Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.

[Brasscasing]

I just did a quick check at Wiki and got this right off the bat that explains it.

"NATO's first involvement in both the Bosnian War and the Yugoslav wars in general came in February 1992, . when the alliance issued a statement urging all the belligerents in the conflict to allow the deployment of United Nations peacekeepers. While primarily symbolic, this statement paved the way for later NATO actions."

Russia wouldn't allow this and neither would the terrorists.

Agreed. So it once again would become a coalition of the willing (for a Ukraine intervention not an article 5).

Brass

[JayH]

 That aside it has nothing to do with making heroes what it has to do with is moral, combat effectiveness, command and control, the firm conviction that what your doing is important and relevant and arguably most importantly that you're not being placed in a no win situation or thrown away. Even volunteers of a high risk mission understand there is a quantifiable chance of meeting the objective.

Brass

On the morale question--I have commented previously that Ukrainians at large-- and particularly in the military have gathered confidence and improved morale considerably over the course of last year  .I wonder where all those posters who tried to tell us that Ukrainians would not fight are now?
From yesterday--

Soldiers Battalion "Donbass" ask to send them to the zone ATO (VIDEO)
Sunday, January 11, 2015

Soldiers Battalion Donbass staged a march in Kiev on demand send them to the counter-terrorist operation zone.



http://www.hromadske.tv/society/biitsi-batalionu--donbas--vimagayut-vidpraviti-yik/

[lordtiberius]

Ukraine doesn't need NATO intervention but they need NATO weaponry - even old Army surplus which I can assure we have acres of this stuff.  They have enough intellect and creativity to adapt these weapons for their purposes.  If NATO or even the US unilaterally to supply them, the Ukrainian military could push the Rusky out and even invade and hold Moscow.  That's not pie in the sky thinking Billy B, that is their combat record since Slaviansk.

NATO is already engaged in a conflict with Russia with all these air to air incursions.  One more incursion anywhere and NATO should invoke Article 5.

[JayH]

More on attitudes and morale of Ukrainians--
Only 10% of respondents believe that the "fight for Donbass does not make sense"

 facebook.com/ato.news 62.8% of Ukrainian confident that fight for Donbass makes sense

 These are the results of a survey conducted by the Kiev International Institute of Sociology in order ZN.UA. In particular, this view is 57.5% in the East and 36.1% (total) in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions. According to the survey, 47.5% of respondents believe that the fight for Donbass necessary because "it - the territory of Ukraine, where Ukrainian citizens live."

 Most popular this view is not in Galicia and in the Dnipropetrovsk region - 67.1%, and least-Donetsk region - 20.7%.

However, according to the survey, only 10% of respondents believe that the "fight for Donbass does not make sense, because most people who live there want to secede from Ukraine, and our soldiers have to die senselessly."
In addition, as the poll, supporters need to fight, first of all, Ukrainian and Ukrainian citizens in more than 4 times more than those who believe that "if we pass the Donbass, Russia it will not stop and will continue "(in this version voted 11.2% of respondents).

However, according to the survey, ready to fight for the Ukrainian Donbass 12 times more than those who justify the need for further wars resource need of the region (4.1%).
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/kozhen-drugiy-ukrayinec-vpevneniy-scho-viyna-za-donbas-neobhidna-socopituvannya-401933.html

[BillyB]

Ground forces are estimated to be as below which is exactly what my original  links quoted...

"Russian Ground Forces
Size
285,000 personnel (2014), incl est 80,000 conscripts"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces

I showed you a wiki link showing you Russian active duty personnel of over 750,000 based off the IISS think tank and an audit of paid military personnel. The numbers in your wiki link is claim to be from IISS think tank too. IISS also said Russia has an extra 2 million reserve soldiers and 474,000 paramilitary which adds up to 3.2 million available to fight for Russia. The link you provided states Russia has over 15,000 tanks which is a number you didn't believe earlier. Believe now? 15,000 tanks could easily be assigned to over 20 divisions. The math isn't that hard.



