Putin is Ruining Russia

[Doll]

@DOLL
I know you, you are in official propaganda organism, from Paris, "Institut de la Démocratie et de la Coopération". I was trying to destroy this during near one year, and you write like them.
I think I know your name and your full story. But this is not important.

OMG!

[fathertime]

Gutless wonders ?

Where were you during the Battle of Britain ?

Where were you when we  were getting blitzed by the Germans ?

You lot didn't want to get involved until Pearl Harbour,and you had no choice..you're the gutless wonders...all mouth....and Putin knows it.

When you got into a war without the Brits covering your back..Vietnam..you got your arses handed to you.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Chelasea boy on this one...we shouldn't be calling the European's gutless wonders.


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

FT, there is nothing that needs clarification. You seem to think that this is some complicated issue--sorry, it is not.

Let me give you the perspective of Mr. Putin, as I happen to know that perspective.

- The Eurasian Union cannot compete with the EU with just Russia, Kazakhstan, Belarus and Armenia.
- He needs Ukraine in the group. Period.
- Ukraine is larger, and has more in terms of population and potential trading power than Kazakhstan, Belarus and Armenia combined.
- He needs Ukraine in the group. Period.

 
I repeat, as you seem hesitant about this: Without Ukraine, there will be no Eurasian Union. Putin needs Ukraine to be in Eurasian Union. Period.

Well Mendeleyev, I am not doubting that this is very important...And why would these nations be forming a Eurasian Union?  Might have something to do with the BUCKS again?    And BUCKS equal power, security. 


It would appear you believe this Eurasian Union is the entire reason for the crisis...if not, then my apologies for misstating your viewpoint....I don't think it is the entire reason, one reason I state that, is there is really no hope of Ukraine being close to Russia like it was prior to the crisis...The best that Russia can reasonably hope for is to carve a bit for themselves and let the rest go.   IMO


Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

The EU parliament doesn't work like that. The Parliament is comprised of delegates from member nations. Those delegates are members of different parties spanning the political spectrum from far right (or neo) conservative to far left socialist, the majority of parties are centrist.

A resolution was put forward to lift the sanctions, it was voted on and the results were as follows:

For 110 (16%) Against 536 (80%) Abstentions 26 (4%)

That is an overwhelming majority by any standard.

Individual delegates from member nations vote along their party lines for the most part. So a far right party member from Slovakia might vote for lifting the sanctions whereas a far left party member also from Slovakia might vote to uphold the sanctions. They do not vote in national block.

Where I believe the media is getting those seven countries that apparently want the sanctions lifted from is that the nationalist delegates voted to lift the sanctions. The vote breakdown by individual delegates can be found here:

http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-situation-in-ukraine-joint-motion-for-resolution-paragraph-7-amendment-13d.html#/

The votewatch website will tell you how the EU parliament is comprised, vote breakdowns and commentary as well.

From the EU about website page below...

..."The Members of the European Parliament sit in political groups – they are not organised by nationality, but by political affiliation. There are currently 7 political groups in the European Parliament."...]

The composition of the individual parties and their political leanings (thru link) can be found here...

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/aboutparliament/en/007f2537e0/Political-groups.html

From what I've read, it's is the far right that consistently vote for lifting sanctions and support Russia/Putin and the centrists and far left that vote to uphold sanctions and support pro Ukraine policies in general.

Brass

Thanks for the explanation Brasscassing.


Fathertime! 

[AC]

Excellent summary, Brass.


Another thing to keep in mind is that many of the EU's far right parties get funding from Russia.

Yes thank you for the excellent summary, Brass.

I think this might be the cause of some confusion for European and Aussie posters.  In the USA the right wing party wants to maintain the sanctions and to arm Ukraine, whereas our left wing party are generally speaking pacifists who are reluctant to arm Ukraine and think that sanctions alone will work.

[AC]

Gutless wonders ?

Two words.  Neville Chamberlain.

