Putin is Ruining Russia

[BillyB]

Billy, first off, if you have any idea of all at who is fighting for the rebels, that "handful of thugs" are the very troops that you in other posts laud as being so fearsome and substantial.

I was one of the first guys on the forum to say Russia is going to invade Ukraine after Yanukovych was ousted. Some didn't believe. After Crimea, I said the West's response was very weak and Russia will proceed. I recommend NATO to amass massive amounts of troops on the eastern border to discourage Putin to stop since sanctions are a joke. I knew Russian troops are in Ukraine from the beginning but the Ukrainian military still outnumbers the thugs and Russian troops.

There is much blame to go around for the Ukrainian Army to be sure, but one has to lay that blame at the feet of a pro-Russian president who was ousted.

Why are some here angry with me for calling it like it is? The Ukraine military is currently in sorry shape regardless of who's to blame yet some here are showing articles that the Ukraine military is dominating every fight. I read the article below and the Ukraine military claims they took back the airport. Who knows if they took it back or if they still lost it? Lot's of misinformation being thrown out there.

http://uatoday.tv/politics/cyborgs-stand-firm-as-fighting-intensifies-403033.html

The army today is improving and becoming less corrupt and more professional--they are getting "on the job training" as this war wears on.

Both sides are getting the same on the job training and experience. The Ukraine military will always be a step behind unless they get serious help from the West. They also need to enlist much more people to be successful if they are going at it alone.


A few days ago my wife and I watched Enemy At the Gates. It's about a Russian sniper vs a German sniper in Stalingrad during WW2. At the beginning of the movie Russian new recruits were handed rifles. There were one rifle to every new recruit with a handful of ammo. Those guys were directed to assault Germans in defensive positions. After the Germans mowed most Russians down, the remaining few would run back to their defensive position but before they could do that, the Russian troops would mow down anybody who retreated. Stalin sent Krushchev to the city to fix things right. It was determined the Russian people needed hope and a hero to show Russia is beating Germany. propaganda was in full swing and it inspired Russians to fight.


Propaganda is good for Ukraine now. They need to believe they are strong and they can win but from my point of view, it won't work here on the forum. If JayH wants to enlist the help of the West, he needs to be showing the West that Ukraine is losing. He needs to be showing us dead bodies of women and children. He needs to get us to be sympathetic to Ukraine and have us label Russians "evil", not just "aggressors."


Recently, I've seen Western nations split on what to do about sanctions. Prez of France recently met with Putin and came back to announce Putin doesn't want to annex Ukraine and sanctions should be lifted. Behind closed doors I'm sure the Prez of France is telling his fellow world leaders "Russia controlled Ukraine before, why don't we let him control it again and it'll be back to business as usual?" There's no doubt in my mind some world leaders who initially supported Ukraine's fight for freedom will now throw Ukraine under the bus so they can fix their economies and get re-elected.


I'm a supporter of Ukraine and one of Russia's biggest critics. Mendy, you weren't around here much when this crisis started but I was recommending America should've dropped in troops in Crimea to call Putin's BS when he said ethnic Russians were being attacked by Nazis. Obama should've dropped troops in under the disguise of a humanitarian mission to help ethnic Russians and keep the peace before Putin sent in his green men. Hitler wasn't supposed to do a lot of things but nobody had the guts to stop him before he grew too big. Putin is more interested in growing his military rather than fixing his economy. Is Putin making a good investment by doing that? Only if he successfully steals other people's land and resources in the coming years.

[papacool]

Last news from russian army.
In 2 days they had from their best soldiers 174 died in airport of Donetsk and 244 in hospital.
How Putin can explain this now?
Is this normal for you?

[Doll]

Papa, here is the map of Ukraine of 1925

[AC]

Doll, sure I know Sotchi, it is on black sea, and they were ukrainian speaking when Staline created federations and took these lands from Ukraine, so Russia can have access to sea without ice during winter.
Doll, I know rather well history about Russia, and Ukraine.