I don't why you are trying to minimize Russia's forces. It's no surprise they are one of the more aggressive nations in the world and it shouldn't be a surprise they possess a large military. So what is some is on reserve. America has equipment and personnel on reserve too but when it's time for a world war style war, Russia and America have plenty of equipment already produced and available and the factories to produce much more. Units you think don't exist do exist and will be reactivated.

And you?

Army

In the ten minutes I took to look research Korea (learning curve so bear with me).

I note that the U.S. Commanding General is not only in command of 28,500 U.S. servicemen, he's the de facto operational commander of the ROK forces totaling 620,000 as well.

Of course South Korea has it's own army but most Americans stationed there are near the demilitarized zone. They are there to help deter North Korea from invading and show support for South Korea. They were not designed to win a fight with North Korea.

No one nation is required to take on Russia one to one (although the UK would be more than capable).

If England can beat Europe's biggest threat, Russia, alone then America is not needed in Europe. England along with it's fellow Western European nations should have it easily taken care of. You might want to research the amount of personnel and equipment England has before letting bias against Russia cloud your judgment and favor our friends.

Even without NATO western Europe (or our two countries) wouldn't stand by while Russia gobbled up Europe one country at a time.

NATO countries will stand idle temporarily while Poland and the Baltics are consumed. Russia already proved when they place massive troop buildups on the border of Ukraine, NATO doesn't match troop buildups on their borders so NATO would be unprepared. If Germany, England and France sends their forces in before America's mainland troops show up, that would be stupid. What would be the rush for them to do that when they know America will eventually show up for the fight? Before entering the fight, NATO will give Russia warnings to leave before entering the battle just as we did a weaker country named Iraq when they occupied Kuwait. NATO's first option will be to avoid a fight before fighting to liberate their member nations. Western European nations aren't prepared for a major fight as much as you want to believe. They have a habit of not taking security seriously by underfunding their militaries and failing to perform their duties in recent missions.


If Putin lets his anger get the better of him and he decides to roll into Poland and the Baltics, he doesn't face much risk in losing Russia. NATO, with America's mainland troops, will eventually win and liberate Poland and the Baltics but we will not go into Russia. They have too many tactical nukes that will do serious damage to our armies and I'm sure Putin will threaten to use them before losing Russia. The West is too kind anyway. If we can give Saddam Insane a second chance, surely we will give a more dangerous Putin a second chance before entering Russia costing massive amounts of lives should Putin cross the line. In the event of war, I don't see Russia losing their country even if America kicks Russia's azz.

[JayH]

1/NATO countries will stand idle temporarily while Poland and the Baltics are consumed.
2/If Germany, England and France sends their forces in before America's mainland troops show up, that would be stupid. What would be the rush for them to do that when they know America will eventually show up for the fight?
3/Before entering the fight, NATO will give Russia warnings to leave before entering the battle just as we did a weaker country named Iraq when they occupied Kuwait. NATO's first option will be to avoid a fight before fighting to liberate their member nations
.4/ Western European nations aren't prepared for a major fight as much as you want to believe. They have a habit of not taking security seriously by underfunding their militaries and failing to perform their duties in recent missions.


5/If Putin lets his anger get the better of him and he decides to roll into Poland and the Baltics, he doesn't face much risk in losing Russia.
6/NATO, with America's mainland troops, will eventually win and liberate Poland and the Baltics but we will not go into Russia. They have too many tactical nukes that will do serious damage to our armies and I'm sure Putin will threaten to use them before losing Russia.
7/The West is too kind anyway. If we can give Saddam Insane a second chance, surely we will give a more dangerous Putin a second chance before entering Russia costing massive amounts of lives should Putin cross the line.
 8/In the event of war, I don't see Russia losing their country even if America kicks Russia's azz.