[Boethius]

Neville Chamberlain doesn't change the fact that the Brits were fighting WWII for 2 years before the Americans joined.

[Chelseaboy]

AC,

      One word...Obama.

By the way my teeth are fine..how are yours ?

[AC]

AC,

      One word...Obama.

By the way my teeth are fine..how are yours ?

We don't like him either.  Isn't that obvious?

[AC]

Neville Chamberlain doesn't change the fact that the Brits were fighting WWII for 2 years before the Americans joined.

The continent that us Americans live on is not the European continent.  We already lost millions of soldiers lives due to the Europeans inability to get along in WWI, and just a few years later there they are getting into another major conflict that caused the loss of millions of lives again.

England and France most assuredly would have lost WWI without US involvement, and they most assuredly would have lost WWII as well.  I can't speak for Calmissile however from my point of view I see no reason why the USA should have been in any hurry to get involved in a mess created on the European continent by a bunch of arrogant and foolish Europeans.

[Chelseaboy]

The Middle East isn't your continent either..but you were only too quick to get involved in that and ask for help from "gutless wonders "/arrogant and foolish Europeans against the might of the Iraq forces.

But of course oil is involved in that isn't it .

It was noticeable how the first thing USA troops did in Iraq was head for the oil depots..that must be how they missed all those WMD.

[AC]

The Middle East isn't your continent either..but you were only too quick to get involved in that and ask for help from "gutless wonders "/arrogant and stupid Europeans against the might of the Iraq forces.

But of course oil is involved in that isn't it .

It was noticeable how the first thing USA troops did in Iraq was head for the oil depots..that must be how they missed all those WMD.

Let's go back to WWI.  We stay out of it, you and the French lose and there is no WWII as the German economy isn't so bad that millions of Germans starve which gives rise to a madman.

You're surprised that we needed to secure oil facilities against possible terrorist acts?  It's not all about profit, it's about sucurity for the Western world.

From what I've read these endless wars are financed by the Bank of England and we're just your lackeys.  Either way I don't set or have anything to do with US foreign policy. 

[sleepycat]

WOW, so this is inside scoop that Doll is a paid foreign agent.

I wonder if she was trained alongside Putin in 'disinformation.'

I hope Doll is smart enough as a businesswoman to have negotiated to be paid in Euro/USD rather than in rubbles.

[Chelseaboy]

AC,

     The propaganda in your last post equals anything the Russians can think up.

Security for the western World ?  That would explain Isis and Al-Qaeda then....not.

The USA is a lackey to the Bank of England ...seriously ?

In that case we can just sit back and tell you to sort the Russians out ..right ?

[AC]

I hope Doll is smart enough as a businesswoman to have negotiated to be paid in Euro/USD rather than in rubbles.

 

[AC]

AC,

     The propaganda in your last post equals anything the Russians can think up.

Security for the western World ?  That would explain Isis and Al-Qaeda then....not.

The USA is a lackey to the Bank of England ...seriously ?

In that case we can just sit back and tell you to sort the Russians out ..right ?

It's not propaganda.  I wish we never went there, but if our Armies do go there securing oil facilities is actually part of security.  Apparently you don't remember what Sadam Insane did when he left Kuwait during the first gulf war? 

Now since we did go we never should have left.  We should have stayed there for decades just like we did in Germany post WWII and Korea post the Korean war.  However Obama the weak (at least we agree about that) refused to negotiate a pact with the Iraqi's to keep us there, we leave and sure enough we are headed back there because of his historic weakness.

In regards to the Bank of England that was a bit of dry humor, yet it's true that bankers love wars, don't they?

As to Ukraine I hope the West arms them but other then that it's the Europeans who need to step up.  Putin's propaganda machine is trying to make it a war of Russia versus the USA and we need your help to prove him wrong.  I hope you agree with me.