However you're wasting your time because the only history she knows about Ukraine and Russia was created by Stalin and the Soviet Union and then perpetuated by KGB officer Putin.

[Doll]

Last news from russian army.
In 2 days they had from their best soldiers 174 died in airport of Donetsk and 244 in hospital.
How Putin can explain this now?
Is this normal for you?

Call him

[Doll]

However you're wasting your time because the only history she knows about Ukraine and Russia was created by Stalin and the Soviet Union and then perpetuated by KGB officer Putin.

Google it and show how (hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa) Sochi was Ukranian , Crimea needs to be (hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa) Jewish and all the area till Ural or Aral was Jewish for 2000 (TWO THOUSANDS) years.

Papa made my day!

[papacool]

BillyB, maybe I cannot understand all good, I am french, but this is real, Putin said to french president he will ask all soldiers to end war in Ukraine.
This was real during only one day.
You said we are interested to do business with Russia. Not France, Germany, yes.
Russia buy near zero from France, only fruits and some cars.
And also wine, cognac champagne and parfum with some clothes for kremlin.

[AC]

Recently, I've seen Western nations split on what to do about sanctions. Prez of France recently met with Putin and came back to announce Putin doesn't want to annex Ukraine and sanctions should be lifted. Behind closed doors I'm sure the Prez of France is telling his fellow world leaders "Russia controlled Ukraine before, why don't we let him control it again and it'll be back to business as usual?" There's no doubt in my mind some world leaders who initially supported Ukraine's fight for freedom will now throw Ukraine under the bus so they can fix their economies and get re-elected.

Sad but possibly true.  Jay Billy has a point and that is when all you talk about is overwhelming Ukrainian victories, why should the West help them?

Hopefully our leaders in Congress are working out the details right now on a way to really help Ukraine out.

Congratulations to Canada, Italy and Poland for doing the most so far to help Ukraine.

[Patagonie]

BillyB, maybe I cannot understand all good, I am french, but this is real, Putin said to french president he will ask all soldiers to end war in Ukraine.
This was real during only one day.
You said we are interested to do business with Russia. Not France, Germany, yes.
Russia buy near zero from France, only fruits and some cars.
And also wine, cognac champagne and parfum with some clothes for kremlin.

Bienvenue cher concitoyen sur le forum RWD,
Nous vous souhaitons un long et agréable voyage sur ce site.

Pat

[papacool]