I broke this up as an easier way to see what you are saying--
Replies!!
1/  Chances are a declaration of war from Nato countries--PLUS allies worldwide  would accompany any invasion--it is in fact what the treaty does--not leave any one country alone to defend themselves.
2/  Gearing up would be by all--not one or two
3/  Any warnings would be prior to any Russian invasion--not after
4/ Not sure who is saying they are that prepared-- but-- be assured--they are taking it very seriously right now
5/ Putin is in grave danger of losing Russia-- there is every chance that current events will lead to the break up of Russia itself
6/ Any use of nuclear weapons will guarantee Russia's destruction
7/Lessons do get learnt-that is a learnt lesson.If it is an extreme escalation-- there will be little chance of  second opportunity
8/See answer 5/ Putins demise and the fallout could well be the start of the break up.

BB--your crystal ball is cracked in too many places!!

[JayH]

BB-- you also forgot to factor in this --

In Lviv grandmother took up the machine to protect the country

In the network appeared photos of military training in Zhidachiv. In the photo next to the courageous men and significantly grandmother in scarf, jacket and weapons in the hands

Mrs., that's 68 years working with all other participants in training at the same level, running, crawling, worked in rozviddozori, shot, lying down, standing up from his knees, changing sectors and transitions between racks, moving tactical step, carried out the collection, disassemble AKM, gear shop. On foot training came from a neighboring village, 5 km. Never miss exercise or redo it ... "- wrote on his Facebook page volunteer Natalia Ishchenko.
http://espreso.tv/news/2015/01/12/na_lvivschyni_babusya_vzyalasya_za_avtomat__schob_zakhyschaty_krayinu_foto

[JayH]

And More BB !!


The battalion Azov reported the destruction of about 170 Russian military


The battalion reported two divisions teams in other parts of the Russian-Ukrainian border
Destroyed about 170 Russian soldiers who were firing in the direction of the Azov-Mariupol.

As reported on page Euromaidan in Facebook , ATO forces attacked positions of Russian troops in Dokuchaevsk Donetsk region.

"Yesterday we covered 439 positions reactive Brigade Dokuchaevsk. According to preliminary data, completely destroyed one division. The loss of up to 170 people," - said in a statement.

The battalion noted that the weapons of the unit represented by 300-mm multiple rocket launchers Smerch, presumably part of Division - 4 rocket systems (consisting of three battalions of the brigade Twister and all - 12 units).

Presumably, the other two division teams are located in other parts of the Russian-Ukrainian border, the report says.

"439 Guards rocket artillery brigade Perekopskaya Order of Kutuzov in / h 69673 Southern Military District, based in the Astrakhan region, in Znamensk near Kapustin Yar missile," - said in a statement.

According Azov, armed brigade consists of 12 units of 300-mm MLRS Smerch (9A52) and 21 units of 220-mm MLRS Hurricane.
http://nvua.net/ukraine/v-batalone-azov-soobshchili-ob-unichtozhenii-poryadka-170-rossiyskih-voennyh--19955.html

MORE__


Granite company destroyed Assault Regiment Armed Forces, 55 killed - source
This information is published in the account "Chechen center" in Twitter.

"In the villages Granite (Donbass) 108th Airborne company of mining and assault regiment of Russian Armed Forces completely destroyed! 55 killed!" - Said in a statement.

Earlier, a group of "IS" reported that in the area of anti-terrorist operations continue to grow the number of attacks by terrorists. Starting from 18 o'clock last night, the illegal armed groups fired 22 times our military positions, including heavy weapons.

In villages Granite (Donbass) 108th Airborne company mining and assault regiment of Russian Armed Forces completely destroyed! 55 killed! pic.twitter.com/J1bOINrZpw

- Chechen Center (ChechenCenter) January 11, 2015
http://24today.net/open/268689

[JayH]

Ukrainian military will take part in 11 international exercises required for entry into NATO

Upcoming exercises will be the final stage of combat training, which contribute to the active implementation of standards in their activities of member countries of the Alliance
The Defense Ministry said that the armed forces of Ukraine this year will participate in 11 international exercises, seven of which will be abroad, 4 - on the Ukrainian territory.

"In 2015, the Armed Forces of Ukraine will take part in 11 joint land, sea and air international exercises", - said Assistant Secretary of Defense Victoria Kushnir at a briefing in Kyiv on Monday, reports Interfax-Ukraine .