[lordtiberius]

Doll reminds me of a woman I dated when I lived in Russia. I still have contact with her. Even though she knows me to be very honest and sincere, she doesn't believe when I said Russia had soldiers in Ukraine. She still believes the Russian propaganda machine. She believes that BS even though she's known me for probably 15 years and I never lied to her about anything.


She wants to find anyway she can to believe the lie there are no troops in Ukraine. She even believed that Crimea had a referendum on independence and then Russia moved in. Of course that was quite the opposite of what happened. When more Russian soldiers start going home in body bags then people will take notice. The mothers that started to want to know what was happening "Soldier's Mothers of St. Petersburg" were then declared "Foreign Agents" by Putin after they started probing the deaths of their sons. The death certificates were blank in the area of were their sons died.


I found a link from a few months ago that I read and remembered.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/01/russian-soldiers-ukraine-rights-groups


Of course Doll, and many others like her, will think that no Russian died in Ukraine.


In general the Ukrainians are doing a surprisingly good job against a much better armed and trained foe. If any of you think they are up against "rebels", then you are truly clueless. They are fighting first rate Russian troops, not rebels. Sure there are some rebels mixed in but Russia has taken over control of most the fight and put Russian troops in the key areas of battle.


The only thing keeping Ukraine from being totally overrun is Putin has to keep the intensity somewhat low to try and maintain his illusion of no Russian troops in Ukraine. If he put in a lot more, Ukraine would definitely lose but the Russian loses could be huge as well and he loses any chance for deniability. Any normally people, would see that there are clearly Russian troops invading Ukraine. Sadly people like Doll are too blinded to admit to that as it doesn't align with their narrative.


On the plus side, the lower intensity has given Ukraine more time to train supply the army better. Putin of course will be aware of that and will push to make gains before the 50k soldiers called up will be trained, supplied and deployed. While they may not be totally combat ready they will help relieve some of those who have fought so valiantly so far.


Russia has not deployed any aircraft yet either for the reason that it would be very obvious to the rest of the world as well. I wish NATO or the US would supply front line radar and SAMs to the region to support Ukraine. These would be totally defensive in nature and not easy to jam. The Russians know their equipment very well and know the weaknesses and can exploit that against the Ukrainians which have the same equipment but likely older, less capable models. This is something we should do immediately. It will help keep Putin more "honest".


I still in favor of having a few hundred cruise missiles sent into the area to support Ukraine. The US Navy would never be there either, just like all the Russian troops that would magically disappear along with the nonexistent cruise missiles...


Then Doll wouldn't have to answer the question about any Russian troops in Ukraine as just like magic, POOF! They would vanish into thin air and big, gaping craters in the ground.

330% agree

Brilliant

[lordtiberius]

At university I studied history and I really could never figure out how mainstream Germans could have supported Hitler, who created a police state in Germany and then attacked other European countries, all the while lying about his intentions to do this. After seeing a number of Russians on the forums I have gained a better appreciation of how this could happen.

And those people who think Russians might put pressure on Putin if his actions result in impoverishing them and killing their kids in foreign wars are deluded. Putin, through his control of Russian media, has completely shaped Russians' attitudes. If a Russian mother has lost her only son in combat attacking Ukraine and must live in a slit trench covered by plastic, with only a potato and a quarter wedge of cabbage to live upon, she will never blame Putin but will blame the evil Westerners.

And the irony of it all is that they, following their masters in the Kremlin, call Ukrainians Nazis.

I fear you are correct.  What do you make of the Russian opposition or Strelkov in Russia?

[lordtiberius]

I read this summary of thought in the Moscow Times today and I thought it appropriate.  I don't know if it was already posted, but if it was, I apologize. 

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-will-stick-with-putin-till-the-bitter-end/514371.html

I found the following paragraphs particularly compelling:

In summary the author states that in the current mindset:

• Without Putin, there can be no Russia.

• Isolationism — the course that Putin will pursue until the end of his life or rule, one that places Russia among the enemies of the West.