Doll, news from Russia with soldiers died in Ukraine and all identifications
 Aliyev Abdulhakim Bayramalievich; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
2 Sergei Andrianov; 137 DMA I / h 41450;
3 Araptanov Marseille Muharamovich; OMSBr 17 in / h 65384;
4 Robert Harutyunyan Martunovich OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
5 Barracks Vladislav; 6ème Baisse / h 54096;
6 Alexandre Baranov; 76 DSHD; in / h 74268;
7.Bushin Nicholas; Oulianovsk; 31 gardes. ODShBr in / h 73612;
8 Alexander Vedernikov; in / h 63356;
9 Volkov Sergey; 76 gardes. DSHD 234 dans ASR / h 74 268;
10 Alexander Voronov; 9 OMSBR in / h 54046;
11 Sergey Gerasimov; OBrSpN 16 in / h 54607;
12 Gusamov Rustam Rinatovich; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
13 Davoyan Armen; 9 OMSBR; in / h 54 046;
14 Danielyan Arthur Babkenovich; ASR à 247 / h 54 801;
15 Dargo Rahman Ramzanovich; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
16 Dmitry Ermakov 6ème Baisse / h 54096;
17 Alexandre Efremov; 45 OP SPN WDVV / h 28337;
18 Zakaïev Ibrahim Saïd Aminovich; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
19 Ibragimov Khizir Huseynovich; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
20 Karavaev Basile; OMSBr 21 in / h 12128;
21 Alexei V. Karpenko; 76 gardes à DSHD / h 74268;
22 Kilchenbaev Il'nur Ryazhalovich; 31 gardes. ODShBr in / h 73612;
23 Kinibaev Tleuzhan; 76 gardes à DSHD / h 74268;
24 Kichatkin Leonid Y .; DSHD 76 in / h 74268;
25 Klein Vladimir Voldemarovich; Kantemirovsky 275 dans SAP / h 48763;
26 Sergey Klimov; 31 gardes. ODShBr in / h 73612;
27 Vyacheslav Kovalev; 31 gardes. ODShBr in / h 73612;
28 Karalenka Anton; DSHD 76 in / h 74268;
29 Konstantin Kuzmin; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
30 Maksutov Ildar; 106 rs. Gardes Division Aéroportée 137. DMA I / h 41450;
31 Mahmathanov Mayrabek Mahmatsultanovich; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
32 Maxim Medvedev; 45 OP Spetsnaz Airborne w / h 28337;
33 Ministère des Affaires étrangères Mohammed Khizirovich; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
34 Misirbaev Arbi Umaltaevich; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
35 Muratov Davran; 31 gardes. ODShBr in / h 73612;
36 Nazirs Ismail Solmanovich; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
37 Alexandre Osipov; DSHD 76 in / h 74268;
38 Palkine Nicholas; Kantemirovsky 275 dans SAP / h 48763;
39 Sergey Seleznev; 331 DMA / h 71211,
40 Semakin Paul; 76 gardes à DSHD / h 74268;
41 Sokolov Nikita Ivanovitch; 76 gardes à DSHD / h 74268;
42 Peur Denis; 247 rs. ASR / u 54801;
43 Anatoly Terekhov, 7ème base militaire dans les Forces armées russes / h 09332;
44 thymine Zahar 1 MCB 33ème Maikop fin. montagne brigade d'infanterie motorisée. V / h 22179;
45 Timoshkin Alex; 76 gardes à DSHD / h 74268;
46 Mist Anton M .; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
47 Vladimir Fedorov; OMSBR 18 in / h 27777;
48 Alexei Fetisov; 8e OMSBr / h 16544;
49 Hlebkov Vitali; 6 Czestochowa en OTB / h 54096;
50 Sergey Khudyakov: V / h 08275, 200e région SWAT SF Mourmansk, p.Pechenga, p.V.Luostari
51 Sharaborin Nicholas; 247 rs. ASR / u 54801;
52 Yakovlev Artem; 106 Airborne Division

[papacool]

Merci Patagonie.