According to her, these exercises will be the final stage of combat training, which contribute to the active implementation of standards in their activities of NATO member countries.

Among these teachings will be the largest Ukrainian-US exercises Sea Breeze Navy and Army troops Rapid Trident, which will be held on the territory of Ukraine. Abroad will doctrine Navy Trident Juncture.
http://nvua.net/ukraine/ukrainskie-voennye-primut-uchastie-v-11-mezhdunarodnyh-ucheniyah-neobhodimyh-dlya-vstupleniya-v-nato-minoborony-29005.html

[lordtiberius]

Billy, you have consistently overestimated Russian power and have been wrong every time.  Defeatism?

[jone]

Ukrainian military will take part in 11 international exercises required for entry into NATO

Upcoming exercises will be the final stage of combat training, which contribute to the active implementation of standards in their activities of member countries of the Alliance
The Defense Ministry said that the armed forces of Ukraine this year will participate in 11 international exercises, seven of which will be abroad, 4 - on the Ukrainian territory.

"In 2015, the Armed Forces of Ukraine will take part in 11 joint land, sea and air international exercises", - said Assistant Secretary of Defense Victoria Kushnir at a briefing in Kyiv on Monday, reports Interfax-Ukraine .

According to her, these exercises will be the final stage of combat training, which contribute to the active implementation of standards in their activities of NATO member countries.

Among these teachings will be the largest Ukrainian-US exercises Sea Breeze Navy and Army troops Rapid Trident, which will be held on the territory of Ukraine. Abroad will doctrine Navy Trident Juncture.
http://nvua.net/ukraine/ukrainskie-voennye-primut-uchastie-v-11-mezhdunarodnyh-ucheniyah-neobhodimyh-dlya-vstupleniya-v-nato-minoborony-29005.html

In no way does this mean that Ukraine is to be admitted into NATO.  It just means that they are adjusting their armed forces to qualify for NATO participation.  There are no inferences that can be drawn from this participation.

[Chelseaboy]

All this talk about the mighty Russian army/tank divisions etc etc  rolling through Europe and conquering all before them.

Russian special forces troops,presumably their elite,haven't even been able to take Donetsk airport yet...after months of trying 

I'll take the UK and German forces to hand the Russian forces a heavy beating...if it comes to any Putler invasion of Europe.

[AkMike]

With news like this I almost feel sorry for the little Munchkin!


  NOT! 

[JayH]

More for you BB--



In the Donbass there are more Russian militants than ATO forces

Reuters In Donbass increased the number of militants today, January 12, the chairman of the Verkhovna Rada Committee on National Security and Defence Sergey Pashinsky said that for the first time in the area ATO number of militants and the Russian military has exceeded the number of Ukrainian units.

According to UNIAN , he said that in the last week dramatically worsened the situation in the zone of ATO. According to him, "first recorded that the group of terrorist combat units and Russia exceeded by the number of our group."

http://24today.net/open/269122

[BillyB]

Destroyed about 170 Russian soldiers

http://nvua.net/ukraine/v-batalone-azov-soobshchili-ob-unichtozhenii-poryadka-170-rossiyskih-voennyh--19955.html


Russian Armed Forces completely destroyed! 55 killed!"

http://24today.net/open/268689

Stop this madness Jay! Propaganda is okay to lift the spirits of Ukrainians and give them energy to fight and win but it's wasting our time at the forum. I rarely read the links you post but I read these two and it's still meaningless. I'm not accusing the authors of lying but the authors are omitting truths. They don't mention how many Ukrainians died during these battles and it gives readers a false sense that Ukraine is dominating every fight. Not true. Also the military soldiers pictured are very clean. After a fire fight and rolling around on the ground dodging bullets, soldiers aren't clean but it makes Ukrainians proud to see soldiers looking fresh after a fight! Jay, if you want people to read what you link, be more responsible on what you link.

[lordtiberius]

Billy, you can't acknowledge the corn that Ukraine achieved significant military gains against long odds.  Why?  I do not know.