• The country will not undertake any fundamental reforms on its own initiative.

The last point — the complete rejection of any progressive development — is the end result of Russia's 25 years of post-Soviet transition. It is obvious that the post-Crimea social contract will shift Russia from the status of a weak democracy to that of a regime controlled by a single man. Now, Russia's future depends on Putin alone — his moods, his personal health and his eventual departure or death.

Comments on social networks indicate that many thousands of people clearly understand that this new social contract contains a ticking time bomb. They know that Russia can end its current isolation and embark on the path of reform only as the result of a large-scale civil conflict, a major military defeat of Russia's armed forces or else a fundamental economic collapse. The "Ukrainization" of Russian politics has devoured this country's future.

A very important post

[lordtiberius]

Perhaps we can carve off parts of Russia and give to the EU, while we're at it. The Baltic states would likely appreciate a buffer zone between themselves and Russia. So would Finland, and since we're in the mood to carve, Azerbaijan and Georgia would like some buffering, too. Hell, we could give back St Petersburg to the Swedish, Crimea back to the Tatars, and I know for certain that China and Japan would like to have a seat at the carving table, as well.

(Wait, my phone is ringing.) Okay, that was Angela on the line. She likes your plan--and she wants the keys to Kaliningrad, pronto.

Sharpen those carving knives!

    

[lordtiberius]

Yes thank you for the excellent summary, Brass.

I think this might be the cause of some confusion for European and Aussie posters.  In the USA the right wing party wants to maintain the sanctions and to arm Ukraine, whereas our left wing party are generally speaking pacifists who are reluctant to arm Ukraine and think that sanctions alone will work.

Not true.  There is bipartisan support for arming Ukraine in Congress.  Hence support for my claim that McCain is leading Obama again.  Resistance to arming Ukraine comes from Obama's state department who Ambassador Geoff Pyatt maintains there is no military solution to Ukraine.  Does anyone here believe that?

[Taz]

I don't really want to get sucked up in the WWII crap. Without the US' help, Germany would be ruling Europe. It is common knowledge that Churchill withheld information from the US in order to make it more likely for the US to be dragged into the war. When the US cracked Japanese diplomatic codes, we shared the info with the Brits.


When the Brits cracked the JN-25 (Japanese Naval codes) prior to the Pearl Harbor attack the info was never shared with us until AFTER many thousands of men lost their lives for no reason. Churchill deliberately misled FDR into thinking they would likely attach the Brits in Singapore. As a result of this deception, my family lost family members in the Navy during the attack. That it is in the past. It did wake a sleeping giant and the rest is history.


I have great respect for the Brits that I served next to in my career. My family is primarily of Irish and Scottish decent and I could never see attacking my brothers so to speak such as Russia is doing with Ukraine. of course I am aware of the IRA (Irish Republican Army) but I pretty much viewed them as terrorist though I do have serious issues with the way many of my Irish side the family was treated.


The situation in Ukraine is much different. The word must stand strong and rebuke Putin and his corrupt regime at every turn. While I have served my country honorably I have no desire to rush into war. Having said that though should war be necessary, we must prosecute to the fullest extent possible. The wars that typically have the least loss of life are the shortest ones. Better to kill 100k Russian terrorists in 2 months than to drag it out over years were a few thousand people die each day for years on end.


We (the US and the Uk) must uphold our end of the Budapest Memorandum. Obviously Russia is in clear violation of it. This agreement was the type all pacifists want to hold up as a shining example of what negotiations can achieve. The old "give peace a chance" crowd and all that. So what happens when someone is in breach of this  "contract", then what? Nag them to death with overdue book notices from the public library? It is at this point I'll reiterate my previous points about really ratcheting up economic pressure on Putin to the max. He doesn't care about loss of life yet as it isn't his own. Cripple his economy any more, make all Russians persona non grata around the world, revoke all visas, take all Russian government assets to pay the $50 billion for Yukos oil shareholders for stealing their assets, and arm the teeth out of the Ukrainians and teach them to defend themselves.