Doll, list of official army in Ukraine, between 12.000 to 15.000 soldiers.
- Groupe de travail bataillon de la 18e Brigade motorisée / Tchétchénie Hankala / Kalynovska (la soi-disant bataillon tchétchène);
- Groupe de travail bataillon de la 17e Brigade motorisée / Tchétchénie;
- Groupe de travail bataillon de la 136e brigade motorisée / Botlikh, au Daghestan;
- Groupe de travail bataillon de la 205e brigade motorisée / Budennovsk, Stavropolterritoire ;
- Groupe de travail bataillon de la 19e brigade d'infanterie motorisée / Vladikavkaz, en Ossétie du Nord;
- Groupe de travail bataillon de la 7e base militaire de l'Abkhazie occupée, la Géorgie ;
- Groupe de travail bataillon du 33e d'infanterie de montagne de la brigade / Maikop, Adygea;
- Division mixte de la 291e brigade d'artillerie / Trinité, en Ingouchie.
- Société d'économie mixte de la logistique de la brigade / région 78e Budeonovsk, Stavropol.
De Airborne:
- Groupe de travail bataillon de la division 76e de Pskov;
- Groupe de travail bataillon de la division 98e, Ivanovo;
- Groupe de travail bataillon du régiment 45 séparé Spécialité / Kubinka;
- Groupe de travail bataillon du régiment de la 247e de la 7e division de Novorossiysk.
- Groupe de travail bataillon et les divisions de l'armée de terre et les unités d'artillerie du district militaire du Sud - à partir de la 20e Brigade motorisée / Volgograd,
- 34e brigade d'infanterie de montagne / Karachay-Tcherkesses;
- Division du 943e Régiment d'artillerie / Krasnooktyabrskoe Adygea (MLRS "Hurricane")
- Division de la 1ère Brigade de missiles / Krasnodar (CRTP "Tochka-U", "Iskander-M").
- 23 e brigade d'infanterie motorisée Samara;
- Groupe de travail bataillon aéroporté - de la Brigade d'assaut aérien 56e / Volgograd,
- Des parties du GRU (Direction générale des services de renseignement du ministère de la Défense de la Russie) stationnées dans le sud de la Russie - le 10 brigade des opérations spéciales de la région / Molkino Krasnodar,
- Brigade des opérations spéciales de 22, Aksai, région de Rostov,
- 100e brigade d'opérations spéciales, Mozdok, en Ossétie du Nord,
- 346e brigade d'opérations spéciales, de Kabardino-Balkarie,
- 25 brigade d'opérations spéciales, de Stavropol;
- Brigade des opérations spéciales de la 16e, Tambov,
- 3ème brigade d'opérations spéciales, Oulianovsk.

[mendeleyev]

Billy, my sincere apologies if I misunderstood your comments.

[Belvis]

That tells me that you are influenced, negatively, by the propaganda of your government.  No one is, or was, suffering in Ukraine because of Ukrainian nationalists.  No Russian was ever denied the ability to speak Russian.  Russian media was freely available to anyone who wanted it.

Of course, I'm not seasoned to propaganda, but usually I can see the propaganda content.
You plays with words now, OK, let's say not suffering but formulate as  Russian community in Ukraine becomes tired of Ukraine. Corruption, misery, state failures became  assosiated with Ukrainian national idea, and Ukrainian national idea became associated with power of oligarchs. I state not my conclusion but transmit what Ukrainian and former Ukrainian citizens are writing in social networks.
If Ukrainians have strong motivation to fight for the developing of Ukrainian nation, Russians in Ukraine get motivation to separate from the failed state. Failed state was your definition, remember?
    But now times has changed. Nationalistic rage led to Odessa massacre, it was turning point for many men.  Odessa is turning point not because of  burned residents of Odessa, they were just victims of  fire, to some extent of accidental fire. However the reaction of Ukrainian political elite on this event was revealing, they applauded deathes of their citizens because victims were labeled as Russians.
You don't need the Russian propaganda to stimulate Donbass people on revolt, it's enough to read statements of Kievan politicians after Odessa fire.

[Faux Pas]

Of course, I'm not seasoned to propaganda, but usually I can see the propaganda content.
You plays with words now, OK, let's say not suffering but formulate as  Russian community in Ukraine becomes tired of Ukraine. Corruption, misery, state failures became  assosiated with Ukrainian national idea, and Ukrainian national idea became associated with power of oligarchs. I state not my conclusion but transmit what Ukrainian and former Ukrainian citizens are writing in social networks.
If Ukrainians have strong motivation to fight for the developing of Ukrainian nation, Russians in Ukraine get motivation to separate from the failed state. Failed state was your definition, remember?
    But now times has changed. Nationalistic rage led to Odessa massacre, it was turning point for many men.  Odessa is turning point not because of  burned residents of Odessa, they were just victims of  fire, to some extent of accidental fire. However the reaction of Ukrainian political elite on this event was revealing, they applauded deathes of their citizens because victims were labeled as Russians.
You don't need the Russian propaganda to stimulate Donbass people on revolt, it's enough to read statements of Kievan politicians after Odessa fire.

