blodshed.

If you Call me scum, you better tell me about Your background also. Why are you so angry and also (like before) never before beeb seen on here?

I don't owe you an explanation of anything.  I've been here a hell of a lot longer than you.  That's all you need to know. 

[calmissile]

Despite what Calmissile says, the people here in the states would be outraged if we participated in that. 

There you go again, distorting peoples posts.  I actually agreed with your only accurate statement about this.

Our military is supposed to be about defense, not to parade around the world every time a conflict arises.    

Your opinion, not necessarily accurate.  We have come to the defense of our allies when in need.  Did you not support our asssitance to the allies in WWII? yes/no

In addition, I think Russian would escalate, I realize they would lose militarily to the US and Europe, but it will not ever reach that point, nor are the nations THAT unified.  There is too big a risk of a Nuke dropping, nobody says it, but everybody knows it.

Agree.  Also neither the US or Russia would deliberately launch a nuke as a first strike.  Putin would not be able to parade around without a shirt on a horse, etc.       Obama would have to worry about his post presidency image.

Obama is doing right by taking the military option off the table. 

Wrong!  The EU and/or US should provide Ukraine with weapons that are sufficient to counteract the weapons the Russians are providing the terrorists.  Agree, no US boots on the ground.

The Ukraine military hasn't done very much considering it is supposed to be a very small group of people that are creating the fuss.  
True, however the enemy is embedding itself with civilians and using them as human shields.  It does provide a perplexing problem having to fight gorilla warfare when your own people can be killed.

Fathertime!

[The Natural]

Roy, please tell us you are not permitted to own a weapon.     

Have another toddy and keep us entertained for a while.   WIII?  Really, what is that all about?

Well Cal, I don't have a gun if that's a worry. I'm a peaceful man, but if someone were to break and entering, or God help them, be a danger to my son, I would charge at him and know exactly how to break his neck  in a second. Any father would do the same I'm sure, or at least try as hell. However in my case I will not try, I will succeed in breaking the neck, and then some, of anyone threatening my Family. It's all about will, a little physical and I Train With Heavy weights. I don't need to be like a scared fat American with a gun. Around here you fight With Your fists and if you need to use a gun, you end up in prison!

[fathertime]

Part of it is admittedly just white hot anger at seeing a dead toddler laying naked in the middle of the road while a cigarette smoking member of the "local militia" walks by.  I don't claim my ideas are the most sound or that it'll ever happen.  But the other part is too many world lessons learned and wondering how long we sit on the sidelines and watch innocents be murdered?  The world sat on their hands thru Bosnia and Rwanda and did nothing.  Of course the death toll isn't comparable.  Yet.  But the politics are exactly the same..."it's a internal issue we have no business getting involved in."

I'm certain the picture you saw was a horrid site...although it appears it was an accident, knowing that small children were killed is appalling regardless.  This world is a very rough place right now.  In this last week 1000's if not 10's of 1000's were killed in worldwide violence.   I continue to believe we (the USA) have to look after our own...so does Ukraine and they are doing a terrible job of that.  If the Russian Separatists are so sparse in number they should have been trounced, instead the Ukrainians are looking for everybody else to do THEIR damn job. 


Of course in addition to all this, although unpopular here, my belief is that the west helped precipitate this conflict, so they have culpability too.


Fathertime!   

[The Natural]

I don't owe you an explanation of anything.  I've been here a hell of a lot longer than you.  That's all you need to know.

Hahahahahahaha, really... I caught my own reaction as I read this dribble and thought was it...hhahahaha

[fathertime]

Despite what Calmissile says, the people here in the states would be outraged if we participated in that.  [/size][/size]There you go again, distorting peoples posts.  I actually agreed with your only accurate statement about this.Our military is supposed to be about defense, not to parade around the world every time a conflict arises.     Your opinion, not necessarily accurate.  We have come to the defense of our allies when in need.  Did you not support our asssitance to the allies in WWII? yes/noIn addition, I think Russian would escalate, I realize they would lose militarily to the US and Europe, but it will not ever reach that point, nor are the nations THAT unified.  There is too big a risk of a Nuke dropping, nobody says it, but everybody knows it.Agree.  Also neither the US or Russia would deliberately launch a nuke as a first strike.  Putin would not be able to parade around without a shirt on a horse, etc.       Obama would have to worry about his post presidency image. Obama is doing right by taking the military option off the table.  Wrong!  The EU and/or US should provide Ukraine with weapons that are sufficient to counteract the weapons the Russians are providing the terrorists.  Agree, no US boots on the ground.The Ukraine military hasn't done very much considering it is supposed to be a very small group of people that are creating the fuss.   True, however the enemy is embedding itself with civilians and using them as human shields.  It does provide a perplexing problem having to fight gorilla warfare when your own people can be killed.


[/size]Well Calmissile I don't feel too bad if you feel that I've misrepresented your viewpoint...because you have misrepresented mine as well.  As a matter of fact this is your first reasonable post directed at me in quite some time. 

[/size]As to your points.

[/size]1. Yes I wasn't there, but I do support us getting involved in WW2, the war was already in full swing and we were likely going to be on Hitler's list at some point soon as well.  I feel that our involvement was justifiable and warranted. 