[BillyB]

Billy, you can't acknowledge the corn that Ukraine achieved significant military gains against long odds.  Why?  I do not know.

When Russia throws everything they got at Ukraine, only then will Ukraine face long odds. Hasn't happened yet.

[lordtiberius]

The window for that has closed.  Russia can start wars but cannot finish them.

[fathertime]

Stop this madness Jay... Jay, if you want people to read what you link, be more responsible on what you link.

+375


Fathertime! 

[JayH]

Stop this madness Jay! t Jay, if you want people to read what you link, be more responsible on what you link.

BB--really--you need to read links to get updated with current views--not views created in n earlier time.
The recent links in this thread-- are making some specific points--eg-- you say Russia would roll "easily" across Ukraine-- well-- the link to 68 yo grandmother and her local militia training should have given you a  clue-- all across Ukraine this type of training has and is going on.Literally millions have taken the opportunity  to learn basic weapon training and some more sophisticated training.
While this may not stop Russia in itself--it would mean that the advance would be at huge cost-- and ongoing cost to occupy.
Not long ago--I had to spend forum space arguing that Ukrainians would fight- people kept posting that they would not fight-- how wrong could they have been on that?
Re the links--I post for all to read and see for themselves-- as distinct from plagiarising material -- perhaps if more on the forum did read some of those links they would better informed-- and stop wasting all our time in trying to tell us black is white.

[AC]

BB--really--you need to read links to get updated with current views--not views created in n earlier time.
The recent links in this thread-- are making some specific points--eg-- you say Russia would roll "easily" across Ukraine-- well-- the link to 68 yo grandmother and her local militia training should have given you a  clue-- all across Ukraine this type of training has and is going on. Literally millions have taken the opportunity to learn basic weapon training and some more sophisticated training.

More hot air Jay.  A 68 year old grandmother is not going to stop modern weapons unleashed in a fury of destruction.  Hundreds of thousands of young 18 year olds willing to give their lives?  If they had the proper weapons, yes.  But they don't. 

[JayH]

More hot air Jay.  A 68 year old grandmother is not going to stop modern weapons unleashed in a fury of destruction.  Hundreds of thousands of young 18 year olds willing to give their lives?  If they had the proper weapons, yes.  But they don't.

Duh !!

[lordtiberius]

BB--really--you need to read links to get updated with current views--not views created in n earlier time.
The recent links in this thread-- are making some specific points--eg-- you say Russia would roll "easily" across Ukraine-- well-- the link to 68 yo grandmother and her local militia training should have given you a  clue-- all across Ukraine this type of training has and is going on.Literally millions have taken the opportunity  to learn basic weapon training and some more sophisticated training.
While this may not stop Russia in itself--it would mean that the advance would be at huge cost-- and ongoing cost to occupy.
Not long ago--I had to spend forum space arguing that Ukrainians would fight- people kept posting that they would not fight-- how wrong could they have been on that?
Re the links--I post for all to read and see for themselves-- as distinct from plagiarising material -- perhaps if more on the forum did read some of those links they would better informed-- and stop wasting all our time in trying to tell us black is white.

Back in my day, if you had an accusation, you typically had to back it up.  Billy B, you have failed to do that.  Your accusation is about as valuable as your overestimates of Russian military prowess.

[lordtiberius]

If they had the proper weapons, yes.  But they don't.

And who's fault is that exactly?  Jay H's?  Maybe the Ukrainians?  Putin's?  Give me a break . . .

[JayH]

This is a short clip that conveys some of the emotions of Ukrainians. For those in or going to Ukraine -try and attend one of these events-or when they are leaving to go to the front-then tell us all of how your emotions are.
Look at the clip and see the strain on the faces waiting-and the relief. This is a relatively small turnout-- but it conveys the feelings clearly enough.
Some on the forum think this is some theoretical war-like a video game-- and show zero empathy or understanding of how others feel.


This Is What Happens When A Volunteer Battalion Returns From Ukraine's Front Line