Then you change it at the ballot box within the "failed nation" of Ukraine. If you live in Ukraine and long for the Russian way of life, you return to Russia. When you are in Ukraine and you wish for a better life than what you are experiencing you change it within the system or you leave. You do not kill Ukrainians and invite a neighboring country to invade. What is there about that you find so difficult to understand?

[Belvis]

Last news from russian army.
In 2 days they had from their best soldiers 174 died in airport of Donetsk and 244 in hospital.
How Putin can explain this now?
Is this normal for you?

It's normal for war in Facebook 

[Boethius]

Of course, I'm not seasoned to propaganda, but usually I can see the propaganda content.

Your childhood was spent in a country in which every piece of news was tinted by propaganda.  Perhaps you do not even realize how much propaganda you are exposed to?

You plays with words now, OK, let's say not suffering but formulate as  Russian community in Ukraine becomes tired of Ukraine.

Why do you think Ukrainians think differently? 

However, I believe you overstate the case.  They were not tired of Ukraine.  They were, and are tired of its corruption.

Corruption, misery, state failures became  assosiated with Ukrainian national idea, and Ukrainian national idea became associated with power of oligarchs. I state not my conclusion but transmit what Ukrainian and former Ukrainian citizens are writing in social networks.

I agree with most of that, except that Ukraine's "national idea" became associated with the power of oligarchs.  I think it is more like, oligarchs, all of whom are former commies, BTW, hijacked the state for their own personal benefit.  That has not changed with this new government, either.

If Ukrainians have strong motivation to fight for the developing of Ukrainian nation, Russians in Ukraine get motivation to separate from the failed state. Failed state was your definition, remember?

But they didn't have any motivation to separate from this "failed state".  Russia is a failed state too, by my definition, but, I digress.  First, no region in Ukraine other than Crimea, had an ethnically "Russian" population.  The city of Donetsk was slightly predominantly Russian, but the surrounding region was, and is, not.  Second, you have made a jump in logic, by assuming that the local populace independently started this civil war.  They did not.  Remember, the leaders of the so called "independence movement" were all Muscovites.  They were not even residents of the region.  The war was concocted not in the streets of Ukraine, but in Moscow.  Even today, that war would peter out were it not for thousands of paid mercenaries from Russia, supported by Russian troops who supposedly are not there, and funded, with money and weaponry, by the Russian Federation.  And, if you believe this has anything to do with protecting Russian, when, if you walk down the street of Kyiv today, you will hear Russian spoken (or Russian as it is spoken in Ukraine), not Ukrainian, then you have been completely bamboozled by the propaganda emanating from your airwaves.

But now times has changed. Nationalistic rage led to Odessa massacre, it was turning point for many men.  Odessa is turning point not because of  burned residents of Odessa, they were just victims of  fire, to some extent of accidental fire. However the reaction of Ukrainian political elite on this event was revealing, they applauded deathes of their citizens because victims were labeled as Russians.

Please show me the statements of Ukraine's political elite which applauded these deaths.  IIRC, a prosecutor was appointed by Kyiv politicians to determine culpability for the fire, and the police chief lost his job for allowing the situation to deteriorate.  Moreover, many in the region, including Stirlitz, an ethnic Russian from Odessa, believes that massacre was created by the FSB.

You don't need the Russian propaganda to stimulate Donbass people on revolt, it's enough to read statements of Kievan politicians after Odessa fire.

Most in Donbas do not support the so called "rebels".  So apparently, they do need Russian propaganda.

[papacool]

Doll, when Catherine 2 created Novorossia, Crimea was not in these territories.
Doll, you must agree some evidences.
Staline created federation of Ukraine in 1926. This is history you must know.
In 1927, SSSR  created a card with all populations in Ukraine and you can see, Donbass was 90% ukrainian, not russian.
Putin create a war in Donbass who never was russian.
You can zoom on this card to verify.