If we hadn't gutter their military as a result of the Budapest Memorandum, they'd be in a much better situation to defend themselves. So we have a responsibility to help them defend themselves from Russian aggression/invasion. Russia knows if they lose the battle in Ukraine they are seriously screwed. I would gladly donate $$$ to arm Ukraine better but it would likely find me in violation of some US anti-terrorism laws that I am unaware of. I have no issue with donating money to help support the wounded vets in Ukraine. My wife is contributing over half her salary now each month to do just that and another 15-25% goes to mentally challenged orphans in Ukraine.

[Taz]

Y'all must read this. An amazing read. Truly on topic about how Putin really screwed the pooch with Ukraine though people like Doll still won't see the forest for the trees.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/120778/eurasian-economic-union-putins-geopolitical-project-already-failing?

It talks about several areas such as the Eurasian Union. Very interesting comment here (but please read the entire article):

"At that moment, the Eurasian Union was doomed. Though Putin seemed unaware, the annexation resulted in a Pyrrhic trade—a land-grab for a peninsula in lieu of a new geopolitical pole; Crimea for an economic union of 170 million people. The curtains of neo-imperialism drew back, and Putinism was unveiled for what it was, neighbors and plans and pledges be damned. “The decision to annex Crimea changed everything,” Luca Anceschi, a lecturer in Central Asian Studies at the University of Glasgow, told me. Suddenly, the Eurasian Union was “kind of like a party where no one wants to be, like one of those awful family lunches.”

[AC]

Not true.  There is bipartisan support for arming Ukraine in Congress.  Hence support for my claim that McCain is leading Obama again.  Resistance to arming Ukraine comes from Obama's state department who Ambassador Geoff Pyatt maintains there is no military solution to Ukraine.  Does anyone here believe that?

Go back and read my quote.  I said "generally speaking".  And BTW, Obama is a Democrat.

I think this might be the cause of some confusion for European and Aussie posters.  In the USA the right wing party wants to maintain the sanctions and to arm Ukraine, whereas our left wing party are generally speaking pacifists who are reluctant to arm Ukraine and think that sanctions alone will work.

[AC]

The situation in Ukraine is much different. The word must stand strong and rebuke Putin and his corrupt regime at every turn. While I have served my country honorably I have no desire to rush into war. Having said that though should war be necessary, we must prosecute to the fullest extent possible. The wars that typically have the least loss of life are the shortest ones. Better to kill 100k Russian terrorists in 2 months than to drag it out over years were a few thousand people die each day for years on end.


We (the US and the Uk) must uphold our end of the Budapest Memorandum. Obviously Russia is in clear violation of it. This agreement was the type all pacifists want to hold up as a shining example of what negotiations can achieve. The old "give peace a chance" crowd and all that. So what happens when someone is in breach of this  "contract", then what? Nag them to death with overdue book notices from the public library? It is at this point I'll reiterate my previous points about really ratcheting up economic pressure on Putin to the max. He doesn't care about loss of life yet as it isn't his own. Cripple his economy any more, make all Russians persona non grata around the world, revoke all visas, take all Russian government assets to pay the $50 billion for Yukos oil shareholders for stealing their assets, and arm the teeth out of the Ukrainians and teach them to defend themselves.

 


Yes, the British are generally speaking good allies and excellent soldiers as well.  Pretty amazing what such a small country accomplished back when they conquered and ruled nearly every country in the World.

I figure the British, the Poles and the Germans combined could easily beat Putin's Army and evict him from Ukraine, and then he couldn't continue with his narrative that the USA is somehow behind Maidan and everything else to do with Ukraine. 

If it really was a war with the US it would have been long over with a US and Ukrainian victory.  Of course if Germany helps Ukraine he'll try to resurrect his fascist BS propaganda.  Sanctions need to be not only kept up they need to be ratcheted up as high as possible.