[/size]2. I disagree if you are saying that nobody would launch a first strike.  I think it could happen and it may happen at some point before I die. 

[/size]3.  We seem to agree about boots on the ground...but I don't think we should be providing arms...you know why?  Because I believe Russia will then escalate further and wipe out more people and risk wider conflict.  Our involvement alone will provoke them as we have been intervening everywhere else and I believe in their minds this is a line we will not be permitted to cross....I believe that is one big reason why we haven't already armed the Ukrainians officially.

[/size]4.  If they are using human shields then the task is difficult but must be done.  That is the way wars are fought nowadays...look around the world and you will see it is true.  If the Ukrainian leader doesn't have the stomach for it, then nobody else will put work in for him.

[/size]Fathertime!     







[/size][/font]

[calmissile]

Despite what Calmissile says, the people here in the states would be outraged if we participated in that.  [/size][/size]There you go again, distorting peoples posts.  I actually agreed with your only accurate statement about this.Our military is supposed to be about defense, not to parade around the world every time a conflict arises.     Your opinion, not necessarily accurate.  We have come to the defense of our allies when in need.  Did you not support our asssitance to the allies in WWII? yes/noIn addition, I think Russian would escalate, I realize they would lose militarily to the US and Europe, but it will not ever reach that point, nor are the nations THAT unified.  There is too big a risk of a Nuke dropping, nobody says it, but everybody knows it.Agree.  Also neither the US or Russia would deliberately launch a nuke as a first strike.  Putin would not be able to parade around without a shirt on a horse, etc.       Obama would have to worry about his post presidency image. Obama is doing right by taking the military option off the table.  Wrong!  The EU and/or US should provide Ukraine with weapons that are sufficient to counteract the weapons the Russians are providing the terrorists.  Agree, no US boots on the ground.The Ukraine military hasn't done very much considering it is supposed to be a very small group of people that are creating the fuss.   True, however the enemy is embedding itself with civilians and using them as human shields.  It does provide a perplexing problem having to fight gorilla warfare when your own people can be killed.


[/size]Well Calmissile I don't feel too bad if you feel that I've misrepresented your viewpoint...because you have misrepresented mine as well.  As a matter of fact this is your first reasonable post directed at me in quite some time. 

[/size]As to your points.

[/size]1. Yes I wasn't there, but I do support us getting involved in WW2, the war was already in full swing and we were likely going to be on Hitler's list at some point soon as well.  I feel that our involvement was justifiable and warranted. 

[/size]2. I disagree if you are saying that nobody would launch a first strike.  I think it could happen and it may happen at some point before I die. 

[/size]3.  We seem to agree about boots on the ground...but I don't think we should be providing arms...you know why?  Because I believe Russia will then escalate further and wipe out more people and risk wider conflict.  Our involvement alone will provoke them as we have been intervening everywhere else and I believe in their minds this is a line we will not be permitted to cross....I believe that is one big reason why we haven't already armed the Ukrainians officially.

[/size]4.  If they are using human shields then the task is difficult but must be done.  That is the way wars are fought nowadays...look around the world and you will see it is true.  If the Ukrainian leader doesn't have the stomach for it, then nobody else will put work in for him.

[/size]Fathertime!     







[/size][/font]

OMG, even at my age I can still read normal type size.     

Don't be too surprised if American sentiment changes toward assisting Ukraine.  It may or may not, but the additinal exposure on TV of Putins actions has already significantly changed public opinion toward Russsia in the past few days.

[BillyB]

if someone were to break and entering, or God help them, be a danger to my son, I would charge at him and know exactly how to break his neck  in a second. Any father would do the same I'm sure, or at least try as hell. However in my case I will not try, I will succeed in breaking the neck, and then some, of anyone threatening my Family.

I think you're in your every right to do that  but I'm puzzled to why you are against the Ukrainian government from killing those rebels who cross from the Russian border breaking and entering into Ukraine.

[Boethius]

I don't defend the militia and I'm sure they comprise all kinds of Things, from the well-meaning persons wanting to defend their families from neo-nazis to Professionals being there for a good fight.

Tell me what neo nazis they needed to defend themselves from.  Concrete examples, please.


The impetus for protests in Donetsk was the Rada's abolition of a 2012 language law, with the effect that Ukraine would be the sole official language of Ukraine.  That happened to be the case in any event, but other languages were given regional language status if more than 10% of the population spoke the language.  Russian, Romanian, Hungarian, and one other language (can't recall offhand which) all had regional language status.  The bill was vetoed by the acting president.

What do I know? What do you know?
I mean, if the Swedes came with their rules and Language laws and Things to my area and told me to submit, even at near 50 I would pick the nearest to a weapon I had and say, HELL NO, over my dead body!

See above.  No one came and told anyone in other regions to "submit".  At least, no one who was not paid to do so.  Furthermore, the bill was vetoed five days after it was introduced.  Those linguistic minorities would have been given those rights in any event on signing of the Association Agreement.  That was one of the reasons the 2012 language law was introduced.  So, the status quo still existed.  Of course, you won't hear that if all you are reading, or hearing, is Russian propaganda.

Now, you say you would not want Swedes deciding what language you speak.  Yet you support a position in which more than half of all Ukrainians are expected to give up their language because a foreign power deems it in their best interests.