About Ukraine in 1919, this can show you, DOLL that Ukraine was from Rostov to Caucase and Sotchi also!
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ykp-1919.jpg

I am not working for propaganda, I give you historical informations.

[Belvis]

Then you change it at the ballot box within the "failed nation" of Ukraine.

You're absolutely right. But when one part of society decided to change it through revolution you can't require another part of society to obey laws.

If you live in Ukraine and long for the Russian way of life, you return to Russia. When you are in Ukraine and you wish for a better life than what you are experiencing you change it within the system or you leave. You do not kill Ukrainians and invite a neighboring country to invade. What is there about that you find so difficult to understand?

What is there with you that you forget your own history? Do you know how US were born? But I agree with you, it's much better to change the system within the system. So both sides must negotiate, not shoot.

[BillyB]

Putin said to french president he will ask all soldiers to end war in Ukraine.

The soldiers may not do what Putin "asks" but the will certainly do what Putin "tells" them to do. "Ask" and "tell" are not the same thing so don't bet on this war ending soon.

Last news from russian army.
In 2 days they had from their best soldiers 174 died in airport of Donetsk and 244 in hospital.
How Putin can explain this now?

Putin denies he's involved in Ukraine and doesn't have any troops there. Putin will keep with the same story. Putin has not sent in his entire army. He sends just enough troops into Ukraine so the Ukrainian army can't win. He's doing the minimum possible to keep people thinking he's not there.

[Belvis]

Please show me the statements of Ukraine's political elite which applauded these deaths.  IIRC, a prosecutor was appointed by Kyiv politicians to determine culpability for the fire, and the police chief lost his job for allowing the situation to deteriorate.  Moreover, many in the region, including Stirlitz, an ethnic Russian from Odessa, believes that massacre was created by the FSB.

Most in Donbas do not support the so called "rebels".  So apparently, they do need Russian propaganda.

I will not seach in Facebook archives the statemens of Filatov, Avakov, Timoshenko, deputies, it too time consuming job. But I was supprised the level of hatred there, so memorize it. FSB is very powerful, I see now the rumors  that Maidan was created by FSB   
 I think you judge the Donbass mood through Ukrainian media. People there do not support war, most of them,  but still ready to fight against Ukrainian army.

[Doll]

Doll, when Catherine 2 created Novorossia, Crimea was not in these territories.
 About Ukraine in 1919, this can show you, DOLL that Ukraine was from Rostov to Caucase and Sotchi also!
 http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ykp-1919.jpg

 

So, that's why Crimea needs to be Jewish? Hahaaaaaaaa
Please please tell me more about MY country

[Boethius]

Filatov, Avakov, Timoshenko

None of whom are ethnic Ukrainians, and none of whom spoke Ukrainian, or today, speak Ukrainian, with complete fluency.

I think you judge the Donbass mood through Ukrainian media. People there do not support war, most of them,  but still ready to fight against Ukrainian army.

No, from people who fled the region.  Most of those left do not support the terrorists.  The don't care which side rules them, as long as the war stops.

[Doll]

Took me forever to understand what "card" means.
Papa, map.
I am not arguing with you about Donbass.

[Doll]

Papa, the "card" that you posted was proved to be fake decades ago
You know the history of my country? Sure. The USSR was founded in 1922.

[lordtiberius]

The soldiers may not do what Putin "asks" but the will certainly do what Putin "tells" them to do. "Ask" and "tell" are not the same thing so don't bet on this war ending soon.

Sigh

Putin denies he's involved in Ukraine and doesn't have any troops there. Putin will keep with the same story. Putin has not sent in his entire army. He sends just enough troops into Ukraine so the Ukrainian army can't win. He's doing the minimum possible to keep people thinking he's not there.

How well is that well oiled machine working out?  If this was all "planned" why all the damage to the Russian economy?  Why are these frozen conflicts are so preferable than conquest?

Russia is collapsing.  Even her friends and allies agree with this